Haley, Pioli Smelling Like Herm, Carl

[Hammock Parties]

Haley, Pioli Smelling Like Herm, Carl

US Presswire		| More Two weeks ago, HBO aired top-secret Hard Knocks footage of Carl Peterson lifting his kingly posterior free of a chair and releasing the kind of odor one can only produce after failing to win a playoff game for 13 years. Through the unique smell-o-vision feature on my new television (scent is the most powerful memory trigger), I was instantly reminded of what it takes to ruin an NFL team.
I honestly thought that smell would never again define the Chiefs, at least not while Scott Pioli and Todd Haley are in charge. But after Sunday’s season opener, the stench emanating from the broadcast was undeniably familiar – someone was farting around at Arrowhead Stadium again. It’s only one game, but the 34-point beatdown the Bills laid on the Chiefs was so reminiscent of something cooked up by Peterson and Herm Edwards during their final season we can’t ignore it. It was 2008, the third year of Edwards’ tenure, and his team was supposed to be making progress. Following a rousing 33-19 win over the Denver Broncos – the first Chiefs win in 13 games – there was a glimmer of hope. That hope was destroyed a week later in Carolina. The 34-point beatdown the Panthers laid on Kansas City erased any doubts as to the degree of progress the Herm ‘N Carl Chiefs were making. There was none. A 1-10 finish to the 2008 season confirmed what everyone suspected the day the Panthers beat up on Kansas City. The Chiefs, after three years under the same general manager and head coach, were one of the worst teams in football and had no quarterback, no identity and little fan support. Do you see what’s happening here? We’re in year three of a new regime and the Chiefs are evoking memories of the previous one. Haley and Pioli are smelling a lot like Herm and Carl at this point. When a team gets blasted by 34 points after supposedly spending an entire offseason focused on one game, “The Patriot Way” echoes like the empty rhetoric behind “you play to win the game.” Here’s the really scary part – at this point, the comparisons between the regime that emptied Arrowhead and the one that was supposed to fill it back up go way beyond one game. • • • The offensive coordinator nightmare In three years, Edwards had two offensive coordinators – Mike Solari and Chan Gailey. In three years, Haley has had three offensive coordinators – Gailey, Charlie Weis and Bill Muir. In both cases, bad things have happened when the head coach couldn’t leave well enough alone and had to meddle. The Chiefs already appear to be missing Weis. US Presswire In Edwards’ case, after a relatively successful 2006 season, he felt the need to strip KC’s offense of its aggressiveness. He dumbed down the Air Coryell playbook to the point where the Chiefs stopped throwing the ball down the field and became one of the most predictable offenses in football. The results – the league’s worst running game and 31st ranked offense – were not pretty. Haley? His collaboration with Charlie Weis a year ago resulted in a completely shocking turnaround for quarterback Matt Cassel. But Haley, according to one report, felt the need to strip Weis of his playcalling duties at halftime of last season’s Wild-Card disaster, resulting in one of the worst-quarterbacked playoff games we’ve ever seen from a Chiefs passer. With Weis now gone for good, the Chiefs have suffered through a lackluster preseason and an opener in which Cassel literally set a record for inept passing. The results are not pretty, just as they weren't pretty when Haley dumped Gailey just before the 2009 regular season started. In both cases, we’re dealing with a head coach who couldn’t avoid meddling with offensive coordinators to the detriment of his team. Identity crisis There was no mistaking Edwards’ identity as a head coach. He wanted to win games with defense. Embarrassingly enough for Herm, his defense got worse and worse the longer he paced the sidelines at Arrowhead Stadium. The Chiefs allowed 315 points his first season, 335 his second, and an abysmal 440 his last. When it became obvious the Chiefs were a complete defensive disaster early in 2008, it was the biggest strike of all against Edwards. What good was he as a head coach if he couldn’t implement the most basic part of his football identity? What is Todd Haley’s identity? The passing game. From his early days as a wide receivers coach to passing game coordinator with the Dallas Cowboys to offensive coordinator with the high-flying Arizona Cardinals, Haley’s identity is throwing the football. Undoubtedly, he knows the modern NFL is being dominated by teams who can strike fear in opponents with the passing game. What’s scary about the Chiefs’ passing game? Mostly how bad it is. A year ago, the Chiefs were 30th in passing. Haley lost a playoff game because his passing game disappeared against a Baltimore Ravens team that, embarrassingly, wasn’t even particularly adept at rushing the passer. This season, Haley’s Leonard Pope-based passing game is actually making his predecessor’s look good. At least Herm, via Gailey, got the ball to Tony Gonzalez and Dwayne Bowe. In both cases, we’re dealing with a head coach who can’t implement the most vital part of his football identity. A shallow roster When Carl Peterson sat down to review his 2007 Chiefs’ roster, evidently this thought popped into his head: “Chris Terry and Kyle Turley at right tackle? That side of the line looks solid!” Peterson thought wrong. The results of his decision to enter the year with virtually nothing at right tackle – no proven starter, no quality depth - proved disastrous. The Chiefs started three different right tackles that year due to injury and performance issues. Turley was far too brittle to make it through an entire season, Terry far too awful, Svitek too inexperienced. Kansas City’s offensive line was terrible, and it proved to be the worst part of a horrible year. Thanks to Pioli, the Chiefs have a situation at safety. US Presswire But Peterson isn’t the only Kansas City football executive who can’t supply quality depth at an important position. Scott Pioli has been building his team for three offseasons, but somehow has managed to assemble a roster devoid of any real depth at the interior offensive line positions or at safety. One injury to Eric Berry has created a giant hole in Kansas City’s deep secondary. Pioli’s decision to stick with Jon McGraw and Sabby Piscitelli (already gaining fame for his ability to blow coverages after just one game) as backups appears horribly inept. McGraw's Kansas City legacy as a special teams player/defensive liability is well documented. The true horror is his new partner in crime. According to Pro Football Focus, Piscitelli was not just a bad player, but one of the ten worst safeties (including backups) in the entire league two years ago, missing more tackles (20) than any other defender in football. So why would he deserve a roster spot among "The Right 53," let alone be considered a top backup? Piscitelli is so bad, Chiefs fans on the internet have already created 37 derogatory nicknames either based on his odd name or simply his ability to miss tackles. The Chiefs’ safety position is in real trouble. While Peterson managed to make headlines by starting a special-teams player (Devard Darling) at wide receiver in 2008, Pioli may surpass him if he insists on platooning two special teams players (McGraw and Piscitelli) at starting strong safety for the balance of the 2011 season. Do we even want to contemplate what happens in the event of an injury to Casey Wiegmann, Ryan Lilja or Jon Asamoah? Pioli’s depth chart literally lists ONE player – rookie Rodney Hudson – as the backup at left guard, center and right guard. In both cases, we’re dealing with a football executive who has massively neglected the depth of a roster despite having multiple seasons to build it. • • • There’s no question at this point. Consider all the similarities, throw in an embarrassing first-round playoff loss for each regime, and two-plus years of Haley and Pioli is definitely taking on an odor not unlike Eau De Herm. How do the Chiefs pass the sniff test for the rest of the season? There are 15 more games. That’s plenty of time to turn things around. Perhaps the Chiefs' offense will be fine, Cassel will flourish and poor safety play won't destroy the defense. But things have to change quickly, and here’s why: Almost immediately after the 2008 Chiefs were blown out by 34 points, they let another team humiliate them in the next game. The Tennessee Titans took that honor after KC's bye week, 34-10. At that point there was no doubt – Carl and Herm had to go, and everything had to be blown up. You would hope we’re not at that point with this regime just yet, but a difficult game this weekend in Detroit looms large. A repeat of last Sunday, and the smell will only get stronger.

[Dave Lane]

Originally Posted by Gif Horse

There are more good pieces than bad on ANY winning team.

Doesn't mean it's a legit threat for a championship.

So after 2 years with the turd sandwich left by Herm they are supposed to be a championship team. JFC Clayton.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Dave Lane

So after 2 years with the turd sandwich left by Herm they are supposed to be a championship team. JFC Clayton.

Herm didn't leave a turd of a team. The pieces put in place during his time were the ones who mostly carried us to the playoffs last year.

I don't mind the way Pioli's built the team so far (to some small level), but he hasn't brought anyone here that you can call a playmaker (except for Berry... and that pick was a complete no-brainer).

[WhiteWhale]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Herm didn't leave a turd of a team. The pieces put in place during his time were the ones who mostly carried us to the playoffs last year.

I don't mind the way Pioli's built the team so far (to some small level), but he hasn't brought anyone here that you can call a playmaker (except for Berry... and that pick was a complete no-brainer).

Yes, Herm left a turd of a team. That's what 2-14 teams are. Crappy.

If you're going to give draft credit, give it to Carl. He's the one who alienated Allen... he's the one who got a king's ransom when trading allen. He's the one who makes the draft picks.

Why do people think when Herm arrived he was suddenly 100% in control of our draft process?

[Hammock Parties]

Originally Posted by Dave Lane

So after 2 years with the turd sandwich left by Herm they are supposed to be a championship team. JFC Clayton.

They are supposed to be building towards it. You know, progress? Instead of getting outscored 102-24 in their last three games?

[Dave Lane]

Actually it was Kuharick taking the draft away from Carl that got those picks here.I cant remember the stats but after Haley made the cuts in 2009 like 50 of the 61 2008 players were cut and only 2 made any other teams. That's how horrible the team was. Despite 10 good to decent players that have been coached up since then.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by WhiteWhale

Yes, Herm left a turd of a team. That's what 2-14 teams are. Crappy.

If you're going to give draft credit, give it to Carl. He's the one who alienated Allen... he's the one who got a king's ransom when trading allen. He's the one who makes the draft picks.

Why do people think when Herm arrived he was suddenly 100% in control of our draft process?

This was in response to the comment that the team left behind by Herm Edwards was a turd of a team. The personnel left behind during the Herm era, regardless of who gets credit, was really solid ESPECIALLY given the circumstances of the turd of a team Vermeil/Carl left for Herm.

Herm inherited a MUCH shittier situation than Haley/Pioli. A ton more.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Dave Lane

Actually it was Kuharick taking the draft away from Carl that got those picks here.I cant remember the stats but after Haley made the cuts in 2009 like 50 of the 61 2008 players were cut and only 2 made any other teams. That's how horrible the team was. Despite 10 good to decent players that have been coached up since then.

Like I said, Pioli has done a decent job of rounding out the team in a short period of time.

But depth is stuff that puts you over the top. Playmakers are what put you in the Super Bowl. What Herm Edwards handed Pioli/Haley was a core of terrific young players, a bunch of easy-to-cut veterans, and a squeaky clean cap situation.

Herm inherited a much, much shittier situation than Haley did. He inherited a roster full of 10 years of failed drafts and a bunch of 35 year old starters.

[WhiteWhale]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

This was in response to the comment that the team left behind by Herm Edwards was a turd of a team. The personnel left behind during the Herm era, regardless of who gets credit, was really solid ESPECIALLY given the circumstances of the turd of a team Vermeil/Carl left for Herm.

Herm inherited a MUCH shittier situation than Haley/Pioli. A ton more.

I don't agree entirely with that though, but your opinion is yours. We had a handful of good players, a handful of decent players, and a goddamn circus side show of practice squad caliber scrubs.

I don't believe teams are defined by simply how many good players they have, but how many BAD players they have. Herm inherited a team with far fewer bad players, but fewer young ascending players.

[WhiteWhale]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Like I said, Pioli has done a decent job of rounding out the team in a short period of time.

But depth is stuff that puts you over the top. Playmakers are what put you in the Super Bowl. What Herm Edwards handed Pioli/Haley was a core of terrific young players, a bunch of easy-to-cut veterans, and a squeaky clean cap situation.

Herm inherited a much, much shittier situation than Haley did. He inherited a roster full of 10 years of failed drafts and a bunch of 35 year old starters.

And we were still getting WORSE 3 years after he took over. "IT's not my team yet, It's not my team yet". Barf

At least Haley's team, at some point, showed signs of progress.

[Hammock Parties]

Originally Posted by WhiteWhale

We had a handful of good players, a handful of decent players, and a goddamn circus side show of practice squad caliber scrubs.

Here's what Pioli inherited:

Jamaal Charles
Dwayne Bowe
Branden Albert
Brian Waters
Barry Richardson

Tamba Hali
Glenn Dorsey
Derrick Johnson
Jovan Belcher
Brandon Carr
Brandon Flowers

That's half of the current starters. HALF.

You can probably add Jon McGraw to that list now, too, since he's going to be a starter.

Players who Herm inherited who were starters in his third year.

Larry Johnson
Tony Gonzalez
Brian Waters
Derrick Johnson

Herm inherited a bunch of shit that had to be replaced.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by WhiteWhale

And we were still getting WORSE 3 years after he took over. "IT's not my team yet, It's not my team yet". Barf

It's pretty much well believed that Herm demanded a rebuild and Carl Peterson wouldn't let him do it. Herm had to go above Peterson's head, and it's largely believed that Clark stripped Peterson of power and gave it to Herm/Kuharich.

The team got worse in the 3rd year because Herm took the necessary step to destroy the roster of worthless, expensive veterans and focus on developing a roster of young players. Let's not act like in the 3rd year, this was a team on the decline. That 3rd year was year 1 of a massive rebuild. Most teams can rebuild in 2-3 years. In Pioli's 4th year, it still looks a little suspect.

[WhiteWhale]

Originally Posted by Gif Horse

Here's what Pioli inherited:

Jamaal Charles
Dwayne Bowe
Branden Albert
Brian Waters
Barry Richardson

Tamba Hali
Glenn Dorsey
Derrick Johnson
Jovan Belcher
Brandon Carr
Brandon Flowers

That's half of the current starters. HALF.

You can probably add Jon McGraw to that list now, too, since he's going to be a starter.

Players who Herm inherited who were starters in his third year.

Larry Johnson
Tony Gonzalez
Brian Waters
Derrick Johnson

Herm inherited a bunch of shit that had to be replaced.

He didn't control personnel. I have no idea why Chiefs fans think he had 100% control over personnel but he didn't.

Yes, we had talent that had been acquired by the staff. Pretty much all of them save Flowers were underachievers. That's what coaches do.

Herm was our coach, not our GM. I was really clear about this.

All I'm getting out of this is that you think Carl is a better GM than Pioli, but want to credit Herm instead.

Herm didn't coach these players up. The only player he drafted all by himself was Carr. That was his birthday pick.

ALSO, most of those players were acquired in the 3rd year. We don't even fully know what we've gotten from the 2011 draft yet.

Seriously... **** Herman Edwards.

[Hammock Parties]

I don't want to credit Herm, but Carl was already here. Herm was the one who inherited almost nothing.

The current regime inherited a lot more.

[chiefzilla1501]

Carl barely deserves any credit. That guy is the reason this team fell into the shitter. Nobody's saying anything about Herm deserving credit. We're talking about the Herm era.

But if we're talking credit, Kuharich should get credit for the personnel, and Herm should get credit for forcing the youth movement.

And while Herm doesn't deserve 100% credit for draft picks made during that era, he definitely deserves some. Coaches are very involved with the personnel process. Especially given that Kuharich and Herm were mostly on the same page.

Haley's a far better coach. But I've said for years and years that Herm got a lot of shit he didn't deserve, but that he was easily the best guy to start the process of turning this team around.

Originally Posted by WhiteWhale

He didn't control personnel. I have no idea why Chiefs fans think he had 100% control over personnel but he didn't.

Yes, we had talent that had been acquired by the staff. Pretty much all of them save Flowers were underachievers. That's what coaches do.

Herm was our coach, not our GM. I was really clear about this.

All I'm getting out of this is that you think Carl is a better GM than Pioli, but want to credit Herm instead.

Herm didn't coach these players up. The only player he drafted all by himself was Carr. That was his birthday pick.

ALSO, most of those players were acquired in the 3rd year. We don't even fully know what we've gotten from the 2011 draft yet.

Seriously... **** Herman Edwards.

[WhiteWhale]

Originally Posted by Gif Horse

I don't want to credit Herm, but Carl was already here. Herm was the one who inherited almost nothing.

The current regime inherited a lot more.

I agree that Haley/Pioli inherited more young talent.

A better TEAM from top to bottom? Not chance. The team never improved under Edwards. Not season to season,and not game to game. They never, at any point, showed even a slight sign of progress.

Why did we replace kennison with bradley? Was he better?

Why did we replace Hall with Eddie Drummond? Was he better?

Why did we replace Casey with Rudy Assmonger? Was he better?

Why in the blue **** did Tony Richardson NOT retire a Chief?

Allen didn't leave KC because he was a bad pick,and we made no effort at all to replace his production which resulted in the worst pass rush in NFL history.

The holdovers obviously would not have been as young, but if you replace 7 minor positions with inferior players (younger or not) and the whole team gets worse.

Herm inherited a roster with few quality young players ( Allen and DJ) but lots of solid veteran talent. Much of which he chose to run off before he found a suitable replacement.

Haley inherited a team with a half dozen guys with good potential, but most of them were underachievers. The bottom 30 though was FAR worse than what herm inherited.

That's my opinion anyway.