Let's talk Defensive Line

[Couch-Potato]

Went through a bunch of threads to identify all of our interests across the defensive line, is this all of them? Who else should be added to the list? Removed from the list? Should anyone be moved up or down on the draft target list?

FA Targets
-DE Yannick Ngakoue, IND
-DT Da’ron Payne, WAS
-DT Poona Ford, SEA
-DE Jadaveon Clowney, CLV
-DT Kalen Saunders, KC
-DT Greg Gains, LAR
-DT Armon Watts, CHI
-DE Ardon Key, JAX
-DE Clean Ferril, LVR
-DE Ogbonnia Okoronkwo, HOU
-DT Chris Wormley, PIT
-DT Maurice Hurst, SF
-DT Andrew Billings, CIN

Vet Trade Targets
-DE Brian Burns, CAR
-DE Chase Young, WAS
-DE Carl Granderson, New Orleans
-DE Za'Darius Smith, Minnesota
-DE D.J. Wonnum, Minnesota

1st Rd Targets
-DT Byran Breese,
-DE Lukas Van Ness, Iowa
-DE BJ Ojulari, LSU
-DE Keion White, Georgia Tech
-DE Derick Hall, Auburn
-DE Isahiah Foskey, ND
-DE Nolan Smith, Georgia
-DL Tuli Tuipulotu, USC
-DE Andre Carter, Army

2nd Rd Targets
-DT Siaki Ika, BU
-DE Will McDonald IV, Iowa St.
-DL Calijah Kancey, Pitt
-DE Zach Harrison, Ohio State
-DE Anudike-Uzomah, Kansas State
-DT Mazi Smith, Michigan

3rd Rd Targets
-DT Gervon Dexter, Florida
-NT Keanu Benton, Wisconsin
-DE Adetomiwa Adebawore, Northwestern
-DL Byron Young, Tennessee
-DT Zack Pickens, South Carolina
-DL Mike Morris, Michigan
-DE Dylan Horton, TCU

4th Rd Targets
-DT Byron Young, Alabama
-DE Viliami Fehoko, San Jose St
-DE Thomas Incoom, Central Michigan
-DL Yaya Diabi, Louisville
-DE Habakkuk Baldonado, Pitt

5th-7th Rd Targets
-DE Isaiah McGuire, Missouri
-DE Caleb Murphy, Ferris St
-DE Derek Parish, Houston
-DT Dante Stills, West Virginia
-NT Elijah Simmons, Tennessee

[Nightfyre]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Murphy - maybe.

Benton - still no.

If Kancey's height/length issues have him sliding in the 2nd though, that's a guy I might be willing to move up for. Because unlike your Mazi Smith sorts, he's a guy who might be a difference maker.

Could Kancey be a Dre'mont Jones sort of interior pass-rusher? Yeah, I think he can be. And maybe a little better especially with Jones being able to draw some attention and maybe help him keep guys hands off him a bit.

If I've traded up for Murphy, though, I'm not also trading up for Kancey. It's just too much capital to throw at the DL when I still think we need a substantial infusion of talent/depth at WR and OL.

This board pretty routinely undersells the value of a 3 down 1 tech, imo. Mazi will demand double teams, which will single up the edges and CJ.


DJLN, this comment is purely for the sake of continuing the conversation and is not intended as shade or anything like that:
Kancey would play three technique and get destroyed on down run blocks. So you only play him in obvious passing situations? Replacing whom, exactly? Who is your four man front with Kancey? Are you moving CJ to one tech, so you can free up kancey to rush? Plus, frankly, I have reservations about a 280 pound d lineman with 30 inch arms and their ability to beat virtually any nfl guard.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Nightfyre

This board pretty routinely undersells the value of a 3 down 1 tech, imo. Mazi will demand double teams, which will single up the edges and CJ.


DJLN, this comment is purely for the sake of continuing the conversation and is not intended as shade or anything like that:
Kancey would play three technique and get destroyed on down run blocks. So you only play him in obvious passing situations? Replacing whom, exactly? Who is your four man front with Kancey? Are you moving CJ to one tech, so you can free up kancey to rush? Plus, frankly, I have reservations about a 280 pound d lineman with 30 inch arms and their ability to beat virtually any nfl guard.

Every down is a passing down in the modern NFL.

If having him on the field encourages teams to run the ball more - hell, that's value in its own right.

But in clear running situations I'm just going to go ahead and have a body in there. Nnadi and a 4th/5th rounder? A FA pickup this summer like Wormley?

I just don't care as much about the position as many others do. We HAVE our monster in the middle. Would there be some value in another guy like Smith alongside him? Sure - but hell, I just don't think fat/heavy guys are that hard to find.

And no team will EVER double-team Mazi Smith to set up Chris Jones. Jones is going to demand the double teams - full stop. The only time you'll see Smith doubled is on run plays and if that's the case - fine. But nobody's going to do the math and choose to free single Jones in a passing situation in favor of Mazi Smith and his half sack/season production.

[Nightfyre]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Every down is a passing down in the modern NFL.

If having him on the field encourages teams to run the ball more - hell, that's value in its own right.

But in clear running situations I'm just going to go ahead and have a body in there. Nnadi and a 4th/5th rounder? A FA pickup this summer like Wormley?

I just don't care as much about the position as many others do. We HAVE our monster in the middle. Would there be some value in another guy like Smith alongside him? Sure - but hell, I just don't think fat/heavy guys are that hard to find.

And no team will EVER double-team Mazi Smith to set up Chris Jones. Jones is going to demand the double teams - full stop. The only time you'll see Smith doubled is on run plays and if that's the case - fine. But nobody's going to do the math and choose to free single Jones in a passing situation in favor of Mazi Smith and his half sack/season production.

When you put a freak like Mazi in the one gap, imo, they will blow up the guards right shoulder if the center doesn't help resulting in complete loss of that gap. And rapidly. The 1 tech is designed to demand the centers assignment.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Nightfyre

When you put a freak like Mazi in the one gap, imo, they will blow up the guards right shoulder if the center doesn't help resulting in complete loss of that gap. And rapidly. The 1 tech is designed to demand the centers assignment.

Were that the case he'd have been far more dominant in college.

I just can't reconcile the idea that Mazi is a freak when you watch him be fairly pedestrian in college.

I don't see why I should expect him to be a difference maker at the next level when he went in the Big 10.

[DJ's left nut]

Now that said - I think he has a super high floor and if the Chiefs traded up for him in 2 I wouldn't lose my mind. It's just not the direction I'd go.

[Nightfyre]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Now that said - I think he has a super high floor and if the Chiefs traded up for him in 2 I wouldn't lose my mind. It's just not the direction I'd go.

To be clear, I value what I think he could bring. Not enough to pick him straight up at 31, but am very comfortable with the idea of going and getting him at an appropriate point in day two.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Nightfyre

To be clear, I value what I think he could bring. Not enough to pick him straight up at 31, but am very comfortable with the idea of going and getting him at an appropriate point in day two.

But this is where you lose me a bit.

If this is a guy who's so dynamic and so disruptive that teams will have no choice but to take their chances with Chris Jones rather than have him blow apart their interior - that's a 1st round pick.

I don't see that ceiling so I seen a high floor player at a position of need and approach it not unlike the Bolton or Morse selections - safe picks with a little upside in the 2nd is fine.

[Nightfyre]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

But this is where you lose me a bit.

If this is a guy who's so dynamic and so disruptive that teams will have no choice but to take their chances with Chris Jones rather than have him blow apart their interior - that's a 1st round pick.

I don't see that ceiling so I seen a high floor player at a position of need and approach it not unlike the Bolton or Morse selections - safe picks with a little upside in the 2nd is fine.

At the end of the day, he's still a 1 tech, with pass rush upside that I like. Nnadi can play the spot serviceably on run downs, and we just have to live with a body there on pass downs as the roster stands or if we draft a Byron young type late in the draft.

Mazi is different in my view. He's incredibly strong, heavy, long, and can give you over 50 snaps a game there. So trading up in the second is as much premium as I would give for prospects of that nature not named Suh. And yeah, he changes the ability to rush four rather than always blitzing for pressure. Is that worth 31 though? Or should the Chiefs be looking to identify their long term EDGE there? I think getting both accomplished with these athletes makes a ton of sense for locking in a core defensive line group for the next 4 years.

If you can find a solid right tackle and a developmental guard late in the draft, the trenches could be locked in for phase 2 of mahomes career.

Oh and one secondary consideration: the fifth year option feels like a lot better value on a premium edge vs 1 tech.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Nightfyre

Oh and one secondary consideration: the fifth year option feels like a lot better value on a premium edge vs 1 tech.

On the flipside, you're a lot more likely to find an excellent 1-tech at 31 than you are a premium edge who's going to get a 2nd contract.

It happens, to be sure. But a DE version of Aaron Donald, who was just so very clearly an absolute monster in college, goes 1.1. It's not smart, no, but it's the reality of it. Clowney went 1.1 in that draft because he had similar physical traits to Donald (less productivity) but the length to play DE.

It's similar to the market efficiency that comes from having a truly elite pass-catching TE. They just don't get paid as much as WRs, right wrong or otherwise.

[JPH83]

I still think the best approach at DT might be to double dip. If you can get an undersized guy with a little juice to support Jones as a pass rusher like Kobie Turner in R4, or Karl Brooks if he slips to there, and then a guy like Brodric Martin or Jerrod Clark a little later as a run stuffer, I think that goes a fair way and might be more impactful than a guy like Mazi Smith alone. That way you can use the first 3 picks on "premium" positions like DE and needs like WR and OT. I keep coming back to DE, WR, OT, DT as the first 4 picks. Then anything from RB, TE, G, DT, DE and WR that makes sense.

[DJ's left nut]

Interestingly, I just ran a draft that I think went pretty sensibly through the first 5:

Harrison
Rice
Carter (Edge)
Pickens (DT)
Schoonmaker

Then it went completely off the damn rails but I also couldn't convince myself it would be a bad idea:

166: Colby Wooden (Doubling up at edge)
178: Moro Ojomo (Doubling up at DT)
217: Anthony Johnson
249: Keondre Coburn - Now TRIPLING up at DT but there's no way you could pass on him here.
250: Evan Hull


So I didn't get a CB and I'd have liked to have managed it. But even after TRIPLING up at DT and really hitting the DL hard through the middle rounds, I covered a TON of needs with high end talent that fits the squad really well.

I think you might be right - this might be a numbers game waiting to happen.

[Couch-Potato]

Stealers reportedly trying to trade up with CHI for the #9 pick "to take J Carter"

[RunKC]

Really like the Mizzou kid Isaiah McGuire. He’s projected as a 3rd rd pick. And honestly if he somehow fell to us in rd 3 I would take him even if we already drafted and edge

[Mecca]

Originally Posted by Couch-Potato

Stealers reportedly trying to trade up with CHI for the #9 pick "to take J Carter"

If that is true it's because Pittsburgh sees him as a top 5 player and his fall as their 1 shot at one.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by RunKC

Really like the Mizzou kid Isaiah McGuire. He’s projected as a 3rd rd pick. And honestly if he somehow fell to us in rd 3 I would take him even if we already drafted and edge

I think he's more of a 4th rounder but yeah - I mentioned him in the CP Mock thread - loud tools. There's a lot to like there.

What's nice about McGuire is that he was really really raw coming into Mizzou and just kept on developing. He got a little better every year.

But ultimately if KC took him in the 3rd, I wouldn't complain. I wouldn't love it if they'd already taken an edge player (2 DEs in the first 3 rounds is a hair too much draft capital for a team that needs to add talent at OL, DT and WR as well) but if they go with OT, WR or DT with their first couple picks, I wouldn't mind him as their first edge taken in the 3rd.

I think part of it is that Mizzou fans are damn hard on their own. It was why more people should've listened to the Mizzou folks when they were saying that KC was going to love Morse and Bolton. If WE'RE supporting a guy, he must be a pretty strong get.

I don't have the same level of affinity for McGuire that I did for Bolton or Morse, but I like him well enough.