Broncos news megathread

[ROYC75]

Discussion: All things Broncos.

[Mile High Mania]

Originally Posted by TEX

We get it, you're a Cheating Donx fan. You think Elway was much better than he really was. Top 10 - yes. Top 5? No way. Dont take our word for it, just google, "All time best NFL QB's and see how they rank. You'll be hard pressed to find Mr. Ed in the top 5. Way more put him somewhere 6 - 10, just like most people here.

Top 10… fine by me, so many arguments can be made for the top 10-12 all time.

[TEX]

Originally Posted by Mile High Mania

Top 10… fine by me, so many arguments can be made for the top 10-12 all time.

Exactly. I have no problem putting Elway in the top 10. And, closer to 5 than 10 for that matter. The game is more than just numbers, and he definately had the "More" part.

[kcgreene]

Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco

For goodness sake Brett favre lost to Elway in the Super Bowl.

Anyone with any shred of intellectual honesty knows that doesn't mean a damn thing. Teams win championships. Anyone who claims a QB is better SOLELY because they beat the other is either stupid or intentionally obtuse. In this case, Nick Foles is a better quarterback than Tom Brady, and by your same logic, Phil Simms and Doug Williams are better quarterbacks than Elway.

Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco

I get it. you guys don't like Elway cuz he spent the better part of 16 years ripping your heart out and knocked you out of the playoffs in your home stadium.

He was literally 17-12 (.586) against us all time and 9-8 when we were halfway competent. You act as if this is Mahomes going 11-0 against the Broncos, when it couldn't be further from the truth.

Seriously, the mental gymnastics I see being performed in this thread by Donks fans...

[RaidersOftheCellar]

Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco

Graham Marino Brees Unitas Rogers and Favre were not better than Elway. For goodness sake Brett favre lost to Elway in the Super Bowl.

I get it. you guys don't like Elway cuz he spent the better part of 16 years ripping your heart out and knocked you out of the playoffs in your home stadium.

Should we list all the QBs that beat Elway in the playoffs? Casual fans probably haven’t even heard of half of them.

Like somebody said, 17-12 isn’t that lopsided, and KC was about .500 against him in the 90s after they became competent. Not sure why anyone’s heart would be ripped out by the losses in the 80s. Oh no, we would've finished 5-11 if not for that bastard Elway!!

Some fans might have bitterness toward Elway for the '97 playoff game, because that was a really good KC team. But personally, my anger was directed toward Schottenheimer for starting Grbac, or the greased Olinemen, rather than the guy who led his team to 14 points.

What exactly has you convinced that Elway was better than Unitas and Graham? Do you automatically disqualify anyone who played before the 80s? Those guys absolutely dominated their eras. Unitas threw 32 TDs in 1959. 5 more than Elway's best season and he played 4 fewer games. He was also a 3x MVP and runner-up a few more times. 2 NFL championships and a SB win (his prime years were before the SB era). There's really no argument that Elway was more dominant in his era than Unitas or Graham. They were both clearly the top QB of their eras. Elway never was.

[kcgreene]

Originally Posted by TEX

Exactly. I have no problem putting Elway in the top 10. And, closer to 5 than 10 for that matter. The game is more than just numbers, and he definately had the "More" part.

See this is reasonable. To me he'd be closer to the bottom of that Top 10 or maybe just outside of it, but this is a take I can fully respect.

Just because I realize how overrated he has become by sportswriters and the public doesn't mean I don't think he was great. He was a damn good quarterback.

I'm just sick of people putting him in the Top 5 through their nostalgia glasses and their (seemingly) only arguments are a Reeves argument that no dataset supports, and the "You just had to watch him play". There's a reason eyewitness testimony has proven to be very unreliable in court, because it can be easily manipulated.

Stats mean something Dammit!!!

[kcgreene]

Originally Posted by RaidersOftheCellar

What exactly has you convinced that Elway was better than Unitas and Graham? Do you automatically disqualify anyone who played before the 80s? Those guys absolutely dominated their eras. Unitas threw 32 TDs in 1959. 5 more than Elway's best season and he played 4 fewer games. He was also a 3x MVP and runner-up a few more times. 2 NFL championships and a SB win (his prime years were before the SB era). There's really no argument that Elway was more dominant in his era than Unitas or Graham. They were both clearly the top QB of their eras. Elway never was.

Unitas and Graham. Both beasts. Both best of their era. Both better than Elway.

There's too much hate on the older legends.

[kcgreene]

Also fun fact about Otto Graham:

Otto Graham's last loss to a professional football team was to the Kansas City Chiefs.... as a coach.

He coached the college team in the College All-Star Game in 1970 for his tenth and final time. The college stars lost for the seventh time in a row that year, falling 24–3 to the Kansas City Chiefs.

Don't see enough Otto Graham sightings on here to share that tidbit anywhere else.

[Wallcrawler]

John Elway is probably one of the most overrated quarterbacks ever. He had a big arm with marginal scrambling ability.

The guy is a career 80 rating qb with 57% completions with 300tds against 226 ints.

If not for the absolute pile driving of Terrell Davis' career with back to back 400+ touch campaigns over the 97-98 seasons, Elway probably never wins a Superbowl.

Terrell Davis' body was sacrificed for back to back titles, and he never played more than what, 6 games in his following 3 seasons before he retired?

411 touches for 2037 total yards 15td in 97.

417 touches for 2,225 total yards 23 td in 98.

They destroyed this dude and Elway reaped the rewards.

Saying Favre lost to Elway is a joke. He lost to Terrell Davis, because at one point, Davis couldn't even see during a migraine, and all that was needed was the fake to him to score because the Packer defense was so focused on him.

[Mile High Mania]

Originally Posted by kcgreene

Unitas and Graham. Both beasts. Both best of their era. Both better than Elway.

There's too much hate on the older legends.

I don't hate on the older guys, I just never saw them play aside from highlights. The late 70s is about as far back as I can go and that's when you had 3 stations and maybe 4 NFL games to watch in a given week.

[RaidersOftheCellar]

Originally Posted by kcgreene

Unitas and Graham. Both beasts. Both best of their era. Both better than Elway.

There's too much hate on the older legends.

Yep. Elway didn't dominate his era to nearly the extent that Montana, Brady, Graham, Unitas, Staubach, or Mahomes has so far in this era. I think you probably have to start your list with those guys, plus Manning/Brees and probably Rodgers and Favre. I'd have Young ahead of him too. He would have had amazing career numbers/achievements if he hadn't spent half his career sitting behind Montana.

[Pablo]

John was certainly a hand-off machine. And a drunk. Maybe Top 20 all-time is more appropriate.

[wazu]

I'm glad that in addition to all of the news about how much the current Broncos suck, we were able to establish in this thread that they were never really good and John Elway also sucked.

[Garcia Bronco]

6 AFC championship games, 5 Super Bowl Starts, League MVP, Super Bowl MVP, 3rd in all-time TDs at retirement in a running league, retired with the Most wins ever by a starting QB. Name the QBs that have started 5 Super Bowls. It's a short list.

[Pablo]

Originally Posted by wazu

I'm glad that in addition to all of the news about how much the current Broncos suck, we were able to establish in this thread that they were never really good and John Elway also sucked.

Oh I don't think he sucked. He was definitely above average. Ben Roethlisberger tier is probably most appropriate. I'd give Ben the edge but they're close

[kcgreene]

While we're piling on Horseface, I did a little digging on some stat lines and also did a little math to find some interesting stats regarding Dan Reeves and his Quarterbacks.

John Elway's 16 game averages under Dan Reeves:

54.7 Comp %, 482 Att, 3357 Yds, 17.55 TDs, 17.44 INTs, 7.0 YPA, 73.8 Passer Rating

Now let's look at 1981 Broncos. 38 Year old Craig Morton playing under Dan Reeves:

59.8 Comp %, 376 att, 3195 Yds, 21 TDs, 14 INTs, 8.5 YPA, 90.5 Passer Rating

Now let's do one more, let's look at the Dan Reeves system in Atlanta:
The 16 Game Average of QB Chris Chandler from 1997-2001:

58.7 Comp %/ 393 Att/3121 Yds/20.47 TDs/13.17 INTs/7.9 YPA/87.4 Passer Rating

Yea... further digging is showing Elway is more overrated than I was even perceiving. Literally when you control for coach he is worse than legendary two time pro bowler Chris Chandler.

I mean, I know Chris Chandler and Craig Morton under the same coach is a pretty high bar for Elway to meet, but...