The Bills take the AFC this seasom

[JustDíqLix]

Are you ready for some football!?

I know I am!

With that, I am here to make a proclamation!

The mighty Bills from Buffalo will take the AFC this year.

For two decades I watched people say the Patriots window was closed, that their time was dwindling, that it was all over… seemingly every time those predictions happened, the Patriots went and won another Super Bowl.

A lot of doom talk simply because we lost to the Bengals in the playoffs. Let us not forget that the Bills watched their brother DIE on the field just a few weeks prior. Their heart was simply not in it. If it had been, the Bills would have captured the AFC last year.

The Bills have won 2 of their last 3 in Arrowhead and they’re ready to make it 3 of the last 4.

Let’s go mighty Buffalo Bills! 🦬 🦬 🦬

[Rainbarrel]

Pfft If the defense could win the AFCCG for Allen. He would fumble the Lamar Hunt Trophy off the stage. On to a third stringer's head & they would forfeit the Super Bowl. To have candle light service outside the injured players hotel room

[kcgreene]

Originally Posted by Vladimir_Kyrilytch

Give me a break. Mahomes is "close to" Brady? Brady isn't fit to wash Mahomes' jock strap. Brady was nothing but hype and fraud and cheating. He wasn't even good. He was okay.

Ask yourself this - if Adam Vinateiri misses a few kicks, if that garbage tuck rule call isn't made, and if the Patriots didn't cheat so rampantly, would Brady have ever won a Super Bowl? You saw the absolutely unbelievably rigged reffing in the Chiefs vs. Bucs Super Bowl. Intercepting Brady and having flags come out afterwards to cancel out the interception. Refs with kids named after Brady. Passes 114 rows up out the back of the end zone for PI first downs. The only way Brady could even move the ball was from flags. That was an abomination. The day the music died.

I'm tired of people acting like Brady is anywhere NEAR Mahomes level. He wasn't. Never was.

I'm not arguing with your sentiment, but Brady is recognized as the GOAT because of 7 rings (even if rosters were absurdly loaded and he never won with worse than a Top 10 D in Pts per Drive), but I also recognize that Mahomes resume' with 3 rings is still lighter than Brady's resume' with 7. (Though I don't think it will be for long, I think once Mahomes reached 4 with this current stretch of utter dominance that the argument shifts)

Hell, Peyton was more talented than Brady, but Brady is recognized as greater due to his success, (partially because of all those years in Indy where Peyton had much lesser Defenses)

At the end of the day, a substantial majority of people won't care about the flags, the tuck rule, or anything. Hell, Brady made a joke in a commercial about the tuck rule calling it actually a fumble a year or two ago, and people laughed it off.

The barometer of success is defined by two things to the public. The eye test, and the resume'. The flags and other nuances will be lost to time; fairly or unfairly.

Regardless, this won't matter because Mahomes will be almost universally recognized as the GOAT by the end of his career.

[RealSNR]

Originally Posted by mr. tegu

Personally I’m never actually criticizing Allen much. I’m the one who’s been saying for two years he is far better than Burrow and is the second best QB in the league. It’s the Bills fans though who think because he’s second best that it automatically means he’s is on the same tier as Mahomes and they twist themselves into knots trying to show it that I find a tad ridiculous.

It's unfortunate, but I feel no guilt whatsoever lobbing criticism at Allen. His idiot dickbag fans made it this way.

[tredadda]

Originally Posted by kcgreene

I'm not arguing with your sentiment, but Brady is recognized as the GOAT because of 7 rings (even if rosters were absurdly loaded and he never won with worse than a Top 10 D in Pts per Drive), but I also recognize that Mahomes resume' with 3 rings is still lighter than Brady's resume' with 7. (Though I don't think it will be for long, I think once Mahomes reached 4 with this current stretch of utter dominance that the argument shifts)

Hell, Peyton was more talented than Brady, but Brady is recognized as greater due to his success, (partially because of all those years in Indy where Peyton had much lesser Defenses)

At the end of the day, a substantial majority of people won't care about the flags, the tuck rule, or anything. Hell, Brady made a joke in a commercial about the tuck rule calling it actually a fumble a year or two ago, and people laughed it off.

The barometer of success is defined by two things to the public. The eye test, and the resume'. The flags and other nuances will be lost to time; fairly or unfairly.

Regardless, this won't matter because Mahomes will be almost universally recognized as the GOAT by the end of his career.

Manning, for as good as he was in the regular season just wasn’t the same guy in the postseason. Had he not been carried to his second SB he falls into the same category as Favre/Rodgers (currently). Lots of regular season success and MVPs, but very little postseason hardware to show for it.

[Pasta Little Brioni]

Originally Posted by ToxSocks

If Mahomes wasn't in the league, Allen and maybe even Jackson would have SB rings already.

Real shit.

So when we bag on these guys, it's kinda unfair. It's kinda bullshit.

These are great talents. They just happened to exist in the Mahomes era. Kinda ****ed for them, but oh well.

It's not unfair. They've been choking piece of shits when it counts and i will continue to laugh at them all. They are also VERY likely to get hurt and their styles of play don't translate to long careers. Those windows are just about closed in Buffalo and Baltimore. They aren't fit to be listed in the same breath as Pat and I won't allow you to do that.

[RedinTexas]

Josh Allen is really good and he has improved a lot since he came into the league. Personally, I'm thankful for Josh Allen because he's keeping Patrick on his toes. Patrick knows that if he doesn't work really hard to maintain his spot at the top of the pyramid, Allen will be there to move up. Josh Allen is exactly the kind of guy that we need out there to push Patrick and the Bills are exactly the kind of team we need out there to push the Chiefs.

Here's to the Bills. We wouldn't be as good as we are if it weren't for them pushing us so hard.

[RaidersOftheCellar]

Originally Posted by kcgreene

I'm not arguing with your sentiment, but Brady is recognized as the GOAT because of 7 rings (even if rosters were absurdly loaded and he never won with worse than a Top 10 D in Pts per Drive)

Which rosters do you think were absurdly loaded? I'm genuinely curious. Seems like most people consider the Moss teams that failed to win a SB the only loaded Patriots rosters. I didn't follow them closely enough to know.

Edit: Forgot to mention the Tampa Bay team. They were loaded.

[kcgreene]

Originally Posted by RaidersOftheCellar

Which rosters do you think were absurdly loaded? I'm genuinely curious. Seems like most people consider the Moss teams that failed to win a SB the only loaded Patriots rosters. I didn't follow them closely enough to know.

I'm more referring to the defenses being consistently top of the league along with great OLines. The Patriots never had traditionally elite WRs outside of Moss, but they found ways to exploit TE matchups (Not to mention Gronk) and found how to use guys amazingly in the slot, and Brady had guys that may not have been All Pros, but they vibed (Edelman).

[RaidersOftheCellar]

Originally Posted by kcgreene

I'm more referring to the defenses being consistently top of the league along with great OLines. The Patriots never had traditionally elite WRs outside of Moss, but they found ways to exploit TE matchups (Not to mention Gronk) and found how to use guys amazingly in the slot, and Brady had guys that may not have been All Pros, but they vibed (Edelman).

Brady was lucky as hell with defense and OL. Not sure he ever had a line that wasn't borderline elite.

[kcgreene]

Originally Posted by RaidersOftheCellar

Brady was lucky as hell with defense and OL. Not sure he ever had a line that wasn't borderline elite.

I'll have to dig through my prior posts... I have one of some research that was a breakdown of every defense Brady ever had in Point Allowed per Drive... I'll have to see if I can find it again and post it here, seems fitting with how the convo has turned.

[Rainbarrel]

If Flacco can win one during Brady's reign. Allen has a chance away from Buffalo & at the very least free from McStupidface. The Ravens' history is not the Bill's

[kcgreene]

Originally Posted by RaidersOftheCellar

Brady was lucky as hell with defense and OL. Not sure he ever had a line that wasn't borderline elite.

Originally Posted by kcgreene

I'll have to dig through my prior posts... I have one of some research that was a breakdown of every defense Brady ever had in Point Allowed per Drive... I'll have to see if I can find it again and post it here, seems fitting with how the convo has turned.

Found it. Also, I found a more reliable source of information for the statistics regarding this, so I've updated this appropriately (a few of the numbers I previously posted were wrong, and I have the correct information now) (Statmuse is kinda shitty the more I use it, so basically I have switched strictly to Pro Football Reference, regardless of how difficult it can be to find some items on there), but the argument still remains strong and the point remains valid. Reposting Below with a Spoiler tag to not clog up the thread

Spoiler!

Did a little bit of stat research in regards to quarterbacks and the defensive assistance they receive, and this doesn't necessarily warrant a new thread, so putting it here is better IMO.

Interesting Stat Dump regarding Defensive Support that Quarterbacks Receive found in the Spoiler Tag Below (And really makes one appreciate Mahomes even more):

In regards to Super Bowl Wins, in every year that Brady won it all, he had a Top 8 Defense in Points per Drive Allowed.

Brady's whole career by year in Spoiler with Defensive Pts Allowed per Drive rank and results.:

Spoiler!

2001: 6th Best defense, Super Bowl Win v STL
2002: 14th Best Defense, Missed Playoffs
2003: 1st Best Defense, Super Bowl Win v CAR
2004: 4th Best Defense, Super Bowl Win v PHI
2005: 22nd Best Defense, Divisional Round Loss to DEN
2006: 3rd Best Defense, AFCCG Loss to INDY
2007: 5th Best Defense, Super Bowl Loss to NYG, Won MVP, 1st Team AP
2008: Brady was hurt Week 1, Matt Cassel led New England to an 11-5 Record, but did not make the playoffs, 11th Best Defense
2009: 6th Best Defense, Wild Card Loss to BAL, Comeback Player of the Year
2010: 17th Best Defense, Divisional Loss to NYJ, Won MVP, 1st Team AP
2011: 21st Best Defense, Super Bowl Loss to NYG
2012: 12th Best Defense, AFCCG Loss to BAL
2013: 10th Best Defense, AFCCG Loss to DEN
2014: 8th Best Defense, Super Bowl Win v SEA
2015: 9th Best Defense, AFCCG Loss to DEN
2016: 2nd Best Defense, Super Bowl Win v ATL
2017: 6th Best Defense, Super Bowl Loss to PHI, Won MVP, 1st Team AP
2018: 7th Best Defense, Super Bowl Win v LAR
2019: 1st Best Defense, Wild Card Loss to TEN

Then to Tampa Bay Brady, who suddenly gains much more in terms of offensive skill players as well.

2020: 6th Best Defense, Super Bowl Win v KC
2021: 6th Best Defense, Divisional Loss to LAR
2022: 12th Best Defense, Wild Card Loss to DAL

In his entire career he only had 2 seasons with a defense ranked 18th or lower in this metric:

(2005 - 22nd, 2011 - 21st)

He had 4 more seasons with a defensive support worse than 10th:

(2002 - 14th, 2010 - 17th, 2012 - 12th, 2022 - 12th)

This means that in 15 of his 21 seasons that Tom Brady played (Spent one season on the IR) He had the benefit of a Top 10 Defense in terms of preventing points each time the opposing offense was on the field. (If you average out every year, the average rank of his defenses is 8.9, If you average out those 15 seasons of a top 10 Defense, the average rank is 5.33)



Since 2001, the following QBs have won Super Bowls having a defense outside the Top 10 in Points per Drive Allowed:

Peyton Manning (2006-31st)
Eli Manning (2007- 15th, 2011 - 25th / Obviously both of the Defenses were known to flip the switch once the playoffs hit)
Drew Brees (2009 -14th)
Patrick Mahomes (2019 - 15th, 2022 - 21st)

Mahomes entire career so far in this metric of defensive assistance:

2018- 28th (Lost to NE in AFCCG - Overtime)
2019 - 15th (Super Bowl Win v SF 1st Time)
2020 - 13th (Super Bowl Loss to TB, utterly destroyed OLine)
2021 - 21st - Tied (Lost to CIN in AFCCG - Overtime)
2022 - 20th - Tied (Super Bowl Win v PHI)
2023 - 3rd (Super Bowl Win v SF 2nd Time)
Average: 16th (16.16 to be exact)
Avg of Super Bowl Winning Seasons: 13th (12.667 to be exact)

Comparing Mahomes defensive support to Josh Allen's and Lamar Jackson's defensive support (playoff opponents this year with sizable data):

Josh Allen:
2018 - 10th
2019 - 2nd
2020 - 16th
2021 - 1st
2022 - 5th
2023 - 6th (AVG: 6.7)

Lamar Jackson:
2018 - 2nd
2019 - 5th
2020 - 4th
2021 - 11th
2022 - 9th
2023 - 1st (AVG: 5.3)

Conclusion: Mahomes is more successful than his competitors and legacy options like Brady, even with significantly less defensive support. (We all knew this, but it's always nice to have numbers to quantify it.)

[Rausch]

Originally Posted by CasselGotPeedOn

Anyone have their autism to English dictionary handy?

0dd T0dd was the bouncer punching training camp legend that graced our team as a b/u for a good 4 or 5 years. Decent arm, looked great in the preseason, kept on the bench by Trent Green.

[Bearcat]

It is mildly amusing how we seamlessly transition from laughing at Bills fans for saying Mahomes isn't as athletic and how he's had a lot of help from coaching, Kelce, Tyreek, a top defense last season; while ignoring his huge football brain and leadership and so forth..., to bashing Brady because he benefited from defense, coaching, etc; and didn't do things Mahomes could but was very smart, dedicated, etc.

[kcgreene]

Originally Posted by Bearcat

It is mildly amusing how we seamlessly transition from laughing at Bills fans for saying Mahomes isn't as athletic and how he's had a lot of help from coaching, Kelce, Tyreek, a top defense last season; while ignoring his huge football brain and leadership and so forth..., to bashing Brady because he benefited from defense, coaching, etc; and didn't do things Mahomes could but was very smart, dedicated, etc.

Oh, I'm not bashing Brady. Maybe I should clarify my take. I think that Brady is currently the GOAT, however, I think that Mahomes has achieved more with less, and data and eyetest quantify such in my opinion.

Because Mahomes has done more with less (for the time period in which he's had the opportunity to do such) I don't think he has to match Brady in terms of rings to be considered the GOAT. I think if he gets a 4th ring while maintaining his statistical output consistently, the real convo begins.

This was more compiled because too many people are ring counters and that's all (which none of those people say Bill Russell is the best NBA player ever). It's also why I gave Manning and Brees credit for winning with worse Defenses. Because it does mean something. It doesn't mean everything, but it does mean something.

Originally I wrote it out to focus on Allen and Lamar's defenses in contrast to Mahomes, I added Brady when it became apparent that Mahomes is no longer competing against his contemporaries, he's competing against legends of the game.

EDIT: I should clarify. I think Brady is the GOAT QB, I personally am more inclined to see Jerry Rice as the GOAT of football in general when you compare him to the other legends and top players ever of his position.

I think Mahomes will end his career as the GOAT Though, so this post will be outdated soon enough.

I also think there is a difference between the "Greatest of All Time" and "The Best of All Time". Greatness implies accomplishment. Best implies talent and ability (In my opinion)