***Official 2024 STL Cardinals Thread ***

[BigRedChief]

I'll update the rosters and opening day lineup when its officially released.

2024 Opening Day roster.

Spoiler!

Our 2024 Opening Day roster is set!#ForTheLou pic.twitter.com/YdcaRqRVtz

— St. Louis Cardinals (@Cardinals) March 27, 2024

For the new Cardinal fans that joined the Planet since last year, here are some of the historical threads going back to 2006.

Spoiler!

2023 thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=348136
2022 thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/show...8#post16877588
2021 Thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=337124
2020 Thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=329273
2019 Thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=320239
2018 Thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=312812
2012 Thread
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=254619
etc.
All the way back to 2006 WS
https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=312812
\

[VAChief]

Originally Posted by oldandslow

3-3 out west so far and this is without Gray having a start. Far better than I expected to be honest.

If Wynn, Walker, and Donavan continue to progress, this team will be all right.

"All right" like 83-79 is probably an optimistic ceiling. No way that geriatric starting corps last the whole year.

Their previous top starting propects McGreevy and Graceffo are likely busts. Hence has yet to throw a 100 innings. The cupboard is pretty bare down on the farms. It could get real ugly in the next few years.

The best we can hope for is Goldy and Arenado show they still have something at the trade deadline and somehow Mo doesn't continue to undervalue his talent in trades.

All that said, Go Cards!

[raybec 4]

Originally Posted by VAChief

"All right" like 83-79 is probably an optimistic ceiling. No way that geriatric starting corps last the whole year.

Their previous top starting propects McGreevy and Graceffo are likely busts. Hence has yet to throw a 100 innings. The cupboard is pretty bare down on the farms. It could get real ugly in the next few years.

The best we can hope for is Goldy and Arenado show they still have something at the trade deadline and somehow Mo doesn't continue to undervalue his talent in trades.

All that said, Go Cards!

I'm not ready to call those guys busts yet but other than that you're prett close.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Originally Posted by oldandslow

3-3 out west so far and this is without Gray having a start. Far better than I expected to be honest.

If Wynn, Walker, and Donavan continue to progress, this team will be all right.

Stop...just...stop

[George Liquor]

Be nice if our 25 mil a year pitcher wasn't hurt so we could get this scrub out of the rotation. But everything Mo does is a disaster.

[BigRedChief]

Hey DJ, Hamas and anyone else that breakdown swings, was the hell has happened to Arenado?

Is it just aging?

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by BigRedChief

Hey DJ, Hamas and anyone else that breakdown swings, was the hell has happened to Arenado?

Is it just aging?

Just doesn't look as athletic anymore. Not defensively, not on the bases. He just looks a lot older. And he's always been a 'see ball, club ball' sort of hitter who wasn't exactly patient or selective in what he swung at. The traditional 'old man skills' weren't really his strength.

But he had good plate coverage and a willingness to attack anything hittable and drive it. Made him an excellent RBI guy.

Now he just looks older. And to compensate I think he's gotten MORE aggressive because, unlike when he was younger, he's not going to punish that first hittable pitch he sees. He may mis-hit it a bit so just in case, he's gonna expand his zone and try to attack a pitch he may not have in the past. And finally the frustrations of losing have him pressing and selling out for power.

I don't think it's anything mechanical. I think he's gotten older, he's gotten frustrated by poor performance and as a consequence he's just gotten awfully damn aggressive in his approach.

But if you want a far shorter answer - watch him play defense. He's not the best defensive 3b in baseball anymore. Or the NL. Or the even the NL Central. You could convince me that he's not one of the top THREE defensive 3b in the NL right now. And that's not approach. That's just age. His athleticism has just wanted.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

The Dodgers are kicking the can down the road to avoid huge CBT bills. It's no different from how the Chiefs keep restructuring Mahomes, and actually smarter based on California tax law for them to offer it to Ohtani. Whether it makes him more or less money in the long run may be debatable, but it allows them to go out and supplement an elite core.

The Cardinals could do this if they wanted. They did it with Matt Holliday. They just don't care. Everyone in the org got fat and complacent after 2013, and bought into their own hype, and ownership no longer cared about doing anything more than the bare minimum. They didn't appreciate that Luhnow built the team that was the envy of the NL from 2011-2015. That's why the Cubs lapped them, the Dodgers, Phillies and Braves buried them, and why they won't win over 85 games for the foreseeable future.

From an organizational standpoint, they've been passed by the Reds and Pirates. Both teams are smarter and more creative.

The sole distinction between the franchises is the fanbase. Cardinals fans still show up so Mozeliak can spend more money (and typically does it very poorly).

THAT'S the bigger problem. It's that they're stale. I read an article a month or so back about revolutions in coaching and how more teams are using outside voices like Driveline to supplement their coaching - the Cardinals weren't mentioned. I've seen articles regarding foreign academies - the Cardinals shut down their Dominican academy during COVID and never re-started it.

They don't DO anything. There's nothing this organization does to set it apart from anyone else in baseball. They have no identity anymore because a suit runs the show. They don't have any creativity because Mozeliak will stomp it out. They won't even write checks like the Yankees, Dodgers and Phillies.

Look at this organization and ask yourself why SHOULD they win anything? They aren't good at anything. They aren't ahead of the curve anywhere.

And they don't seem to give a ****. They seem wholly content to tread water. It's just bizarre.

[VAChief]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Just doesn't look as athletic anymore. Not defensively, not on the bases. He just looks a lot older. And he's always been a 'see ball, club ball' sort of hitter who wasn't exactly patient or selective in what he swung at. The traditional 'old man skills' weren't really his strength.

But he had good plate coverage and a willingness to attack anything hittable and drive it. Made him an excellent RBI guy.

Now he just looks older. And to compensate I think he's gotten MORE aggressive because, unlike when he was younger, he's not going to punish that first hittable pitch he sees. He may mis-hit it a bit so just in case, he's gonna expand his zone and try to attack a pitch he may not have in the past. And finally the frustrations of losing have him pressing and selling out for power.

I don't think it's anything mechanical. I think he's gotten older, he's gotten frustrated by poor performance and as a consequence he's just gotten awfully damn aggressive in his approach.

But if you want a far shorter answer - watch him play defense. He's not the best defensive 3b in baseball anymore. Or the NL. Or the even the NL Central. You could convince me that he's not one of the top THREE defensive 3b in the NL right now. And that's not approach. That's just age. His athleticism has just wanted.

Agreed, he has never had what you would call a "sweet swing." He has just had incredible hand/eye coordination that was partly innate and partly honed even further by the defensive work he put in everyday.

Now, I think he has started to age (not uncommon for eyesight to start to change in your early thirties) and it's such a fine edge in baseball that you see him struggle. I really thought they should have tried to move him at the deadline last year. Some contender would have overpaid on his recent history.

He could still recover, but the signs of decline are starting to show.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I don't think it's anything mechanical. I think he's gotten older, he's gotten frustrated by poor performance and as a consequence he's just gotten awfully damn aggressive in his approach.
And that's not approach. That's just age. His athleticism has just wanted.

Thanks man. That explains a lot.

Originally Posted by VAChief

He could still recover, but the signs of decline are starting to show.

Thats what it looked like to me. Just age. A little late getting to balls he normally would. He seems to be just a little late on the swings. Aging comes for us all. Looks like its coming for him now, as far as his athletic career.

[Ocotillo]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

J You could convince me that he's not one of the top THREE defensive 3b in the NL right now.

Matt Chapman is the obvious number two.

Manny Machado? Ryan McMahon? Austin Riley?

I just looked!

*The 2023 Fielding Bible voting had Arenado at seventh overall among MLB third basemen behind KeBryan Hayes (1), McMahon (2), Chapman (3), Riley (4) and Machado (5).

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Ocotillo

Matt Chapman is the obvious number two.

Manny Machado? Ryan McMahon? Austin Riley?

I just looked!

*The 2023 Fielding Bible voting had Arenado at seventh overall among MLB third basemen behind KeBryan Hayes (1), McMahon (2), Chapman (3), Riley (4) and Machado (5).

McMahon.

Hayes is #1 with a bullet. Chapman as a probable 2, McMahon at 3 and maybe Arenado at 4 (I still think Riley is a butcher). Machado should be great but doesn't seem to give a shit about baseball.

I think 7th overall is pretty harsh but even with a bounce back, I struggle to get him past Hayes or McMahon and Chapman has a history of elite defense in his own right.

He's just not the guy he was. Happens to everyone.

[Marcellus]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

McMahon.

Hayes is #1 with a bullet. Chapman as a probable 2, McMahon at 3 and maybe Arenado at 4 (I still think Riley is a butcher). Machado should be great but doesn't seem to give a shit about baseball.

I think 7th overall is pretty harsh but even with a bounce back, I struggle to get him past Hayes or McMahon and Chapman has a history of elite defense in his own right.

He's just not the guy he was. Happens to everyone.

Maybe Arenado opted to stay in STL because he knew he could suck and people would still wash his balls unlike if he went to a new team.

Lowered expectations make for an easy life.

[raybec 4]

Originally Posted by Marcellus

Maybe Arenado opted to stay in STL because he knew he could suck and people would still wash his balls unlike if he went to a new team.

Lowered expectations make for an easy life.

[George Liquor]

So far the openening day festivities on the pregame show are nothing but nostalgia because that's all this franchise has to offer.

[BigRedChief]

Originally Posted by Marcellus

Maybe Arenado opted to stay in STL because he knew he could suck and people would still wash his balls unlike if he went to a new team.

Lowered expectations make for an easy life.

Highly likely. Arenado said he had reassurances from Mo that they would bring in more talent. He said that after not voiding each year.

So if Mo lied to you, why would you trust him to tell you the truth the second time?

Only reason is as was mentioned above, he knew he was getting old and would effect his game. He knew he could decline here and people would still love him, New place would want the production of his old self.