***Official 2021 STL Cardinals Thread***

[BigRedChief]

2021 Opening Day Lineup

Spoiler!

1. Tommy Edman (S) - 2B
2. Paul Goldschmidt (R) - 1B
3. Nolan Arenado (R) - 3B
4. Paul DeJong (R) - SS
5. Tyler O'Neill (R) - LF
6. Yadier Molina (R) - C
7. Dylan Carlson (S) - CF
8. Justin Williams (L) - RF
9. Pitcher

For the new Cardinal fans that joined the Planet since last year.....

2020 Thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=329273
2019 Thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=320239
2018 Thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=312812
2012 Thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=254619
etc.
All the way back to 2006 WS
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=312812

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Marcellus

He could have used Lester, Happ, or anyone but Reyes FFS. "You just can't" isn't a valid excuse. You know who you just cant send into that situation? Alex ****ing Ryes. The excuses about the bullpen in that situation are just that, excuses. They had 2 days off before the game and would have had 2 after the game. There weren't only 2 options.

Carpenter had 207 at bats this season playing worse than last season when he had fewer so stop with your downplaying it. And Schildt was batting him in the middle of the goddamn lineup. That's firing territory alone just for being a goddman dumbass.

And it sounds like you should be impressed with Albert since the offense is the only thing that woke up in September.

Schildt is the Alex Smith of managers.

Lester and Happ - both lefties, both starters. You want to go from a productive lefty reliever to a lefty starter on short warmup to face a guy that smokes lefties. And I'm supposed to pretend you're paying attention to ANYTHING I've said thus far?

I haven't given you excuses, champ. I've given you reasons. Answers. I've bought you the books and you're eating the pages. You're actually making WORSE arguments as you go somehow. I point out that you don't throw starters out there like they're relievers and that we've seen a dozen times how that's gone - INCLUDING one of the more egregious examples of it in living memory with Michael Wacha and your answer is to cite 2 more starting pitchers. I've told you why leaving a lefty in there to face Taylor is a bad decision, especially one with fringe stuff who can't work inside well anymore and you give me two MORE lefties with fringe stuff - STARTERS at that.

And you just blow right on by the fact that it was Molina who boxed an easy throw/catch on a stolen base attempt that would've gotten them out of the inning and called 3 sliders in 4 pitchers to a guy with a slider speed bat when he knew (or should have known) that Reyes mechanics were off.

As for your Carpenter haranguing: Again - 14 starts in the second half of the season. I'm not 'downplaying it' - I'm telling you he started 14 goddamn games in the 2nd half of the season and you're the one ignoring that Shildt CLEARLY sidelined Matt Carpenter.

I point out several different examples of 'great' managers who have decisions within the last couple of weeks as bad/worse than Shildt going to Reyes and...{crickets}. I show you any number of hurdles Shildt had to clear, times he's had to coax genuinely excellent performances out of an insanely flawed roster to get to 91 wins. I explain his role in making those wins happen.

Point after point, answer after answer, and I essentially get 'NUH UH, HE SUCKS!' and I'm supposed to act like you know your ass from a hole in the ground?

You can betray your own ignorance all you want. It's clear you know precisely **** all about what you're seeing. You honest to god just suggested going from a lefthanded reliever to two lefthanded starters ahead of Alex Reyes and expect to be taken seriously.

Jesus Christ, you can't even spell his name right. But please, continue to lecture me on how poor a job he's done. You're clearly right on top of it.

Like I said - weapons grade stupidity.

[Rams Fan]

There was literally no good option unless you trusted Mikolas coming out of the bullpen in that situation.

That's an indictment on Mo.

I would have had no problem with Mikolas or Kim starting the 9th, but to put them in a situation like that, which they aren't used to in the middle of an inning, is asking for disaster.

Hudson or Flaherty would've resulted in Wacha 2.0

Retrospect: Shildt should've just done an opener strategy with Lester, then have Wainwright or Mikolas come in.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Rams Fan

If we're being quite honest, putting Happ, Lester, or Reyes in that situation is pretty much playing a game of Russian roulette. Happ and Lester should have been nowhere near a playoff team's roster in 2021. Scherzer is actually a good pitcher. Happ and Lester are not.

And the situation you painted with Scherzer is completely different. Scherzer came in a closing situation at the start of an inning.

The Cardinals, if things had worked out well after McFarland, would have gone to extras, at which point I'd have wanted Hudson and Flaherty.

There's literally no one in the rotation that I'd want to handle that situation except for Wainwright(who started) and MAYBE Mikolas.

The excuses aren't excuses. Mozeliak literally gave Shildt dog shit to work with in the bullpen aside from 3, maybe 4, relievers who were available that night (which he used before the 9th).

Scherzer knew when the game started that he'd likely be used to close it out. He was warming as the inning started to come into the 9th of that game. He's also been healthy all season as opposed to Hudson and Flaherty. But yeah, completely sound veteran arms are clearly the same as 2 young guys, one of whom has come back early from major surgery, the other has been fighting nagging arm issues all season. Clearly no reason to believe they'd take a little more time to get warm.

I've said I would've had no problem giving the ball to Whitley to try to get out of that inning and then turn it over clean to Flaherty or Hudson. I've said that's probably what I would've done, even.

But no, you don't go to a starting pitcher in a jam situation. Especially not younger ones coming off recent injury. Again, the Cardinals have had this exact situation with Michael Wacha and even money says Marcellus bitched up a storm when that decision was made.

This is a ridiculous discussion.

[Rams Fan]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Scherzer knew when the game started that he'd likely be used to close it out. He was warming as the inning started to come into the 9th of that game. He's also been healthy all season as opposed to Hudson and Flaherty. But yeah, completely sound veteran arms are clearly the same as 2 young guys, one of whom has come back early from major surgery, the other has been fighting nagging arm issues all season. Clearly no reason to believe they'd take a little more time to get warm.

I've said I would've had no problem giving the ball to Whitley to try to get out of that inning and then turn it over clean to Flaherty or Hudson. I've said that's probably what I would've done, even.

But no, you don't go to a starting pitcher in a jam situation. Especially not younger ones coming off recent injury. Again, the Cardinals have had this exact situation with Michael Wacha and even money says Marcellus bitched up a storm when that decision was made.

This is a ridiculous discussion.

I don't even have an issue with a starter coming out of the bullpen in the POs when healthy. Bumgarner probably had the most insane postseason of all time doing that in 2014.

I have an issue with putting in 2 starters, who just came back from injury, in a 9th inning win or go home situation with a tied score (aka Wacha).

I have an issue with putting in 2 terrible pitching options who somehow out performed their metrics in high leverage situations.

I literally don't know what else could have been to avoid that outcome other than going to an opener strategy and relying on a Lester/Mikolas/Wainwright combination, which would have not even guaranteed a victory and absolutely destroyed the rotation for the next series.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Rams Fan

There was literally no good option unless you trusted Mikolas coming out of the bullpen in that situation.

That's an indictment on Mo.

I would have had no problem with Mikolas or Kim starting the 9th, but to put them in a situation like that, which they aren't used to in the middle of an inning, is asking for disaster.

Hudson or Flaherty would've resulted in Wacha 2.0

Retrospect: Shildt should've just done an opener strategy with Lester, then have Wainwright or Mikolas come in.

If you go with Mikolas, you're facing Lux and probably McKinney. I like facing Pujols and Souza quite a bit more there. Additionally, Gallegos finger thing popped up fairly quickly and so Mikolas wouldn't have had a ton of time to get warm. Why go to a starter yet when you have an effective lefty reliever already warm who can burn some of the Dodgers (already short) bench? And there's really no good argument starting Kim in the 9th over McFarland, who's significantly out-pitched Kim of late.

I'm not just throwing shit at the wall here - I've gone through this before I said something as stupid as "Why not Happ or Lester?!?!". He had 2 choices, - Reyes and Whitley. There aren't very good arguments in favor of literally anyone else we had available.

[Rams Fan]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

If you go with Mikolas, you're facing Lux and probably McKinney. I like facing Pujols and Souza quite a bit more there. Additionally, Gallegos finger thing popped up fairly quickly and so Mikolas wouldn't have had a ton of time to get warm. Why go to a starter yet when you have an effective lefty reliever already warm who can burn some of the Dodgers (already short) bench? And there's really no good argument starting Kim in the 9th over McFarland, who's significantly out-pitched Kim of late.

I'm not just throwing shit at the wall here - I've gone through this before I said something as stupid as "Why not Happ or Lester?!?!". He had 2 choices, - Reyes and Whitley. There aren't very good arguments in favor of literally anyone else we had available.

I am throwing shit out there because I literally have no idea what else could have been done to avoid that situation(start of the the 9th) other than doing something like that, praying you get to extras. Or go to an opener strategy.

I still wouldn't want Mikolas or Kim coming in the middle of an inning.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Rams Fan

I am throwing shit out there because I literally have no idea what else could have been done to avoid that situation(start of the the 9th) other than doing something like that, praying you get to extras. Or go to an opener strategy.

I still wouldn't want Mikolas or Kim coming in the middle of an inning.

Right - I'm not criticizing you. You've been even-handed here.

I agree that if you go with Mikolas or Kim, it's to start the inning. I'm simply pointing out that I've even considered that possibility and I don't see either of those as better options than going with a lefty who's forced himself into the circle of trust and who really created some issues with the Dodger bench. Additionally, he was the best suited guy to get out of the inning clean because if he gets the two pinch hitters out, he's facing a guy in Bellinger who was, I shit you not, worse than Matt Carpenter this year. Folks, Cody Bellinger had a .383 OPS against lefties this year. Not OBP, Not SLG - his O.P.S. against lefties was .383.

Of COURSE you look to a lefty to start that inning. You force Roberts to burn a couple bench options and take out a couple starters. And you theoretically get the easiest AB of the game you'll get in a lefty vs. Bellinger matchup. McFarland walked him. Inning should've been over right then and again, Mike can't throw 'em for him. It was an awful walk at the worst possible time.

But the setup was right there. Shildt pulled the right lever starting that inning with McFarland.

[DJ's left nut]

Man - watch that AB again.

Taylor's sitting dead red slider. If Reyes executes it it's a grounder to SS and if Molina calls a fastball at best Taylor fights it off but he probably rolls it over to 2b.

I just don't understand why Molina went with another slider there. Especially on a 2-1 count. It wasn't even a putaway pitch. You have essentially a free strike if you get a fastball anywhere near the zone and very probably a grounder to get out of the inning.

If you get that strike maybe you chance another slider there, but even if he executes the 2-1 slider to get to 2-2, now Taylor's protecting fastball with 2 strikes so you either go with a 4th slider in 5 pitchers (shudder), or you throw him a fastball that he's already gearing up for.

It was just really strange pitch selection. I don't get it at all.

[jd1020]

I want to say the last time Lester came out of the pen he promptly bounced a pitch in the dirt that ricocheted off Ross' helmet and scored 2 runs that almost blew game 7 of the WS. Definitely should have brought him in. Definitely.

[Jewish Rabbi]

Lester and Happ weren't even on the WC roster

[Chief Roundup]

So out of the names being thrown around who do you all prefer?

Oliver Marmol
Stubby Clapp
Jose Oquendo
Skip Schumaker
Matt Holliday
Mark McGuire
Joe McEwing
Eduardo Perez
Mark Derosa
Joe Esparza
Bruce Bochy
Brad Ausmus
Jeff Bannister

Got someone else in mind?

[Jewish Rabbi]

Originally Posted by Chief Roundup

So out of the names being thrown around who do you all prefer?

Oliver Marmol
Stubby Clapp
Jose Oquendo
Skip Schumaker
Matt Holliday
Mark McGuire
Joe McEwing
Eduardo Perez
Mark Derosa
Joe Esparza
Bruce Bochy
Brad Ausmus
Jeff Bannister

Got someone else in mind?

None of those names bring even a hint of an erection to my penis.

[Jewish Rabbi]

If I had to guess, it’ll end up being Skip if Mo thinks he’s enough of a yes man bitch.

[DJ's left nut]

I’d probable lay 3-1 odds that it’ll be Oliver Marmol.

And I’m just gonna say this - if anyone thinks that Marmol is a smarter, more capable baseball guy than Mike Shildt, they’re going to be REALLY disappointed.

Frankly, anyone who disliked Shildt, who did so much to return this franchise to the ‘Cardinal Way’ style of play despite Mom’s best efforts, you’re going to dislike whoever replaces him. If you’re extremely lucky that manager will win more games playing a far less entertaining brand of baseball.

But more likely he’s going to win fewer games, drive you just as crazy over a 162 game season and take this team further away from the product you wanted to see.

[Marcellus]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Bringing in Reyes in that spot was a fireable offense regardless of past history.

Wanna argue this DJ or Rams fan?