Let's Talk About the Cheaters (AKA Patriots Week)

[SHOWTIME]

Nothing would make me more happy to get on track with a huge win against the most fraudulent organization in the NFL in their own building. Need Pacheco, Smith, Tranquill, and Cook back soon. Also, need Bolton to play his usual snap count.

Could be the last time Reid and Belichick faceoff. Time to put Belichick out of his misery and send him into retirement.

Chiefs - 30

Spygaters - 3

[New World Order]

Originally Posted by Hammock Parties

so the chiefs came in on tuesday apparently....andy giving them extra work

That Toney incident pushed Andy over the edge.

He’s sick of this shit

[crayzkirk]

Originally Posted by stevegroganfan

Belichick had a lowly paid peon that he
.
.
.
trick whoever may be stealing a signal.

Nice word salad, have you thought about a career in politics? This doesn't answer my question of:

Would a reasonable person believe someone would go through the trouble of taping other teams signs if it didn't give them an advantage?

Ask the Raiders about changing signs at the last minute against the Bucs.

[New World Order]

Originally Posted by crayzkirk

Nice word salad, have you thought about a career in politics? This doesn't answer my question of:

Would a reasonable person believe someone would go through the trouble of taping other teams signs if it didn't give them an advantage?

Ask the Raiders about changing signs at the last minute against the Bucs.

Why you guys suck so bad

[SHOWTIME]

Originally Posted by stevegroganfan

Belichick had a lowly paid peon that he barely even knew do the videotaping so he was hardly wasting his own time. Belichick is only slightly exaggerating when he says the information on signals was available to 80,000 people on game day. It can be gathered and has been gathered by many teams in the past including the Kansas City Chiefs. Jimmy Johnson is on record as stating that the Chiefs organization taught him how to steal signals. I doubt the Chiefs invented the stealing of football signals but they obviously did it as well for Johnson to be trained in it.

It barely helps according to most coaches (Johnson, Mangini, etc) but what the Patriots advantage in doing this was simply collecting the information a little easier. Instead of spending 2X time collecting the information, it may have been 1X. The Patriots spending less money as an organization to get a reasonable amount of signals/play tendencies allows them to spend more money as an organization elsewhere in football operations. Not sure when it changed but at a certain point, Robert Kraft began to pay Belichick X amount of dollars and then Belichick used some of those funds to pay the people in football operations. I was surprised to hear this but that is what has been reported by New England media.

Jimmy Johnson says he stopped trying to steal signals not because he was morally opposed to doing so but he just didn't find it that helpful.

If this was really so effective and the Patriots were frauds with the first 3 SB appearances/wins, they wouldn't have gone 16-0 during regular season after it stopped and made another 6 Super Bowls winning 3. This was despite NE losing multiple first round picks and Aaron Hernandez to jail.

Every NFL team over the past 40+ years probably has multiple players taking PEDs including steroids and HGH. The Patriots are not an exception with a few players being caught with some form of undisclosed PEDs and neither are the Chiefs or any other NFL team. We have no clue which team has the most users like the Oakland A's may or may not have had in baseball but whoever has the most PED users has a much bigger advantage than the Patriots ever had since once again NFL teams have been stealing signals for a long time.

Even when an NFL team basically knows which plays are being run, they don't necessarily even win when they have the superior team. See Buffalo losing to New England in the wind game. Run nearly every play by New England which didn't surprise me at all and the Bills still lost. If you can't tackle, fumble or line off sides, knowing an extra signal or two in a game probably won't save you.

And NFL players/teams are not really that dumb. If they truly are suspicious that defenders/offenses know their play calls, they can change them up and trick whoever may be stealing a signal.

This is more propaganda out of New England. Back then, very few people had cell phones so no fan could have had the opportunity to record signals. Matt Walsh, one of the camera guys, is on record saying that the Pats went to great lengths to hide what they were doing. Stealing football signals is OK, just not with the use of electronic equipment to aid the processing of interpreting it.

The 16-0 thing was pure luck. Luck against the Eagles, Ravens, and Giants in the regular season. Really, that 2007 team was morel like a 14-2 team that just got lucky.

Again, you keep coming back to the "everyone did it," so it's ok crap. Cheating better than other teams does not make you non-cheaters. And if teams change signals all the time, so it's no big deal, then I will repeat the question (which you cannot answer) - why spend 7 years and all that time, energy, and resources in recording opponents who supposedly change signals all the time?

Do you know who changed/disguised signals? Giants defensive coordinator, Steve Spagnuoulo, in SB 42 since he knew ya'll are a bunch of cheaters. And guess what? Ernie Adams couldn't help Brady and he ended up looking like an a$$ with an undefeated season on the line.

[63PatsFan]

Kind of intrigued by this game all of a sudden, given that a couple of weeks ago it looked like one of the worst matchups of recent times and one that probably would have played to a half empty stadium. The change to 1:00 Sunday, plus KC stumbling at the same moment the Pats finally show a pulse, make this a real game potentially. NE has a gritty veteran D, and Zappe gives them mobility and decisiveness that Mac Jones was not providing. The OL is healthier than it's been, and Zeke Elliott has a lot more left than I thought.

Even the draft picture has changed. The Pats currently have the #2 pick and badly need to land a Drake Maye type next April. Nobody here wanted them to win any more games cause there were a half dozen teams just below them, but most of those teams won this past week, so the Pats can go all out for this upset and still pick in the top 4. The team is also rallying around Belichick against the vulture media we have around here.

Things are trending right for NE in this game. Look for a good battle.

[Hammock Parties]

lol the change to noon only benefits KC

moron

chiefs win by double digits easily

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Originally Posted by stevegroganfan

Up until September of 2006, a reasonable person would have thought it was perfectly legal under NFL rules. A literal reading of the rules would just indicate that you couldn't tape an opponent during the current game and then use it that day. Belichick made a mistake in not reevaluating his position on the rule when the NFL sent out a letter clarifying the rule.

Belichick believes in turning over every stone to win. He told the truth when he said to Robert Kraft, video taping signals wasn't in the top 100 things most important to winning from a coaching perspective.

But if Belichick and his staff could do a 150 things to help increase the odds of a win, he would try to get as many of them done as possible.

If these tapes helped winning so much explain this.
1992 Patriots before Bledsoe 2-14 (and had been pathetic for several years)
1993 Bledsoe first year 5-7
1994 Bledsoe 10-6
1995 Bledsoe 6-9
1996 Bledsoe 11-6 (Parcells leaves after Patriots make and lose SB)
1997 Bledsoe 10-6 pete carroll named coach
1998 Bledsoe 8-6
1999 Bledsoe 8-8 Pete Carroll fired after this season
2000 Bledsoe 5-11 Belichick's first season and Patriots taping games.
2001 Bledsoe 0-2
2001 Brady 11-3 and then 3-0 SB.
2002 Brady 9-7 despite Brady leading NFL with 28 TD passes.
2003 Brady 14-2
2004 Brady 14-2

If taping offensive and defensive signals was so significant, why didn't Bledsoe do well with those tapes? Bledsoe 5-13 with Belichick sometimes taping games.

Bledsoe went 35-35 after leaving NE.

Why did Patriots continue to win after Spygate including a 17-0 regular season?

Literally every NFL team tries to steal signals which is why NFL teams change them. Why do you think coaches and not just the Patriots would sign players from other teams practice squads before they play certain opponents. In part to get signals/tendencies and any information that may give a slight edge. But ultimately if you focus too much on this stuff during a game, you may not focus on other stuff that is more important such as lining up correctly.

If it provided no advantages. Why did they do this?

This is my fatality play every time one of you turds says what you said. Game over man game over

[Hawg73]

Originally Posted by Megatron96

NE defense quietly having a really good year. Especially vs. the run. Could be a problem for KC, as Andy is going to have to lean into the run game since the WR corps is junk, and our starting RB for this game is probably going to be CEH.

Don't believe it. Instead believe the TV networks who can't come up with a single star we have on D, so put Bill's glamour shot up for the promo.

So, forget the stats and just know that Jabril Peppers and Kyle Dugger are JAGS, Bentley and Tavai are scrubs and our DL are so anonymous that their own families don't recognize them on TV.

Whatever is wrong with your WRs, we'll fix it.

Sure, sometimes we trick inexperienced QBs with unexpected switches, which we are pretty good at, but Patrick is too damn clever for us and won't be fooled like Trubisky was last week. I mean.....it's Trubisky. He doesn't even belong in the same league with the future GOAT and you all know it.

Oh, and I apologize for the flex to Sunday because we are so flipping lame this year. We'll try to get the rivalry, which was a really good one for a while there, going again once we draft a viable QB in April. 2023 has taught me that it's hard to win in the NFL without a QB who can at least manage a game. Who knew?

I'm still hoping that somehow we land Caleb Williams, because nobody would dare flex that matchup because the kid copies Pat like Stevie Ray copied Hendrix. And he did all right. The gunslinger squares off against the new kid in town would be a tasty storyline, but for now, congrats in advance on your decisive win.

[Hammock Parties]

they're pretty beat up

[Hammock Parties]

jesus i'm glad we have a dumpster fire this week because palmer is being told things that don't sound good at all

The #chiefs have always fixed their problems as a season went on. Has that burned them this year? Breaking down what's wrong with KC's offense and the three main aspects the organization is really focused on. Also Ian, Tom, and Judy join Mike and I ... even if they didn't know it pic.twitter.com/1r4A8YCRnA

— James Palmer (@JamesPalmerTV) December 13, 2023

[RaidersOftheCellar]

Originally Posted by stevegroganfan

Belichick had a lowly paid peon that he barely even knew do the videotaping so he was hardly wasting his own time. Belichick is only slightly exaggerating when he says the information on signals was available to 80,000 people on game day. It can be gathered and has been gathered by many teams in the past including the Kansas City Chiefs. Jimmy Johnson is on record as stating that the Chiefs organization taught him how to steal signals. I doubt the Chiefs invented the stealing of football signals but they obviously did it as well for Johnson to be trained in it.

It barely helps according to most coaches (Johnson, Mangini, etc) but what the Patriots advantage in doing this was simply collecting the information a little easier. Instead of spending 2X time collecting the information, it may have been 1X. The Patriots spending less money as an organization to get a reasonable amount of signals/play tendencies allows them to spend more money as an organization elsewhere in football operations. Not sure when it changed but at a certain point, Robert Kraft began to pay Belichick X amount of dollars and then Belichick used some of those funds to pay the people in football operations. I was surprised to hear this but that is what has been reported by New England media.

Jimmy Johnson says he stopped trying to steal signals not because he was morally opposed to doing so but he just didn't find it that helpful.

If this was really so effective and the Patriots were frauds with the first 3 SB appearances/wins, they wouldn't have gone 16-0 during regular season after it stopped and made another 6 Super Bowls winning 3. This was despite NE losing multiple first round picks and Aaron Hernandez to jail.

Every NFL team over the past 40+ years probably has multiple players taking PEDs including steroids and HGH. The Patriots are not an exception with a few players being caught with some form of undisclosed PEDs and neither are the Chiefs or any other NFL team. We have no clue which team has the most users like the Oakland A's may or may not have had in baseball but whoever has the most PED users has a much bigger advantage than the Patriots ever had since once again NFL teams have been stealing signals for a long time.

Even when an NFL team basically knows which plays are being run, they don't necessarily even win when they have the superior team. See Buffalo losing to New England in the wind game. Run nearly every play by New England which didn't surprise me at all and the Bills still lost. If you can't tackle, fumble or line off sides, knowing an extra signal or two in a game probably won't save you.

And NFL players/teams are not really that dumb. If they truly are suspicious that defenders/offenses know their play calls, they can change them up and trick whoever may be stealing a signal.

It’s not just about stealing signals. They had a sophisticated and time-consuming process devoted to using that information to their best advantage. Do you really think they’d perpetuate a complicated and time-consuming system for many years if it gave them little or no advantage?

Remember the Charlie Weis quote from SI? “We knew all your calls, and you still stopped us. I can’t believe it.”

And this doesn’t sound like a common occurrence either, based on the quotes:

“At one point we had a good drive going against the Patriots,” said one Lion who doesn’t want his name involved in this mess, but was willing to talk about it. “Mike Martz really had ’em going. They were getting fouled up, lining up wrong, we were moving the ball. Then boom, the headset from the sidelines to the coaches’ booth goes out.
“Next possession we were moving the ball again and the same thing happened. You know it only takes two or three plays to mess up a drive.”
Matt Millen, the Lions’ GM, was talking to Bengals’ coach Marvin Lewis at the league meetings. He started telling him the story.
“Yeah, I know,” Lewis said. “Headset went out. It happened to me in Foxboro, too.”

More from the same article:

As for why Eric Mangini wouldn’t simply set up a dummy system to beat Bill Belichick’s videotaping scheme? Apparently he did, according to an unnamed former Pats employee who talked to Dr. Z.

“He had three sets of signals being given, one real, two dummy. He had the same thing going when he beat the Patriots last year. But still, it means extra work, changing the way you prepare for a game. It means both clubs are not playing on the same level field, and that’s what’s wrong about it.”

Weird that Mangini only used this dummy system vs the Patriots, no?

[stevegroganfan]

Originally Posted by Pasta Little Brother

If it provided no advantages. Why did they do this?

This is my fatality play every time one of you turds says what you said. Game over man game over

I never said it provided "no advantages" so you have stated what I consider a false premise. If we both can get the same peons to steal signals but I can have my peons do that in 10 hours per week with videotaping while it takes your peons 20 hours with more labor intensive methods, I gain the advantage of deploying my peon on other activities.

Put another way. If an NFL team upgrades a couple of pieces of equipment in their weight room, they do so with the realization that chances are if it doesn't help in recruitment of players, it may just help them win 1 damn game in 25 year period. Maybe a whole new ulta modern weight room and training facility results in 1 win over 5-6 years. But most -- not all -- teams would still be willing to spend the money to increase odds of that extra win.

This logic is really the reason why NFL teams started hiring more assistant coaches and scouts. Long time ago, there wasn't many coaches/people in football operations but nowadays teams hire a crazy amount of coaches even though they must realize their is a diminishing returns after a certain point. Some teams don't care since in a competitive league one win over 5 to 10 year period can be important.

Belichick or any other coach in a league in which 1 regular season win over a 5 year period can be the difference between keeping your job, losing your job and never being a head coach again or losing your job and being hired elsewhere, will be happy to do something that increases the odds they get that additional win.

I can guarantee you if Belichick knew that deflate gate and Spygate would result in the loss of 2 first round picks and I believe a 3rd or 4th rounder, he would like to go back and have that all done and take his chances on what the Patriots would have done without that "minor convenience". Players win games much more than coaching and that is why the Patriots went from a bad team with a very good QB(Bledsoe) to very good team with the GOAT(Brady).

Mangini was defensive coordinator of the Patriots and he is on record saying the information wasn't very valuable. It was very minor but so isn't upgrading a few pieces of equipment in the weight room or a minor upgrade in trainers.

Every very little minor thing can add up and Belichick believed in doing as much as possible that was legal.

He was only hiding it from opponents to the extent he was since even if you think video taping in the NFL is legal from a certain area, you don't want your opponent to raise their guard more than they would have.

[RunKC]

Originally Posted by Hammock Parties

jesus i'm glad we have a dumpster fire this week because palmer is being told things that don't sound good at all

The #chiefs have always fixed their problems as a season went on. Has that burned them this year? Breaking down what's wrong with KC's offense and the three main aspects the organization is really focused on. Also Ian, Tom, and Judy join Mike and I ... even if they didn't know it pic.twitter.com/1r4A8YCRnA

— James Palmer (@JamesPalmerTV) December 13, 2023

Last year they had a major problem with the tackles giving up pressure. The offense having to be changed drastically so quickly due to the ankle sprain is one thing.

They changed the offense and won the SB. I hope they can do something similar this year bc the team is better and the WR mistakes are nowhere near as bad as a QB playing on one leg.

[Herewego]

They can try to build up this game all they want, but it's still a cakewalk.

Maybe the Pats D can keep the Chiefs under 28, but there's nothing wrong with the D and the Cheaters have nothing in the offensive tank. 27-6 and that's being kind.

[Rainbarrel]

3-10 Pats have panties squishy?