Lord of the Rings - Rings of Power

[BigRedChief]

Premieres Sept. 2nd

[ScareCrowe]

Originally Posted by staylor26

Nah, this is just a cop out at this point.


And you seem to not understand why GOT/HOTD and TROP are directly compared, and it's not just because they're both fantasy series and aired around the same time.

It's literally what Amazon was going for. They admittedly were trying to make this their GOT. That's why they did things like turning the violence/gore up a notch.

It's funny that you say that because everything I've read indicates the opposite. They were going for a family friendly fantasy series. I literally read an article 2 days ago saying this very thing.

https://www.businessinsider.com/amaz...olence-2022-10

Amazon Studios head Jennifer Salke doesn't want Amazon's "Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power" compared to its big-budget fantasy counterpart, HBO's "Game of Thrones" — at least in terms of the show's tone.

"We knew from the beginning that this was not our 'Game of Thrones,'" Salke told Variety. "In fact, the fans spoke up from the minute the deal was closed, saying, 'Please don't try to insert sex and a level of provocative violence,' things that don't feel true to the stories that Tolkien wanted to tell."

And that isn't just them changing their story since there has been some backlash that's what they've said all along. This was in February.

https://aleteia.org/2022/02/11/amazo...mily-friendly/

The goal, he said, was “to make a show for everyone, for kids who are 11, 12, and 13, even though sometimes they might have to pull the blanket up over their eyes if it’s a little too scary. We talked about the tone in Tolkien’s books.

[staylor26]

This is all the way back from 2017:

https://www.businessinsider.com/jeff...nes-2017-9?amp

I'm not saying that they want this show to be exactly like GOT. "They want this to be their GOT" in terms of quality and success within the fantasy genre.

And yes, they claim they want it family friendly, but it also comes off contradictory when you watch the show. The show is significantly more violent/scary (for children) than the LOTR trilogy. That's actually a perfect example of the issues with this show, because on one hand it feels like they want it to be it's own thing, but on the other, it's pretty obvious that they want this to be a GOT type of hit with adults.

[staylor26]

Also from 2017:

"Amazon wants to turn Lord of the Rings into the next Game of Thrones"

https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/3/1...amazon-studios

[ScareCrowe]

Originally Posted by staylor26

This is all the way back from 2017:

https://www.businessinsider.com/jeff...nes-2017-9?amp

I'm not saying that they want this show to be exactly like GOT. "They want this to be their GOT" in terms of quality and success within the fantasy genre.

And yes, they claim they want it family friendly, but it also comes off contradictory when you watch the show. The show is significantly more violent/scary (for children) than the LOTR trilogy. That's actually a perfect example of the issues with this show, because on one hand it feels like they want it to be it's own thing, but on the other, it's pretty obvious that they want this to be a GOT type of hit with adults.

Yeah they want it to be a hit like GOT, but they want it to have a decidedly different tone. In fact your quote also says they don't want it to be exactly like GOT.

Originally Posted by staylor26

Also from 2017:

"Amazon wants to turn Lord of the Rings into the next Game of Thrones"

https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/3/1...amazon-studios

This is an author's opinion with no input from anyone from Amazon or the show itself. And they're still not saying the show will have the same tone. They just mean they want this to be their big fantasy series the way GOT is for HBO.

From your article:

While The Lord of the Rings would certainly check all the Game of Thrones boxes when it comes to fantasy and adventure, it is also worth noting that the books aren’t really known for being filled with the kind of sex-and-violence antics that HBO’s show has become synonymous with

[staylor26]

I never said anything specifically about tone, I just noted that they've done things like turn up the violence/gore, which is not even up for debate. Galadriel just made an Orc explode with the swing of a sword, and an Orc slit a woman's throat in the last episode.

I also never said that they want this to be "exactly like GOT".

My point was that this was supposed to be their GOT level hit, so of course it's going to be compared to HOTD/GOT.

[staylor26]

Hollywood isn't much different from the NFL in terms of "copycat league".

Every streaming service wants their GOT. GOT is the standard, even with the POS that is S8.

It's not a coincidence that Bezos was saying he wanted his own GOT for Amazon Studios back in 2017 and here we are now.

That doesn't mean that the showrunners themselves wanted Rings of Power to be exactly like GOT. Of course they have to differentiate it. That's why they're contradicting themselves a bit though. There are parts of this show where it feels like they're trying to have GOT stakes, hence my point about the violence/gore, but there are also parts where they're clearly trying to differentiate and make it more appealing for younger kids.

It turns out that the quality/success of GOT isn't so easy duplicated though.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Buehler445

Heh. You know what episode 6 didn’t have a single second of? Harfoots.

Episode 6 worked for me. Virtually everything it was going for landed. All the stuff with the neumenorians (sp?), the southlanders, the dark elf and Gilandriel, all of it worked and was compelling. And the detonation of mount doom felt epic.

But man. 6 episodes is a LONG time to hang with a show before it turns it on. It’s a good goddamned thing it was absolutely gorgeous.

Excellent point.

The show is quite good and the pacing is even just fine when the goddamn Harfoot's aren't involved.

We need a Gandalf becoming Gandalf montage...

[staylor26]

Yea, it absolutely helped having a more focused episode.

[ScareCrowe]

Originally Posted by staylor26

I literally never said anything specifically about tone, I just noted that they've done things like turn up the violence/gore, which is not even up for debate. Galadriel just made an Orc explode with the swing of a sword, and an Orc slit a woman's throat in the last episode.

You seem to be arguing two different points. Is the show a little darker than the LOTR movie trilogy? Yes. However you said

And you seem to not understand why GOT/HOTD and TROP are directly compared, and it's not just because they're both fantasy series and aired around the same time.

It's literally what Amazon was going for. They admittedly were trying to make this their GOT. That's why they did things like turning the violence/gore up a notch.

I haven't seen anywhere where they said this show would be aimed at adults specifically. The only reference I've been able to find to that at all was that they put out a casting call asking for actors/actresses comfortable with nude scenes. Which led to online rumors that the show was going for a GOT like tone. And a petition was started to keep the sex/violence out of ROP. To which Amazon responded that they were not going for that tone.

Which honestly goes back to why IMO you didn't see a backlash over changing races in HOTD. It's not based on a piece of classic literature who's author is no longer living. It's hard to argue someone is ruining the legacy of the series, or doing things the author was against when the original author is still involved in the show.

My point was that this was supposed to be their GOT level hit, so of course it's going to be compared to HOTD/GOT.

And now you seem to be falling back on "OK so it is being compared just because they are big budget fantasy series running at the same time"

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by staylor26

Also from 2017:

"Amazon wants to turn Lord of the Rings into the next Game of Thrones"

https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/3/1...amazon-studios

Not sure how one can see what they put out there and think they were after the same sort of show as the one that made 'Sexposition' a thing...

Let's be completely fair here - tits and colorful cursing is what got a LOT of people hooked on GOT to begin with. This clearly isn't what LOTR is aiming for.

It's just a different show. Is it high fantasy? Yeah - but was GOT even a high fantasy series in its own right? I mean...not really.

In the end it's like saying 300 was trying to be the same movie as Troy because they both involved Spartans.

They're not tonally similar at all. They're not supposed to be. And that explains a LOT of the creative decisions they made. Folks can editorialize all they want but just look at the choices they made and it's clear they were not looking to be the same animal.

[staylor26]

Amazon/Bezos in 2017:

We want our GOT.

*A few years later they release what is clearly their best attempt at that*

Me:

They clearly wanted this to be their GOT, so it's completely fair that the shows are being compared.

Yes, I understand that there are clear differences in tone, but as I've said, they're also contradicting themselves there. You can't tell me that some of this violence feels appropriate for a show that they're also saying is for 10 year olds. Women having their throat slit by Orcs is not for 10 year olds. I'm pointing out the conflict in trying to make this a GOT level hit while being its own thing. They don't seem to know what exactly they want it to be.

On one hand, they want it to be like LOTR in terms of tone, but then they're also trying to make the Orc's more of a White Walker level threat. You can't tell me that there isn't a contradiction in what they say they're going for, and what it appears they're going for at times.

And when I say that this show isn't GOT, I mean that it isn't anywhere close in terms of quality. Whether it's writing, character development, casting, etc. this show is nowhere near GOT or HOTD, and you can't tell me that's by design when they've spent billions on this series to clearly have their own GOT level hit.

Ultimately, this is a huge failure so far. That doesn't mean they can't turn things around, but right now, this is looking like a HUGE swing and a miss.

[listopencil]

Originally Posted by Buehler445

Heh. You know what episode 6 didn’t have a single second of? Harfoots.

Episode 6 worked for me. Virtually everything it was going for landed. All the stuff with the neumenorians (sp?), the southlanders, the dark elf and Gilandriel, all of it worked and was compelling. And the detonation of mount doom felt epic.

But man. 6 episodes is a LONG time to hang with a show before it turns it on. It’s a good goddamned thing it was absolutely gorgeous.

^

Especially the Harfoot absence.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by staylor26

Amazon/Bezos in 2017:

We want our GOT.

*A few years later they release what is clearly their best attempt at that*

Me:

They clearly wanted this to be their GOT, so it's completely fair that the shows are being compared.

Yes, I understand that there are clear differences in tone, but as I've said, they're also contradicting themselves there. You can't tell me that some of this violence feels appropriate for a show that they're also saying is for 10 year olds. Women having their throat slit by Orcs is not for 10 year olds. I'm pointing out the conflict in trying to make this a GOT level hit while being its own thing. They don't seem to know what exactly they want it to be.

On one hand, they want it to be like LOTR in terms of tone, but then they're also trying to make the Orc's more of a White Walker level threat. You can't tell me that there isn't a contradiction in what they say they're going for, and what it appears they're going for at times.

And when I say that this show isn't GOT, I mean that it isn't anywhere close in terms of quality. Whether it's writing, character development, casting, etc. this show is nowhere near GOT or HOTD, and you can't tell me that's by design when they've spent billions on this series to clearly have their own GOT level hit.

Ultimately, this is a huge failure so far. That doesn't mean they can't turn things around, but right now, this is looking like a HUGE swing and a miss.

People like comparing things. GOT is the nearest comparison, yes.

But it doesn't mean the venn diagrams can/should completely overlap. They're not the same.

I'd say the tone is extremely similar to the LOTR franchise (not the Hobbit, which was toned down a fair amount).

It's just paced at a weekly show level and not a movie level. As was GOT, in fact - again, there were LOADS of complaints about GOT being slow, especially season 1 (and I think season 4 is the one folks also had a problem with; maybe 5).

There's just some revisionist history as it relates to GOTs, IMO.

[staylor26]

Of course there were complaints about GOT. There are always complaints about every show/movie. Breaking Bad is pretty much the consensus GOAT show, and many complained that it started off slow as well.

Starting off slow is FAR from the only issue with this show though.

Even if GOT started off slow, it didn't take long for people to fall in love with certain characters (and hate others just as passionately).

These characters in this show are nowhere near GOT or HOTD. I don't love or hate any of them in the way that it's intended. I mostly feel indifference towards them. Hell, I hate the character that's supposed to be to be the protagonist. That's clearly not the intention.

I saw somebody point out that Rhea Royce in her very short time in HOTD was a more interesting character than anybody in TROP, and I find it really hard to disagree. That's just a perfect example of the contrast in quality.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by staylor26

Of course there were complaints about GOT. There are always complaints about every show/movie. Breaking Bad is pretty much the consensus GOAT show, and many complained that it started off slow as well.

Starting off slow is FAR from the only issue with this show though.

Even if GOT started off slow, it didn't take long for people to fall in love with certain characters (and hate others just as passionately).

These characters in this show are nowhere near GOT or HOTD. I don't love or hate any of them in the way that it's intended. I mostly feel indifference towards them. Hell, I hate the character that's supposed to be to be the protagonist. That's clearly not the intention.

I saw somebody point out that Rhea Royce in her very short time in HOTD was a more interesting character than anybody in TROP, and I find it really hard to disagree. That's just a perfect example of the contrast in quality.

I think Galadriel and Elendil are great characters. I think Oren is a solid antagonist, especially as they flesh him out a bit more. I think Isildur is going to be a slow build and Elrond has never been a terribly flashy character; he's always been a bit of a behind the scenes guy. Halbrand is coming into his own as well and I'm really interested to see where his arc goes.

Again - no intention of defending the Harfoot storyline - it sucks. And I agree that Arondir to this point is just not intriguing to me at all.

The show isn't perfect. But it doesn't suck. It's actually pretty good, IMO. But it's not castle intrigue and gray areas. It's clearly your simple battle of good vs. evil and for many moral ambiguity is a critical element to prestige television.

LOTR has NEVER done moral ambiguity. It's very traditional storytelling in that regard. If you need that - you're probably not gonna find it here. Oren is the only possible source of it and that's a tough sell for folks who have only know Orc's to be mindless killing machines. We'll see what happens with Halbrand, though...