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[ROYC75]

Discussion: All things Broncos.

[Red Dawg]

Here come 16 and 17 straight wins this season. Suck it Donkeyland.

[RaidersOftheCellar]

Originally Posted by RedinTexas

The game evolves. The rules Elway played under were also different than the rules that previous generations had played under. Elway had advantages that QBs like Namath, Unitas, Luckman, Graham, Bradshaw, etc did not. How much did Elway benefit from rules changes over previous QBs?

Obviously rules have changed to benefit QBs, but the thing that irks me is that no one ever acknowledges that players are also bigger, faster and stronger than they were decades ago. Players would be getting killed without the rules changes.

The most dominant QB of Elway's era (Montana) barely weighed 200 at 6'2. How long would he/they have lasted if they were consistently taking hits from dudes like this?

[RaidersOftheCellar]

Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco

He retired with the most wins all time by a QB.

So what did, say, Otto Graham have to do to be more accomplished than Elway in your eyes? Be born later? Lobby for the league to add more games to a season? Win the championship every season instead of just 7 of 10?

You guys are quick to say that we can't compare the numbers of any QB since Elway retired, yet you're comparing Elway's numbers to players who retired decades before him. Playing far more games/seasons is a much bigger advantage than any rule change.

[wazu]

Originally Posted by RunKC

Phillip Rivers is 10th all time in wins. Should we crown him?

Rivers absolutely destroys Elway in every statistical passing category.

[tredadda]

Originally Posted by Coochie liquor

He’s playing in the conference with Mahomes. He’s not winning another ring.

Yeah, if he couldn’t win in the much easier NFC, not sure how he wins in the AFC.

[ptlyon]

Originally Posted by RaidersOftheCellar

Obviously rules have changed to benefit QBs]

Remember that Monday night game Elway complained to the refs he couldn't hear and they started throwing flags on us?

Pepperidge farm remembers.

[Mile High Mania]

Originally Posted by RaidersOftheCellar

So what did, say, Otto Graham have to do to be more accomplished than Elway in your eyes? Be born later? Lobby for the league to add more games to a season? Win the championship every season instead of just 7 of 10?

You guys are quick to say that we can't compare the numbers of any QB since Elway retired, yet you're comparing Elway's numbers to players who retired decades before him. Playing far more games/seasons is a much bigger advantage than any rule change.

That has not been my intent at all. As has been said, it's just difficult to compare players from different eras. Every decade things evolve and advance.

My point with looking at the last 25 years, yeah there are a couple of phenomenal QB talents that have the longevity, stats and "wow factor" from watching them play. I think you look at guys like Ryan, Rivers, Stafford and several others and point to what are their memorable moments? What did they do in their body of work that makes them different. Hell, they'll all get into the HOF, but that doesn't really speak to their place in the game.

Right now we are seeing the 'golden age' of QBs for the most part. Players are bigger, stronger faster, rules are different and offensive schemes are different and more wide open.

Just look at the list of all-time 4,000+ yard passers... the great bulk of those QBs and seasons it has happened have been within the last quarter century.

There's not one stat or collection of stats that cements greatness. Hell, Aikman has a lot of accolades and 3 rings. I don't know if anyone can point to more than 3 games where they say "Troy won this one".

Strip people of their fandom biases and ask them to put up the best 12-15 QBs of all time, the lists will include 95% of the same QBs - order doesn't really matter.

Obviously, Montana and Brady will be 1A/1B for most... but there are another 12-13 players that are locks for the all-time greats. And, honestly I don't care where you rank any of them - they're dominant and belong on the list.

[Mile High Mania]

Originally Posted by ptlyon

Remember that Monday night game Elway complained to the refs he couldn't hear and they started throwing flags on us?

Pepperidge farm remembers.

[Garcia Bronco]

Originally Posted by RaidersOftheCellar

So what did, say, Otto Graham have to do to be more accomplished than Elway in your eyes? Be born later? Lobby for the league to add more games to a season? Win the championship every season instead of just 7 of 10?

You guys are quick to say that we can't compare the numbers of any QB since Elway retired, yet you're comparing Elway's numbers to players who retired decades before him. Playing far more games/seasons is a much bigger advantage than any rule change.

Who says Otto Graham wasn't great. Those players are all great. Johnny U, Bart Starr, Montana, Aikmen, Farve, etc.

But don't piss on my shoes and try to tell me its raining. Elway was great. Most Wins, Most Super Bowl starts, Finally defeated the NFC, Super Bowl MVP....gosh..what more do you want?

[New World Order]

Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco

Who says Otto Graham wasn't great. Those players are all great. Johnny U, Bart Starr, Montana, Aikmen, Farve, etc.

But don't piss on my shoes and try to tell me its raining. Elway was great. Most Wins, Most Super Bowl starts, Finally defeated the NFC, Super Bowl MVP....gosh..what more do you want?

A Qb who didn’t need to rely on an elite running game to finally win his first sb after 15 years?

[Garcia Bronco]

Originally Posted by New World Order

A Qb who didn’t need to rely on an elite running game to finally win his first sb after 15 years?

That would be odd.

[New World Order]

Originally Posted by Garcia Bronco

That would be odd.

Serious question:

In your rankings would Elway be ahead of Mahomes?

[tredadda]

Originally Posted by Mile High Mania

That has not been my intent at all. As has been said, it's just difficult to compare players from different eras. Every decade things evolve and advance.

My point with looking at the last 25 years, yeah there are a couple of phenomenal QB talents that have the longevity, stats and "wow factor" from watching them play. I think you look at guys like Ryan, Rivers, Stafford and several others and point to what are their memorable moments? What did they do in their body of work that makes them different. Hell, they'll all get into the HOF, but that doesn't really speak to their place in the game.

Right now we are seeing the 'golden age' of QBs for the most part. Players are bigger, stronger faster, rules are different and offensive schemes are different and more wide open.

Just look at the list of all-time 4,000+ yard passers... the great bulk of those QBs and seasons it has happened have been within the last quarter century.

There's not one stat or collection of stats that cements greatness. Hell, Aikman has a lot of accolades and 3 rings. I don't know if anyone can point to more than 3 games where they say "Troy won this one".

Strip people of their fandom biases and ask them to put up the best 12-15 QBs of all time, the lists will include 95% of the same QBs - order doesn't really matter.

Obviously, Montana and Brady will be 1A/1B for most... but there are another 12-13 players that are locks for the all-time greats. And, honestly I don't care where you rank any of them - they're dominant and belong on the list.

Agreed. The best way to evaluate the greatness of an athlete over eras is to look at how they performed in comparison with their peers. Elway is probably Top 10-15 all time, but nowhere in the Top 5 as he was never even considered the best of his era.

[Mile High Mania]

Originally Posted by tredadda

Agreed. The best way to evaluate the greatness of an athlete over eras is to look at how they performed in comparison with their peers. Elway is probably Top 10-15 all time, but nowhere in the Top 5 as he was never even considered the best of his era.

Curious.. of his peers, who was greater?

[tredadda]

Originally Posted by Mile High Mania

Curious.. of his peers, who was greater?

Montana and Marino off the top of my head.