Broncos news megathread

[ROYC75]

Discussion: All things Broncos.

[Garcia Bronco]

Originally Posted by Detoxing

Yeah that's not true.

It's absolutely true. I remember Priest Holmes getting more than 300 all-purpose yards in a single game. A great achievement. The Chiefs lost that game. I'd bet you don't even remember it on your own. Why? Because it didn't matter because the Chiefs lost.

November 24, 2002

Seahawks 39, Chiefs 32

23 rush attempts, 197 rushing yards, 2 rushing touchdowns; 7 receptions, 110 receiving yards, 1 receiving touchdown, BFD

[RealSNR]

Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco

Look Chiefs, it okay to acknowledge that Elway is one of the greatest of all times, and I can tell by the comment that many of you were either too young to remember or didn't get to see those games. Mahomes is damn near an Elway clone with his style of play, congrats to him. He'll also go down as one of the greatest of all time. Enjoy it, but don't try and diminish Elway when its clear how great he was. Just stop.

I shit on Horseface every day 3 times before I even have breakfast. I do what I want.

[RealSNR]

Manning > Elway

No, not Peyton. I'm talking about Eli.

[RaidersOftheCellar]

Originally Posted by RunKC

Elway didn't really face any great QB's on great teams. The 80's through about 1995 were all about the NFC. Giants, Redskins, 49ers. Then the Cowboys and Packers in early to mid 90's.

Elway beat the Browns dude. He beat the Marty Chiefs with Grbac. He played in an easy conference.

It's like the NFC today. All the great teams are in the AFC while the NFC is laughably bad. And that showed when Elway got his ass kicker every SB in the 80's

I don't think it's like today's NFC at all. The NFC's won 3 of the last 6 SBs, and it would probably be 5 of the last 6 if not for late heroics by Mahomes.

Back then, the AFC representative was lucky to keep the game within 30 points, much less win.

[TEX]

Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco

LOL...Elway is always in the top ten by most measures and opinions and typically top 5 in most publications of note. And Denver always has two QBs in the top ten. Chiefs have 1 too if you want to count Joe Montana, but Lin kinda puts the lid on that. Even Patrick Mahomes has Elway in his top 5.

You're dead wrong. Most publications do not put him in top 5. A simple search will show u that. Top 10 - Yes. Top 5 - no. Is he still great? Yes. Top 10 is great. He's just not as great as u think he is.

[kcgreene]

Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco

But it's not the same coach. Same person. But not the same coach. Dan Reeves was not a static human-being and the league changed from 1989 to 1998 and Dan changed as well. He said as much in interviews.

Shanahan and Elway were like salt and pepper, they always get passed together. The difference is John was on the field and touched the ball. Just stop with the nonsensical arguments thinking you are a competent researcher. Your premise is badly configured, ergo, your results are badly interpreted.

The way the league played did change, but not as much as you're making it out to be in the few years between Reeves time in Denver and Atlanta. Did coaching schemes shift that dramatically from 92 to 97? Or from 81 to 83? Not enough to make this dramatic change that you're attempting to display.

By the way, this still doesn't resolve Craig Morton being better with Reeves in 81, or is that 2 years too far apart too? Was Reeves a completely different person then too?

This is such a stupid argument to make. No shit. Everyone grows and changes. That's called being a human being. Systems and coaches change, BUT they don't completely overhaul overnight. Core principles tend to remain in coaches schemes and systems. Its the closest thing that you can get to a control in this scenario. I'm not implying that it's entirely the same, I am saying though that if Dan Reeves can get better numbers out of quarterbacks who shouldn't be able to hold Elway's jock strap, what does that say about Elway?

The arguments I'm making are anything but nonsensical. At least it's not the drivel of "You have to had watch him" (Most of us here did) or the sheer stupidity of viewing Wins almost exclusively as a QB stat. I literally have seen nothing else from Broncos fans on this matter. 5 Super Bowls (in a historically bad conference), 2 SB Wins (Under a coach/RB tandem that was phenomenal), Lots of regular season wins. 4th quarter comebacks. That's literally all that has been brought to the table from you all here. Hell, if you use just those, he's closer to Eli Manning and Rapistberger than Joe Cool.

There are so many fallacies in the statements you're making on here its actually kind of laughable. I find it funny the guy who has provided no data is attempting to tell me I'm not a competent researcher. You're right, I'm only providing some degree of a control group in football statistics in regards to a coaches scheme impact upon a player. It's not perfect by any means, but it is an acceptable criteria in terms of comparison. When looking at things like this you can never create a perfect comparison, as there will always be questions of scheme impacting players, but its a valid concern and criticism. Acting as if it has no bearing in the discussion is intellectually bankrupt and burying your head in the sand.

Data drives all. Numbers don't lie. People do. Eyewitness accounts do. Delusional Donkey fans do. Delusional Chiefs fans do. But numbers don't.

I still think Elway was damn good with Shanahan, especially with Terrell Davis getting the rock, But he's still massively overrated.

You can't be statistically worse in several important metrics that define QB success than a sizable amount of his same-era counterparts and somehow just be better. The world doesn't work that way.

[jerryaldini]

Originally Posted by RunKC

Peyton is a lot closer to Marino than people think. He was basically Mr L. Regular Season and then folded when it mattered.

Manning got pretty lucky. He won against Rex Grossman, arguably one of the worst QB's to ever play in a SB, then was carried by an amazing defense.

For someone to talented and smart, he really didn't look like it in the biggest moments.

That included all 4 years in college when he always choked against Spurrier and would shit on his teammates

[Mile High Mania]

Originally Posted by TEX

You're dead wrong. Most publications do not put him in top 5. A simple search will show u that. Top 10 - Yes. Top 5 - no. Is he still great? Yes. Top 10 is great. He's just not as great as u think he is.

Yeah, yesterday due to sheer boredom, I must have looked at a dozen "all time rankings". And I agree, if I looked at 12 .. 2, maybe 3 had him in the 5 slot, but most were in the 6-8 range. I found one 10.

They're all just opinions, some based on a decent foundation of stats and the eyeball test. It's splitting hairs really, when you're talking all-time and you realize the NFL has been around for over 100 years and we've had 56 Super Bowl years... being discussed in the top 10, hell top 15 at your position is pretty freaking stellar.

[Garcia Bronco]

Originally Posted by Mile High Mania

Yeah, yesterday due to sheer boredom, I must have looked at a dozen "all time rankings". And I agree, if I looked at 12 .. 2, maybe 3 had him in the 5 slot, but most were in the 6-8 range. I found one 10.

They're all just opinions, some based on a decent foundation of stats and the eyeball test. It's splitting hairs really, when you're talking all-time and you realize the NFL has been around for over 100 years and we've had 56 Super Bowl years... being discussed in the top 10, hell top 15 at your position is pretty freaking stellar.

Then yo weren't looking at reputable known publications.

[Old Dog]

Seems as though the NFL should be an authority on this topic....the list on NFL.com says
Elway is #9....seems about right

https://www.nfl.com/news/top-25-quar...p3000001035041

[Old Dog]

Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco

Then yo weren't looking at reputable known publications.

You can continue to stomp your feet and hold your breath like some petulant child, but at the end of the day, you're still going to be wrong.

[RealSNR]

"Look I get it you hated John Elway so you refuse to give him any credit. And I in no way am biased in my analysis of him as an all-time top 5 QB because he happened to play for my favorite team. No sir. All I bring are hard stats like telling people you had to watch him play otherwise you're a moron."

[RealSNR]

Len Dawson has two seasons with more TD passes than any of Elway's seasons. And he did that in 14-game seasons.

Garcia: Reeeeeeeeeeeves!!!!!!!

[Mile High Mania]

Originally Posted by RealSNR

"Look I get it you hated John Elway so you refuse to give him any credit. And I in no way am biased in my analysis of him as an all-time top 5 QB because he happened to play for my favorite team. No sir. All I bring are hard stats like telling people you had to watch him play otherwise you're a moron."

All I know is you put Eli over him... I'll give the guy credit, he stopped Brady from winning two more rings and he threw a nice pass to OBJ. But, better than Elway? Nah.

[Mecca]

I could argue that Eli and Elway are kind of similar actually....other than Elway has more big stage beatdown embarrassing loses.