Chiefs Veach is the best GM in the NFL - Page 35

staylor26 · 07-14-2020, 11:51 AM

I don’t think it’s even debatable at this point

staylor26 · 10-13-2021, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

And that '18 draft speaks to what a catastrophe the Luck thing was for Ballard.

Let's say he goes out there and Luck simply didn't exist. He'd retired after his first injury. Does he take the chance on Josh Allen?

The '18 draft class has become really damn good. Now that Darnold is away from the Jets, he's looking like a quality QB and he's the 4th best quarterback out of that class. There were elite Gs, LBs (a TON of excellent LBs, in fact), WRs, DEs, DTs....just an insanely good draft class.

And Veach air-balled the whole damn thing...

Umm you clearly haven’t looked at rounds 2-3 of that draft because it’s ****ing awful outside of the top 40 or so.

Nnadi was easily one of the best players selected on day 2 and that’s not really a good thing.

DJ's left nut · 10-13-2021, 10:36 AM

Warner, Brown, Bates, Hubbard, Gallup, Chark, Bates, O'Neil, Whitehead, Andrews...

C'mon - that was a good draft.

**The Franchise** · 10-13-2021, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

And that '18 draft speaks to what a catastrophe the Luck thing was for Ballard.

Let's say he goes out there and Luck simply didn't exist. He'd retired after his first injury. Does he take the chance on Josh Allen? Thinking you have a QB only to have him vanish on you does far more damage than never having one at all.

The '18 draft class has become really damn good. Now that Darnold is away from the Jets, he's looking like a quality QB and he's the 4th best quarterback out of that class. There were elite Gs, LBs (a TON of excellent LBs, in fact), WRs, DEs, DTs....just an insanely good draft class.

And Veach air-balled the whole damn thing...

Oh he did for sure. A majority of people don’t think he’s this God of a GM. He’s made mistakes and it’s why we’re at where we are right now.

staylor26 · 10-13-2021, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Warner, Brown, Bates, Hubbard, Gallup, Chark, Bates, O'Neil, Whitehead, Andrews...

C'mon - that was a good draft.

You have Bates listed twice.

Whitehead was a round 4 pick.

Chark has had 1 good season, and has been pretty meh outside of it. Also just had a season ending injury.

The Chiefs weren’t taking a OT or TE on day 2 of that draft.

Warner, Bates, and Hubbard are the guys that you look at and say Veach should’ve drafted one.

KC Hawks · 10-13-2021, 11:07 AM

The positive with Veach is that each of his drafts are better than the previous one. He's definitely whiffed, but at least he's trending in the right direction.

It seems like he can admit his mistakes and will cut bait. Breeland Speaks would probably still be here if Scott Pioli was the GM.

RunKC · 10-13-2021, 11:20 AM

Malik Hooker was Ballard’s first pick and he’s a bust. Rock Ya Sin has 2 INT’s and 12 PD’s in 2.25 seasons. He’s not good.

Nelson was a no brained. A monkey could have made that pick. And yes Darius Leonard is great but what else?

And Carson Wentz is not looking good. $21 million for a guy that seems broken and is always hurt. The worst part is they are going to give the Eagles a 1st when he eclipses 75% playing time, so a 1st and 3rd for that.

At least Frank Clark was good enough to be a main component to winning a title. Ballard is not that good and his philosophy is that of Carl Peterson.

I would much rather take a risk and go after a QB/vital piece with resources than a broken down retread QB.

You’d think retread QB’s would be poison to a Chiefs fan after all these years.

RunKC · 10-13-2021, 11:24 AM

So basically if you think Frank Clark is a worse move than Carson Wentz…then man holy shit you’ve got to look at this for what it is and what the ROI was comparatively.

I will also not fault Veach for Thornhill. We know he’s a good player. That’s on the coaching staff for playing Sorenson over him. Thornhill was a good pick

DJ's left nut · 10-13-2021, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RunKC

Malik Hooker was Ballard’s first pick and he’s a bust. Rock Ya Sin has 2 INT’s and 12 PD’s in 2.25 seasons. He’s not good.

For what it's worth, Hooker was one of the best coverage safeties in the NFL before he blew out his knee (I think it was his knee) and never fully recovered.

You wanna see a worst case scenario for Thornhill? There's your answer.

I don't hold Thornhill against Veach and I don't think it's fair to do the same with Hooker.

Regarding Wentz - he looks okay right now. He's not at his 2017 MVP caliber form (and may never get there again), but he's appeared very similar to the 2019 version of himself that's an average starting QB.

Honestly I see the Wentz move and Clark move as 6 in one hand, half dozen in the other. I'd say Wentz has more upside by virtue of his previous heights and the importance of his position. He also has more downside due to the back issues. Ultimately though, his deal was quite a bit less onerous than Clarks because it really only has 2 years on it (plus a couple 'team option' sort of years thereafter).

The Chiefs needed a DE, they paid dearly for one and paid him at the top of the market for his position. The Colts needed a QB, they paid a steep price to get one and paid him roughly average for a starting QB in the league. Wentz had his back issues, Clark his wrist/elbow issues. Both guys appeared to be entering their prime years at positions of extreme need for the acquiring team.

I'm not really sure how you can draw much of a distinction between the two moves.

tredadda · 10-13-2021, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I mean I won't speak to anyone else's position.

I can go all the way back to my position regarding David DeCastro way back when that was a thing. If a guy like Chris Jones or Aaron Donald is capable of being a difference maker, then drafting a player that can neutralize a guy like that is equally impactful.

Now I will say that if you're taking a less impactful position that high, you'd better by god be right. If you're taking Tyson Jackson at #3, he'd better be a JJ Watt sort of 3-tech. If you're taking a G in the top 10, he'd better be an All-Pro. If he's merely a good player at a secondary position, you've busted that pick.

Chris Ballard got it right - Nelson is a stud.

I was in camp DeCastro and I was routinely ridiculed because you don't take a guard in the first round regardless. That's what I am getting at. Either you do or you don't draft guards/RBs/centers in the first. You can't pick and choose when and call the guy doing it genius. Not saying you in particular, but just in general. This is how we get into the Veach sucks because CEH isn't as good as most hoped for.

-King- · 10-13-2021, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tredadda

I was in camp DeCastro and I was routinely ridiculed because you don't take a guard in the first round regardless. That's what I am getting at. Either you do or you don't draft guards/RBs/centers in the first. You can't pick and choose when and call the guy doing it genius. Not saying you in particular, but just in general. This is how we get into the Veach sucks because CEH isn't as good as most hoped for.

DJ explained this already. If you're going to pick a position like that, they need to be GREAT. If CEH played like Jamaal Charles or Adrian Peterson, no one would care that we spent a first on him. But since he plays like Thomas Jones, it was a terrible pick.

DJ's left nut · 10-13-2021, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -King-

DJ explained this already. If you're going to pick a position like that, they need to be GREAT. If CEH played like Jamaal Charles or Adrian Peterson, no one would care that we spent a first on him. But since he plays like Thomas Jones, it was a terrible pick.

Right.

The issue being marginal value over replacement.

Finding an average guard really isn't that difficult. Finding an average RB isn't. Finding an average QB or LT or WR is.

So if you spend a 1st rounder on a G or HB, to get marginal value over replacement, that guy needs to be damn good. Not so at QB, WR, T. Average versions of those guys are still damn valuable.

So if you're going to take a position that requires higher levels of play to become truly scarce, then that player needs to play at that higher level or you haven't gotten decent value over replacement on your pick.

I don't see what's objectionable about this as it seems fairly self-evident.

DJ's left nut · 10-13-2021, 01:23 PM

That's the same discussion as it relates to Humphrey as well. Reiter was found on waivers and while Reiter wasn't worth a damn as a run blocker, he was a strong pass blocker. On the whole he was a roughly average C.

Now what could make Creed such a good pick is he might just be an All Pro caliber guy.

comochiefsfan · 10-13-2021, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Right.

The issue being marginal value over replacement.

Finding an average guard really isn't that difficult. Finding an average RB isn't. Finding an average QB or LT or WR is.

So if you spend a 1st rounder on a G or HB, to get marginal value over replacement, that guy needs to be damn good. Not so at QB, WR, T. Average versions of those guys are still damn valuable.

So if you're going to take a position that requires higher levels of play to become truly scarce, then that player needs to play at that higher level or you haven't gotten decent value over replacement on your pick.

I don't see what's objectionable about this as it seems fairly self-evident.

I'm really not going to question a draft pick if he turns out to be an All-Pro, no matter what postion he plays and no matter where he was picked.

You need great players to win big in this league. Just get them however, whenever and wherever you can.

DJ's left nut · 10-13-2021, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by comochiefsfan

I'm really not going to question a draft pick if he turns out to be an All-Pro, no matter what postion he plays and no matter where he was picked.

You need great players to win big in this league. Just get them however, whenever and wherever you can.

Nor do I - that's precisely my point.

kccrow · 10-13-2021, 04:54 PM

"Andy Reid told Philadelphia, I want two offensive tackles, a quarterback, two pass rushers, two corners, and I'll figure the rest out."

Veach needs to get to work on defense.

As for the coaches, I can't say I'm happy with the positional coaching with the DL and LBs. Never any development there. Alot of missed assignments and generally being lost. There's been solid development at CB, that's about it. It is past time to cut some bait with guys like Daly and House (I never did particularly like his addition).

07-14-2020, 11:51 AM
staylor26 In Search of a Life Join Date: Oct 2007 Casino cash: $-160960	Veach is the best GM in the NFL I don’t think it’s even debatable at this point
Posts: 50,957	3 0

10-13-2021, 10:36 AM	#512
DJ's left nut Sauntering Vaguely Downwards Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Columbia, Mo Casino cash: $1089099	Warner, Brown, Bates, Hubbard, Gallup, Chark, Bates, O'Neil, Whitehead, Andrews... C'mon - that was a good draft. __________________ "If there's a god, he's laughing at us.....and our football team..." "When you look at something through rose colored glasses, all the red flags just look like flags."
Posts: 63,321	1 0

10-13-2021, 11:07 AM	#515
KC Hawks Veteran Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: The West Side Casino cash: $-445690	The positive with Veach is that each of his drafts are better than the previous one. He's definitely whiffed, but at least he's trending in the right direction. It seems like he can admit his mistakes and will cut bait. Breeland Speaks would probably still be here if Scott Pioli was the GM.
Posts: 3,032

10-13-2021, 11:20 AM	#516
RunKC Andy Reid Supporter Join Date: Apr 2012 Casino cash: $319611	Malik Hooker was Ballard’s first pick and he’s a bust. Rock Ya Sin has 2 INT’s and 12 PD’s in 2.25 seasons. He’s not good. Nelson was a no brained. A monkey could have made that pick. And yes Darius Leonard is great but what else? And Carson Wentz is not looking good. $21 million for a guy that seems broken and is always hurt. The worst part is they are going to give the Eagles a 1st when he eclipses 75% playing time, so a 1st and 3rd for that. At least Frank Clark was good enough to be a main component to winning a title. Ballard is not that good and his philosophy is that of Carl Peterson. I would much rather take a risk and go after a QB/vital piece with resources than a broken down retread QB. You’d think retread QB’s would be poison to a Chiefs fan after all these years. __________________ Mike Greenberg@Espngreeny I can’t fathom what it must be like to be a fan of the #Chiefs. Adopt a Chief: Jared Wiley
Posts: 48,521

10-13-2021, 11:24 AM	#517
RunKC Andy Reid Supporter Join Date: Apr 2012 Casino cash: $319611	So basically if you think Frank Clark is a worse move than Carson Wentz…then man holy shit you’ve got to look at this for what it is and what the ROI was comparatively. I will also not fault Veach for Thornhill. We know he’s a good player. That’s on the coaching staff for playing Sorenson over him. Thornhill was a good pick __________________ Mike Greenberg@Espngreeny I can’t fathom what it must be like to be a fan of the #Chiefs. Adopt a Chief: Jared Wiley
Posts: 48,521

10-13-2021, 01:23 PM	#522
DJ's left nut Sauntering Vaguely Downwards Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Columbia, Mo Casino cash: $1089099	That's the same discussion as it relates to Humphrey as well. Reiter was found on waivers and while Reiter wasn't worth a damn as a run blocker, he was a strong pass blocker. On the whole he was a roughly average C. Now what could make Creed such a good pick is he might just be an All Pro caliber guy. __________________ "If there's a god, he's laughing at us.....and our football team..." "When you look at something through rose colored glasses, all the red flags just look like flags."
Posts: 63,321	1 0

10-13-2021, 04:54 PM	#525
kccrow MVP Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Michigan Casino cash: $246403	"Andy Reid told Philadelphia, I want two offensive tackles, a quarterback, two pass rushers, two corners, and I'll figure the rest out." Veach needs to get to work on defense. As for the coaches, I can't say I'm happy with the positional coaching with the DL and LBs. Never any development there. Alot of missed assignments and generally being lost. There's been solid development at CB, that's about it. It is past time to cut some bait with guys like Daly and House (I never did particularly like his addition).
Posts: 12,768