Chiefs Maybe Dee Ford isn't a bust? - Page 7

RunKC · 10-16-2016, 05:05 PM

7.5 sacks, 2 forced fumbles and 2 forced holding calls in 12 starts since Houston got hurt. Not bad #'s from a complimentary rusher, though he does need to be more consistent throughout the game.

I'd still take Carr even after today, but I think the bust label might be too strong for the kid at this point.

milkman · 10-19-2016, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RunKC

I think you need to watch Sunday's game again

Why would I need to rewatch Sunday's game?

I am not talking about a single game.
I am talking about his overall performance in 5 games.

He has one good game against Austin Howard.

He has 4 marginal games against starters.

DJ's left nut · 10-19-2016, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkman

Let's be honest here.

Ford has only made any real impact against 3rd string tackles as a pass rusher.

He's improved against the run, and has had a couple of passes defensed, but he has not developed as a pass rusher and is not generating any kind of consistent pressure, and as you stated, is not finishing when he does.

That simply is not good enough.

He could've been Justin Houston and we'd have lost both of the games we lost still.

My points is that he's taking far more heat than he deserves. People are still trying to argue that Zombo is a better player and acting like the guys on the other side of the ball aren't getting paid to play this game as well. He's not a great player and isn't likely to ever be a great player, but he's been servicable and hasn't been the reason we've lost any of the games we've lost.

You see more shit thrown at him on Twitter during the game than virtually anybody else on the roster, as though getting blocked out is a mortal sin. It's just ridiculous. Hell, it's not like he was even a top 10 pick; most guys taken where he was taken AREN'T Marcus Peters. If you get a servicable player, you're doing fine.

If he had a full season worth of playing time, he'd be a 10 sack guy, IMO. That's pretty damn decent.

RunKC · 10-19-2016, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkman

Why would I need to rewatch Sunday's game?

I am not talking about a single game.
I am talking about his overall performance in 5 games.

He has one good game against Austin Howard.

He has 4 marginal games against starters.

You need to rewatch Sunday's game bc what you posted isn't right. Ford's first sack was against LT Donald Penn who is PFF's 9th rated OT.
His first sack against SD was against Joe Barksdale, one of PFF's higher ranked OT's last season.

milkman · 10-19-2016, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RunKC

You need to rewatch Sunday's game bc what you posted isn't right. Ford's first sack was against LT Donald Penn who is PFF's 9th rated OT.
His first sack against SD was against Joe Barksdale, one of PFF's higher ranked OT's last season.

I saw that.
He got that quick burst and got around the corner before Penn could get his hands on him and get set.

He will get a few of those, but he hasn't shown any consistency, and his best games have been playing primarily against SD and Oakland backups.

One play against a quality tackle is an aberration.

pugsnotdrugs19 · 10-19-2016, 09:00 AM

Howard was even Oakland's starting RT last season, and played well mostly. The quality of opponent argument does not work in this case.

milkman · 10-19-2016, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pugsnotdrugs19

Howard was even Oakland's starting RT last season, and played well mostly. The quality of opponent argument does not work in this case.

He played so well that he isn't a starter anymore.

pugsnotdrugs19 · 10-19-2016, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkman

He played so well that he isn't a starter anymore.

According to PFF, he was good. Well above average.

PFF has its flaws, though.

RunKC · 10-19-2016, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

He could've been Justin Houston and we'd have lost both of the games we lost still.

My points is that he's taking far more heat than he deserves. People are still trying to argue that Zombo is a better player and acting like the guys on the other side of the ball aren't getting paid to play this game as well. He's not a great player and isn't likely to ever be a great player, but he's been servicable and hasn't been the reason we've lost any of the games we've lost.

You see more shit thrown at him on Twitter during the game than virtually anybody else on the roster, as though getting blocked out is a mortal sin. It's just ridiculous. Hell, it's not like he was even a top 10 pick; most guys taken where he was taken AREN'T Marcus Peters. If you get a servicable player, you're doing fine.

If he had a full season worth of playing time, he'd be a 10 sack guy, IMO. That's pretty damn decent.

DJ with another good post.

People need to be objective about this guy. Saying he only gets sacks on backups is lazy. Half of his sacks are against starters that are actually really good. And who the **** cares if he gets some sacks on backups? Like any pass rusher hasn't done that before? Remember Khalil Mack getting 5 sacks (Half of his total sack count) in Denver on a shitty RT named Schofield? Remember Houston beating up on bad OT's that were on bad teams? Every rusher gets those sacks.

People seem to forget that OL play is bad league wide.

The facts are that Ford has 3.5 sacks as a rotational player.

54
62
28 (hurt hand)
41
43

228 total snaps and 3.5 sacks and a fumble. That's not full time work. Houston was getting over 70 snaps a game, so Ford doing this with fewer opportunities is surprising.

DJ's left nut · 10-19-2016, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkman

I saw that.
He got that quick burst and got around the corner before Penn could get his hands on him and get set.

He will get a few of those, but he hasn't shown any consistency, and his best games have been playing primarily against SD and Oakland backups.

One play against a quality tackle is an aberration.

This is the same argument I used to have with Knowmo when he was yapping about Dumerville vs. Allen (I think it was Allen anyway).

Almost no pass rushers show the consistency you think they do. Most of the big time sack artists get the bulk of their sacks in a handful of their games and are usually stonewalled by the best OLs. The truly HoF caliber guys can get theirs pretty consistently but the merely good get theirs in spurts and aren't out there wrecking Pro Bowl LTs with any regularity.

Just like the "your second round picks should be immediate starters" argument so many like to make, we have a ridiculously high bar for our own players and rarely look to their contemporaries on other teams. If Ford goes out there and gets 10 sacks, 70% of which come against average or worse tackles, then he's really just doing what relatively decent pass rushers do. He's not beating up the elite and he's not getting stoned by the shitty. He's in that squishy middle where he's good enough to play but not so good that you just write his name in ink and move along.

That's a hell of a lot better than most are willing to give him credit for.

milkman · 10-19-2016, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

He could've been Justin Houston and we'd have lost both of the games we lost still.

My points is that he's taking far more heat than he deserves. People are still trying to argue that Zombo is a better player and acting like the guys on the other side of the ball aren't getting paid to play this game as well. He's not a great player and isn't likely to ever be a great player, but he's been servicable and hasn't been the reason we've lost any of the games we've lost.

You see more shit thrown at him on Twitter during the game than virtually anybody else on the roster, as though getting blocked out is a mortal sin. It's just ridiculous. Hell, it's not like he was even a top 10 pick; most guys taken where he was taken AREN'T Marcus Peters. If you get a servicable player, you're doing fine.

If he had a full season worth of playing time, he'd be a 10 sack guy, IMO. That's pretty damn decent.

I get your point.

My point is that he is still the same guy he was two years ago.
He hasn't developed any pass rush skills beyond his initial burst and speed, and if he ever will be anything more than he is now, he has to have more than that single attribute.

DJ's left nut · 10-19-2016, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkman

I get your point.

My point is that he is still the same guy he was two years ago.
He hasn't developed any pass rush skills beyond his initial burst and speed, and if he ever will be anything more than he is now, he has to have more than that single attribute.

Yeah, but if he can just do a credible job against the run (and he has), he could be little more than he is now as a pass rusher and be a pretty valuable player on the weak side.

My long-term goals for Ford never had much to do with how well he plays the strong side next to Hali but rather how well he can play the weak side next to Houston. I think he's shown enough doing the harder job this year to establish that he can complement Houston pretty nicely.

milkman · 10-19-2016, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Yeah, but if he can just do a credible job against the run (and he has), he could be little more than he is now as a pass rusher and be a pretty valuable player on the weak side.

My long-term goals for Ford never had much to do with how well he plays the strong side next to Hali but rather how well he can play the weak side next to Houston. I think he's shown enough doing the harder job this year to establish that he can complement Houston pretty nicely.

This definitely has merit.

**Anyong Bluth** · 10-19-2016, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Dole

Nope. He didn't lead the NFL in sacks his first year, so he's a CP bust. He isn't on pace for the all-time sack record this year, so he should probably be cut in the off season to make roster space for a real pass rusher.

This place has gotten beyond ridiculous.

If you're not talking in the 3rd person, shit has hit the fan.

**Anyong Bluth** · 10-19-2016, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Or if people would pay attention when he plays well but doesn't actually finish the play.

He's not lollygagging in Q1-3, he's just not always finishing the play off and people are ignoring him when he just does his job. I read the post-game reactions here and am oftentimes left to wonder if we're just watching a different game. People will absolutely wreck Ford and when I watched I saw a guy that played fine. Not amazing, but solid, yeoman's work from a guy that's a solid but unspectacular player.

Ford's been fine this year, even when people were excoriating him. He's not amazing and not a guy I'd be looking to build around. I wouldn't even guarantee him a roster spot past his rookie deal. But the blame he's taken 'round here has been absurd.

Because half the buttholes here read something and take it as gospel.

I said a while ago, trashing Ford became en vogue around here. They're not actually paying attention to his play. If he doesn't get a sack or force a fumble he's the suck!

O.city · 10-19-2016, 10:02 AM

We've had this debate before, but I still don't think Ford needs to develop a multitude of pass rush moves to be successful. He's always gonna be a speed guy, that's what he's gonna live off off.

He just needs to show a few others. Rip and under, power, spin etc just to keep guys off balance.

He's done that this year.

10-16-2016, 05:05 PM
RunKC Andy Reid Supporter Join Date: Apr 2012 Casino cash: $-1380389	Maybe Dee Ford isn't a bust? 7.5 sacks, 2 forced fumbles and 2 forced holding calls in 12 starts since Houston got hurt. Not bad #'s from a complimentary rusher, though he does need to be more consistent throughout the game. I'd still take Carr even after today, but I think the bust label might be too strong for the kid at this point.
Posts: 52,025

10-19-2016, 09:00 AM	#95
pugsnotdrugs19 SUPER BOWL CHAMPIONS Join Date: Aug 2013 Casino cash: $6649447	Howard was even Oakland's starting RT last season, and played well mostly. The quality of opponent argument does not work in this case.
Posts: 29,036

10-19-2016, 10:02 AM	#105
O.city In Search of a Life Join Date: Jul 2009 Casino cash: $-505936	We've had this debate before, but I still don't think Ford needs to develop a multitude of pass rush moves to be successful. He's always gonna be a speed guy, that's what he's gonna live off off. He just needs to show a few others. Rip and under, power, spin etc just to keep guys off balance. He's done that this year.
Posts: 84,128