Ty Cobb is second now

[HemiEd]

Baseball Integrates Leaderboards

Major League Baseball officially updated its statistics leaderboard yesterday to include 2,300 qualifying men who played in the Negro Leagues between 1920 and 1948. The integration incorporates findings from a three-year research process initiated after MLB first recognized the Negro Leagues as major leagues in December 2020.



The update reshapes long-standing leaderboards, with legendary power hitter and Hall of Fame catcher Josh Gibson now recognized as the all-time leader in career batting average with a .372 mark, passing prior leader, Ty Cobb. Lifetime numbers from MLB players reflecting their time in the Negro Leagues were also recognized, including those of Jackie Robinson, Willie Mays, and Satchel Paige. See a rundown of leaderboard changes here. https://www.mlb.com/news/stats-leade...ro-leagues-mlb



Tacit bans in the major leagues forced Black players to create their own leagues in the first half of the 20th century. Jackie Robinson broke the sport's racial barrier when he made his debut with the Brooklyn Dodgers in 1947

[MarkDavis'Haircut]

Originally Posted by Ocotillo

The other thing is that Negro League stats are shoddy, incomplete for obvious reasons.

Take for example John Henry "Pop" Lloyd. Babe Ruth apparently called him the greatest player he ever saw. But nobody knows for sure because Monte Irvin revealed that info in a radio interview he heard.

That's what makes the Negro Leagues so fascinating is there is a mythology, folklore surrounding these players and that's OK. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

The folklore and mythology is amazing. The fact is, they announced this in 2020 after Floyd. It was a reactionary move. You could honor them without adding stats from seven separate leagues.

And then they even chose an arbitrary cutoff of 1948. Hank Aaron played briefly for a Negro League team in the 50s but those stats aren't included.

It was two different levels of ball. Bill James calculated the Negro Leagues to be at AA-AAA level. Folks rag on the white players of the time for not facing all the best talent but then say hey the Negro Leaguers are easily as good despite facing at best 1/5 of the best talent of the era.

Baseball Fever has a great thread on the topic: https://www.baseball-fever.com/forum...rd-books/page2

[kysirsoze]

Originally Posted by MarkDavis'Haircut

Well, the Negro Leagues had, at best, 20% of the best talent around.

So if you are going to criticize white players for facing lesser talent, then the Negro Leagues were facing even a smaller talent pool.

The obvious difference being the Negro Leagues weren't the ones reducing the talent pool.

[MarkDavis'Haircut]

Originally Posted by kysirsoze

The obvious difference being the Negro Leagues weren't the ones reducing the talent pool.

That doesn't change the fact they were still playing a shallower pool. You can't criticize Babe Ruth for facing a smaller pool while ignoring it for Gibson.

[DJJasonp]

Ichiro says "hmmmmm......"

[srvy]

I have a question as I don't have any idea about it. When did Latin America start playing baseball? Should MLB start digging through those statistics?

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by MarkDavis'Haircut

The folklore and mythology is amazing. The fact is, they announced this in 2020 after Floyd. It was a reactionary move. You could honor them without adding stats from seven separate leagues.

And then they even chose an arbitrary cutoff of 1948. Hank Aaron played briefly for a Negro League team in the 50s but those stats aren't included.

It was two different levels of ball. Bill James calculated the Negro Leagues to be at AA-AAA level. Folks rag on the white players of the time for not facing all the best talent but then say hey the Negro Leaguers are easily as good despite facing at best 1/5 of the best talent of the era.

Baseball Fever has a great thread on the topic: https://www.baseball-fever.com/forum...rd-books/page2

Yeah I mean... I'm torn on putting Gibson at #1 but at the same time don't feel sorry for cobb being put at #2. Even if negro league talent on average wasn't as good, if you took the top negro league pitchers it would bump up the quality of pitching cobb saw. I mean Japanese leagues are way worse than MLB but imagine what a loss it would be not have ohtani be a part of it. Someone else would've cleaned up those mvps.

[Wisconsin_Chief]

This just seems like they're revising history for the sake of looking good in certain people's eyes. I doubt they're doing it for the right reasons, but whatever. It probably should have been done a long time ago, though.

All that said, I wonder how the players of the old Negro League would honestly feel about this. If I was in their positions, I wouldn't want the stats merged because I wouldn't want people to forget the true past of what I had to deal with, but hey, I'm just a 39 year old white guy. I definitely get a kick out of the rage I'm seeing on social media, just as bad as the Butker situation but from the other end of the spectrum. Just don't get all the outrage over sports, it's supposed to be fun. If you're not enjoying it for reasons like this, I don't see the point of being a fan.

[MarkDavis'Haircut]

It is also statistically inconsistent.

As for career leaderboards, the current standard for career MLB leaders is 5,000 at-bats and 2,000 innings pitched, which roughly equates to 10 full qualifying seasons (5,020 at-bats and 1,620 innings). Therefore, for Negro Leagues players, this standard has been set at 1,800 at-bats and 600 innings -- roughly the equivalent of 10 seasons’ worth of 60-game seasons."

Lefty O'Doul played 970 games and had 3264 at-bats. Hit .349 for his career. Nowhere on the new leaderboards while players with few games are there.

[kysirsoze]

Originally Posted by MarkDavis'Haircut

That doesn't change the fact they were still playing a shallower pool. You can't criticize Babe Ruth for facing a smaller pool while ignoring it for Gibson.

I can see that. But I'm not criticizing Ruth since, AFAIK, he wasn't in any way responsible for the situation. But neither was Gibson. If the baseball leagues of the time wanted to protect the legacy of their great players, they probably shouldn't have excluded people that would have been legitimate competitors.

[MarkDavis'Haircut]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Yeah I mean... I'm torn on putting Gibson at #1 but at the same time don't feel sorry for cobb being put at #2. Even if negro league talent on average wasn't as good, if you took the top negro league pitchers it would bump up the quality of pitching cobb saw. I mean Japanese leagues are way worse than MLB but imagine what a loss it would be not have ohtani be a part of it. Someone else would've cleaned up those mvps.

Except Cobb might have hit those pitchers. Some hall of famers slammed other hall of famers while struggling against journeymen and vice versa. Pete Rose had an interview with Colin Cowherd about that. It is a great listen.

[tredadda]

Originally Posted by MarkDavis'Haircut

Except the MLB players at the time played against 75-80% of the best talent available while Negro League players competed against 25% at best.

That’s based on what though? Without giving African American players the same opportunity as white MLB players there is no way to say that with certainty.

[Ocotillo]

Originally Posted by MarkDavis'Haircut

The folklore and mythology is amazing. The fact is, they announced this in 2020 after Floyd. It was a reactionary move. You could honor them without adding stats from seven separate leagues.

I agree, mainly because the statistical record is spotty and I feel the mythology and folklore is what draws people to the Negro Leagues.

Negro League history is as celebrated as it's ever been with the players being included this year on MLB The Show, the podcast Black Diamonds on Sirius XM which is done by the outstanding Bob Kendrick, the All-Star Game of retired Black players at Cooperstown last week, and the MLB game they are playing at Rickwood Field in Birmingham, Alabama, next month.

Compared to pre-Buck O'Neil on Ken Burns' Baseball, the exposure is light years ahead.

[MarkDavis'Haircut]

Originally Posted by Wisconsin_Chief

This just seems like they're revising history for the sake of looking good in certain people's eyes. I doubt they're doing it for the right reasons, but whatever. It probably should have been done a long time ago, though.

All that said, I wonder how the players of the old Negro League would honestly feel about this. If I was in their positions, I wouldn't want the stats merged because I wouldn't want people to forget the true past of what I had to deal with, but hey, I'm just a 39 year old white guy. I definitely get a kick out of the rage I'm seeing on social media, just as bad as the Butker situation but from the other end of the spectrum. Just don't get all the outrage over sports, it's supposed to be fun. If you're not enjoying it for reasons like this, I don't see the point of being a fan.

Chief,

The initiative was launched in summer 2020. Draw your own conclusions on why it was decided.

At this point, they need to add the National Association and the Japanese Leagues. They opened the dam.

The Union League should never have been included. But again, the 1969 committee was creating a baseball encyclopedia and their main criteria was available data. People don't realize how important the 1969 MacMillan encyclopedia was. It changed the game and directly assisted in hall of fame inductions for several players. Now all that data is available in one Google search!

[Ocotillo]

Originally Posted by srvy

I have a question as I don't have any idea about it. When did Latin America start playing baseball? Should MLB start digging through those statistics?

One of the Negro League greats was Cuban Martin Dihigo, whose complexion was too dark to play in the majors.

Like Satchel Paige, he was a guy who played year-round, making money in barnstorming tours and Caribbean winter leagues.

https://baseballhall.org/hall-of-famers/dihigo-martin

[MarkDavis'Haircut]

Originally Posted by tredadda

That’s based on what though? Without giving African American players the same opportunity as white MLB players there is no way to say that with certainty.

European-American, not white.

Based on after integration the high water mark for African-American players in the MLB was around 27%.

We don't know for certain but we can take a reasonable guess.

Baseball Fever has done some great research on this topic. One of my favorite baseball websites.