Are We Headed For Vermeil 2.0?

[petegz28]

The way Mahomes can sling the ball shows promise for some high scoring offense. That being said, is the defense going to be able to cut it this season?

One thing that bailed out the defense to a degree the last few seasons was that Smith rarely turned the ball over. Even in a 3 & out situation, MVP usually kicked the ball deep enough to control field position.

Mahomes is neither Green nor Smith. I think he will put up the points Green did but obviously is going to have more turnovers than Smith did. Which is okay. But the defense can't be what it has been.

The defense and Bob Sutton are going to have to learn how to help out when those turnovers happen as they are probably going to happen more than they are used too given the nature of Mahomes. We know there are going to be some great passing plays. We also know that gunslingers will usually throw a few more INT's as well trying to make plays happen. Again, that is okay.

The Sutton defense of "bend but don't break" may have to take a page out of the Denver defense and start really getting after the QB and actually shutting down offenses before they get into FG range, etc.

If our defense is anything like has been during the Sutton era, we could be heading toward Vermeil 2.0 where you're going to have to hope 49 points is enough to win.

[Lzen]

Originally Posted by Shoes

This Sutton narrative on CP is so rich... let's take a look at "Sutton's reign":

2013: 19.1 points against/game good for 6th in the league
2014: 17.6 points against/game good for 2nd in the league
2015: 17.9 points against/game good for 3rd in the league
2016: 19.4 points against/game good for 7th in the league
2017: 21.2 points against/game good for 15th in the league

By your own words you just stated that the Chiefs last season were gimped by their roster, yet somehow the Chiefs still managed to have an average defense. Last year was the first year a Sutton defense allowed an average of more than 20 points a game. Last season I think was the first time you could say since Andy Reid took over that the offense was the strength of this team and not the defense.

While points allowed is a key stat, it is not everything. Time of possession and yardage are still important factors. I'd be curious to see those rankings for all of the seasons Sutton has been here. 2016 was a good defense as far as getting turnovers, but what happens in a game when your defense isn't getting turnovers? Sure, they held the Steelers to 18 points, but the Steelers held the ball for quite a bit of time during that game and didn't allow our offense to get into much of a rhythm. And don't get me wrong, I still mostly blame Alex Smith for that shit show.

[Lzen]

And while Sutton may not be anything great, he is not bad. And nowhere near as bad as Greg what's his name. Not to mention the talent is much greater on this team than Vermeil's defenses. You'd have to be a moron to believe this defense will be as bad as that 2002 Chiefs team. Personally, I think this defense is going to surprise people and be better than expected, ranking 15-20 in yardage.

[Lzen]

Originally Posted by BossChief

Would start on most good defenses

Berry
Hitchens
Jones
Houston
Fuller

Solid defenders

Ragland
Sorensen
Ford
Bailey

Looking to prove they can reach potential

Kpassagnon
Speaks
Nnadi
Amerson
Williams
Watts

Our second team defense is better than the 2003 starting defense.

I can’t believe this comparison is even being made.

Warfield
Bartee
Mccleon
Browning
Sims
Bell
Hicks
Holliday
Maslowski
Woods
Wesley
Fujita

Fujita and Woods were the only guys on that defense that were even solid.

I seem to remember Wesley being decent. Fujita was okay but I don't remember him doing a whole helluva lot while with the Chiefs. I think he went on to have mild success elsewhere (Saints/Cowboys?). Sims was a huge bust. And that had to be the worst trio of CBs of all time.

[Chris Meck]

Sutton was a part of the Rex Ryan defensive philosophy, no? That ain't bend-but-don't-break.
I would think that we had some talent deficiencies here that prevented anything else AS WELL AS a low scoring offense for several of the seasons. So you can't take chances really, because the offense can't respond. So, you end up playing conservatively on both sides.

Not saying that's the whole story, but played a part. Last year, injuries and age just tanked the talent level and we got exposed.

I'm not sure how much more you can revamp the starting 11 in one offseason than we have. I bet it's a lot better.

[RealSNR]

Originally Posted by Lzen

While points allowed is a key stat, it is not everything. Time of possession and yardage are still important factors. I'd be curious to see those rankings for all of the seasons Sutton has been here. 2016 was a good defense as far as getting turnovers, but what happens in a game when your defense isn't getting turnovers? Sure, they held the Steelers to 18 points, but the Steelers held the ball for quite a bit of time during that game and didn't allow our offense to get into much of a rhythm. And don't get me wrong, I still mostly blame Alex Smith for that shit show.

Time of possession had largely been in the Chiefs' favor probably up until this season.

As for yardage, this defense has never really done a good job limiting yards. I think Reid and Sutton viewed it as a tradeoff between yardage and points allowed the past couple of years given some of the JAGs we've had to start throughout the unit, particularly in the secondary.

I think you can criticize it as being overly cautious, particularly when we got into the playoffs, but it's very possible that Sutton was actually maximizing the defense's contributions to winning games given some of the holes in the roster they had to endure.

I thought Sutton should have been fired, but I'm not irate that he was kept aboard, and for the moment I'm going to be pretty patient to see how they change things up and improve.

If RBs and WRs are still racking up career days against us, and if Sutton is continuing to hold players like Houston back from being aggressive, then I'll re-join the angry townspeople with torches and pitchforks.

[Coochie liquor]

Originally Posted by petegz28

Really good? Blew huge lead in the playoff? Twice! 2 of the 4 worst blown leads in the playoffs in the history of football are owned by this guy in a short stint of 4 years.

I'd say we had really 1 decent year of defense from Sutton. And even in that we blew a huge lead in the playoffs.

Sutton's defenses over the last few years have taken on a pattern of playing soft. I am just a bit concerned that in all the defensive issues, the coach of the defense is not being looked at as part of the problem.

We cannot continue playing a 3 man rush, playing CB's 10 yards off on 3rd and medium, consistently giving up 3rd and long and then claiming victory because after a 7 minute drive we held the other team to a FG.

That hasn't really worked well.

A big difference is we’re going to have a qb who keeps his eyes down field, and isn’t afraid to pull the trigger on a big play instead of running into a sack. Mahomes is surely gonna crush our hopes and dreams sometimes with a interception, and likely at a bad time in the playoffs. But he’s capable of the other side of that coin too. He will likely win us some games with his arm, and playmaking abilities. I’m both playoff games you mentioned, we sputtered badly in the second half on offense. In either of those games a single score would have won it for us. But our old qb couldn’t handle that pressure with the game on the line. When we got into those situations be it regular season or post season, I never had faith that Alex would lead us back once the lead was gone. You could just see it in his mannerisms. Impossible to say if Mahomes can overcome what Alex couldn’t, but at this point we only have hope that he can.

[farmerchief]

Originally Posted by RealSNR

Time of possession had largely been in the Chiefs' favor probably up until this season.

As for yardage, this defense has never really done a good job limiting yards. I think Reid and Sutton viewed it as a tradeoff between yardage and points allowed the past couple of years given some of the JAGs we've had to start throughout the unit, particularly in the secondary.

I think you can criticize it as being overly cautious, particularly when we got into the playoffs, but it's very possible that Sutton was actually maximizing the defense's contributions to winning games given some of the holes in the roster they had to endure.

I thought Sutton should have been fired, but I'm not irate that he was kept aboard, and for the moment I'm going to be pretty patient to see how they change things up and improve.

If RBs and WRs are still racking up career days against us, and if Sutton is continuing to hold players like Houston back from being aggressive, then I'll re-join the angry townspeople with torches and pitchforks.

Ditto👍

[Skyy God]

#PeteThings

[petegz28]

Defense still looks soft and doing the same shit. No push, playing way off of WR's. I know it's just pre-season game #1 but some things just need to be evident all the time. Things like push at the line are something we need to see all the time from our 1's & 2's

[Chiefshrink]

Vermeil 2.0 ? Didn't we have a HOF o-line ? How does our current o-line compare to Vermeil 1.0

[petegz28]

Originally Posted by Chiefshrink

Vermeil 2.0 ? Didn't we have a HOF o-line ? How does our current o-line compare to Vermeil 1.0

I think you're taking that a bit too literally. The point is we are going to be all offense, no defense.

[Chiefshrink]

Originally Posted by petegz28

we are going to be all offense,

Too literally ? Roaf,Shields and Waters ? All offense ? Nothing personal here but you did see our o-line tonight, correct? How do they compare with Vermeil 1.0 ? Mahomes will be lucky to make it through the season. Texans didn't even have Watt.

[GloryDayz]

We're soooooo ****ing there. Sutton is a ****ing moron. That's why Andy loves him.

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[kcpasco]

No because the offense will just be slightly less terrible than the defense.

[GloryDayz]

Originally Posted by O.city

Why?

When he had the players to fit his system his first 3 or so years here, the defense was really good.

So?

Sutton's, "bend before you break", and, "stay bent" systems both suck. He's just stuck with players who bend in a lite breeze.

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