Investing megathread extravaganza

[DaFace]

A place to talk about investing stuff.

[eDave]

I do like to mumble **** your name when I look at it. But that's just for fun and I'm like that. I discovered Kucoin Lending and that's going to fix the issue. And quite frankly, that capability is the best thing I've ever discovered.

I'll stop with the crypto talk.

eBank.

[MTG#10]

Okay I'm really going to bed this time, gotta be up at 3. I'll look forward to everyone's smart-ass replies in the morning!

[MTG#10]

Originally Posted by TwistedChief

Renaissance has a number of trend-following strategies that were likely triggered. It's what they do. There is no part of their business that is lauded as a quality assessor of fundamental value.

Vanguard, Blackrock, etc run a number of funds that track the market and have stakes in everything.

Since you enjoy internet links as DD, this was a nice one:

https://www.fool.com/investing/2021/...d-dump-scheme/



MTG 10 likes red paint, everyone! He can also paint by number!

You really just posted a Motley Fool article to back your opinion?



Okay, I can't take anything you say in regards to the stock market seriously again. Deuces.

[TwistedChief]

Originally Posted by MTG#10

That's exactly what I was expecting...a question answered with a question. You should be a politician.

Do some research into the dark pool trading of AMC and the ongoing SEC investigation into it. Shits going to hit the fan sooner or later.

Nope. This isn't dodging anything. I'm engaging you on a reddit thread that you posted that you felt was particularly meaningful. Let's go through it together and I want you to explain to me what I think of as nonsense and obvious misdirection/red herring you place high value on.

It seems to me that you might be moving the goalposts if you're not willing to engage in a serious discussion despite making many bold claims.

[eDave]

Twisted, I think you are being a little hard on the Beaver.

[TwistedChief]

Originally Posted by MTG#10

You really just posted a Motley Fool article to back your opinion?



Okay, I can't take anything you say in regards to the stock market seriously again. Deuces.

The difference is I've traded with both Vanguard and Blackrock thousands of times in my life when they were clients of mine. I know how they operate and who they are and their sophistication level. I'm able to gauge what they're doing based on the type of accounts they are and could've answered that without the article link. But I figured without an internet link, you wouldn't believe it as it wouldn't represent the high quality 'DD' you are accustomed to.

Next time I'll search for some random guy on reddit and link to that. Noted.

[MTG#10]

Look dude, you're the one who popped in to shit on the Reddit link I posted. Debunk what the guy found and explain what all of that information he stumbled onto really means or stfu.

And there are a hell of a lot more players on that list than Vanguard and Blackrock but you missed the point anyway...its not the total amount of shares all of those firms own, it's the significant increase of their buys AFTER the price shot up. The Motley Fool (appropriately named) article you linked wasn't even in the ballpark of how many shares those two own, Vanguard is now in over 43 mil and Blackrock almost 27 mil..that's a hell of a lot more than Fool's claims of 5k and 4k. But nice try champ.

[KCUnited]

[lewdog]

Back in on AAPL at 150.

[TwistedChief]

Originally Posted by MTG#10

Look dude, you're the one who popped in to shit on the Reddit link I posted. Debunk what the guy found and explain what all of that information he stumbled onto really means or stfu.

And there are a hell of a lot more players on that list than Vanguard and Blackrock but you missed the point anyway...its not the total amount of shares all of those firms own, it's the significant increase of their buys AFTER the price shot up. The Motley Fool (appropriately named) article you linked wasn't even in the ballpark of how many shares those two own, Vanguard is now in over 43 mil and Blackrock almost 27 mil..that's a hell of a lot more than Fool's claims of 5k and 4k. But nice try champ.

Okay.

First, 'champ,' your reading comprehension is embarrassing for an allegedly critically-thinking adult. The Fool's claim of 5k and 4k were the numbers of stocks these two institutions owned. It said nothing of their positions in any of the stocks you traffic in. But, good on you for spending time to read through a short blurb of information I provided you and not being able to grasp its simple meaning. It doesn't bode well for your ability to decipher the more complex topics we're going to move onto.

Blackrock and Vanguard have a number of funds and managed accounts that track indices. Do you know what happens when the price of these shares goes up relative to other stocks in the index? Hint: they become a larger part of the index. Then, funds like Blackrock and Vanguard buy more of the shares to reduce tracking error versus the index.

So, there's no mystery or surprise why those funds would be buying. It says nothing of their value or lack thererof.

As for the reddit thread, it's difficult for me to get past the first part:

Do this infuriate you? It Should....

Why would placing a bid ~$160 below the market infuriate you? Why would that influence the price of a security?

If you told me that someone was placing a very large order to sell one of your meme stocks right around the close at a price just slightly higher than the market in order to scare people into selling, I can see why you might feel that has meaning. But an order far away from the market has no bearing on the price of the security. If you feel different, explain why.

Second, MEMX. It was created by a consortium of banks who were tired of being overcharged by the larger exchanges (NYSE, etc). I realize you think that banks are cabal and everything they do is evil, but sometimes they do things just to save money. They created this exchange with that idea in mind over the longer run.

This guy looks at the exchange codes and singles out 'z' to be 'most disturbing.' Why? Because it REMOVES LIQUIDITY. Sounds scary, right? Wrong. Any market order 'removes liquidity' because it's immediately executed. Non-market orders add liquidity. If you spent time looking at the fee schedule, it's what you'd think. They charge fees when you remove liquidity (i.e., price taking) and rebate you when you add liquidity by showing prices. They are attempting to encourage market participants to show bids and offers and even paying to do so to develop critical mass. This is how competitive markets with start-ups work in all forms of life.

This 'z' code specifically though mentions that it both removes liquidity and is routed to another market. Does that sound scary? I'm not 100% sure how this exchange is set up, but you'll notice that this 'z' order where you essentially buy/sell at market and it's routed to another exchange incurs a cost that is 6x more expensive (which is *a lot*) than one where you buy/sell at market on MEMX. My guess is that's meant to encourage the members to trade on MEMX and not to use it to route the order to other exchanges, and thus the very punitive rate.

So, knowing all that, are you infuriated? Or is it more likely this guy posted a bunch of stuff without connecting dots or really understanding what he was doing and you just took him at his word that you should be infuriated rather than doing your own DD and realizing what he meant?

I don't care if you champion meme stocks. I don't care if you make or lose money in meme stocks. People make money in bad trades all the time just as people lose money in great trades - it's the nature of the market.

I only care that you continue to post the same stuff over and over again about hedge fund manipulation as if you have any clue what you're talking about.

[MTG#10]

^^^Thanks for actually typing out a real response instead of just "it's wrong". I'll read through it when I get some time.

[DaFace]

Originally Posted by KCUnited

I'd wager Crypto Bros have a better understanding of investing than Memestock Bros.

[DaFace]

Originally Posted by MTG#10

Ahh **** it, my shit can wait. No, you are 100% absolutely wrong but I'd love to hear your take on it.
...

Big banks buy and sell huge volumes all the time. Did it have some impact? Sure. But enough to cause the stock to go up 14x? Nah. That takes an army of people who suddenly feel the stock is going to go through the roof.

[MTG#10]

Originally Posted by DaFace

Big banks buy and sell huge volumes all the time. Did it have some impact? Sure. But enough to cause the stock to go up 14x? Nah. That takes an army of people who suddenly feel the stock is going to go through the roof.

Retail investors helped but had little to do with either big squeezes this year, they were primarily driven by whales.

[MTG#10]

Originally Posted by TwistedChief

Okay.

First, 'champ,' your reading comprehension is embarrassing for an allegedly critically-thinking adult. The Fool's claim of 5k and 4k were the numbers of stocks these two institutions owned. It said nothing of their positions in any of the stocks you traffic in. But, good on you for spending time to read through a short blurb of information I provided you and not being able to grasp its simple meaning. It doesn't bode well for your ability to decipher the more complex topics we're going to move onto.

Blackrock and Vanguard have a number of funds and managed accounts that track indices. Do you know what happens when the price of these shares goes up relative to other stocks in the index? Hint: they become a larger part of the index. Then, funds like Blackrock and Vanguard buy more of the shares to reduce tracking error versus the index.

So, there's no mystery or surprise why those funds would be buying. It says nothing of their value or lack thererof.

As for the reddit thread, it's difficult for me to get past the first part:



Why would placing a bid ~$160 below the market infuriate you? Why would that influence the price of a security?

If you told me that someone was placing a very large order to sell one of your meme stocks right around the close at a price just slightly higher than the market in order to scare people into selling, I can see why you might feel that has meaning. But an order far away from the market has no bearing on the price of the security. If you feel different, explain why.

Second, MEMX. It was created by a consortium of banks who were tired of being overcharged by the larger exchanges (NYSE, etc). I realize you think that banks are cabal and everything they do is evil, but sometimes they do things just to save money. They created this exchange with that idea in mind over the longer run.

This guy looks at the exchange codes and singles out 'z' to be 'most disturbing.' Why? Because it REMOVES LIQUIDITY. Sounds scary, right? Wrong. Any market order 'removes liquidity' because it's immediately executed. Non-market orders add liquidity. If you spent time looking at the fee schedule, it's what you'd think. They charge fees when you remove liquidity (i.e., price taking) and rebate you when you add liquidity by showing prices. They are attempting to encourage market participants to show bids and offers and even paying to do so to develop critical mass. This is how competitive markets with start-ups work in all forms of life.

This 'z' code specifically though mentions that it both removes liquidity and is routed to another market. Does that sound scary? I'm not 100% sure how this exchange is set up, but you'll notice that this 'z' order where you essentially buy/sell at market and it's routed to another exchange incurs a cost that is 6x more expensive (which is *a lot*) than one where you buy/sell at market on MEMX. My guess is that's meant to encourage the members to trade on MEMX and not to use it to route the order to other exchanges, and thus the very punitive rate.

So, knowing all that, are you infuriated? Or is it more likely this guy posted a bunch of stuff without connecting dots or really understanding what he was doing and you just took him at his word that you should be infuriated rather than doing your own DD and realizing what he meant?

I don't care if you champion meme stocks. I don't care if you make or lose money in meme stocks. People make money in bad trades all the time just as people lose money in great trades - it's the nature of the market.

I only care that you continue to post the same stuff over and over again about hedge fund manipulation as if you have any clue what you're talking about.

First off you are right, I quickly skimmed through the article you posted while at work and took "positions" as "shares", egg on my face and apologies for calling you champ.

Blackrock and Vanguard are only two of the high-stake owners from my list, yes they are the top two but there are 8 more who have also taken a very large position after the price jump so my point remains.

But back to Vanguard, I get what you're saying about tracking indices, but they bought over 6.7 MILLION shares after the price jump and now own 8.5% of the entire float (not counting counterfeit shares obviously but we'll get to that later). Do they own that high of a stake in all companies? If not why AMC? Are you telling me there's nobody who works at Vanguard that would see what happened and step in to stop this purchase(s) if it were just an overpriced stock destined to fail? I find that very hard to believe, but you obviously know more about them than I do so I wont argue about it.

For the Reddit post, even he is admitting he's not entirely sure what is going on with the buy high/sell low orders at specific time slots but it's a good theory. I'm not going to argue with you on the part of his post about the z code because admittedly it makes my brain hurt, but it sounds like you're guessing as is he. Would you like to address the rest of his post though? There's a lot more after that.

Also I'll do something rare for an internet debate, I'll will admit you know more about this shit than I do and I'm still learning. Having said that since you seem to be legit and know your shit what's your take on the entire situation? Have you read or seen the reports of the SEC investigation into the heavy manipulation of AMC by firms like Citadel re-routing retail investor purchases AH through dark pools so they wont hit the NYSE and affect the price? Have you seen/read reports of the insane amount of synthetic shares being traded every single day? These reports have been covered on CNBC and all over legit investing sites, not just on Reddit and Youtube channels. Do you think this whole thing is all bullshit and 4 million apes are wrong? Obviously time will tell on that, just asking what your opinion. As in-tune with the market as you seem to be I would think you'd be fascinated by what's going on and would have a theory of your own.