***Official Soccer Thread***

[POND_OF_RED]

Creating a new thread for soccer discussion since the Euro’s are done.

Most leagues are in preseason and Sporting KC are currently in a battle for the best record in the league to win the shield. We just sent Busio who’s a young Sporting youth academy player and possible future American star to Venezia to compete in the top division in Italy for a 6.5 million dollar transfer fee with up to $11 million with incentives and a 20% future sell-on rate if they sell him to another team. Not to mention another past youth academy player from Lee’s Summit and another possible World Cup starter Erik Palmer-Brown looks to be joining him at Venezia soon as well. If you’re looking for an Italian team to start rooting for with your new Paramount+ subscription they would be a good candidate with some local flavor.

The U.S has built a little power shift in the CONCACAF region with their wins over Mexico lately in Nations and Gold Cup finals and look to be in really good shape heading into the World Cup qualifiers next month.

Messi looks to be on the move as well. Let’s hope it’s not a worthless one to PSG for everyone’s sake.

Ok, CP feel free to remind me how gay soccer is now. Don’t care. Sporting is kicking ass and so is the USA. It’s a good time to be following along. Discuss…

Spoiler!

[ToxSocks]

BTW, i've been watching the WNBA all month.

/ducks for cover

**** you guys, it's the dog days of sports and I'm a sports junky.

[DJJasonp]

Originally Posted by tredadda

While I appreciate your stance, at least in America sponsors pay for ads where they will get the most eyeballs. Women do not watch women's soccer and men by and large do not care outside of big events like the World Cup. Even then the revenue generated by the men's World Cup dwarfs the women's one. FIFA can't invest more money in tournament pay than they bring in. Perhaps they can bump it higher, but no way the women come close to what the men make without robbing Peter to pay Paul.

If paragraph two is accurate then that says something and it's fair to think the men's team should reimburse the women's one for that.

Good luck on growing women's soccer outside of the national team. We can call it what we want or excuse it how we want, but the fact is no one cares about professional women's sports leagues in America. Men by and large do not want to watch women compete unless they are scantily dressed. Women do not follow women's sports. If they were to care even a little then the whole narrative would change, but as it stands, more women watch men's sports than their own.

bingo.

[KCUnited]

Originally Posted by Detoxing

BTW, i've been watching the WNBA all month.

/ducks for cover

**** you guys, it's the dog days of sports and I'm a sports junky.

I'm teaching my wife to play golf because **** having my own hobby, right?

Anyway, we're watching a lot more LPGA now which isn't such a bad thing.

*Wasn't sure if I should post this here or in the Asians thread

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by tredadda

But it doesn't though. How long has the WNBA been around? Has their "success" fed into the popularity of the NBA at all? 20+ years and they still need the NBA to subsidize them. That should say a lot right there. Growing women's sports is not as easy as you make it.

Also when you say equal pay, what do you support? Equal salary? Or equal % of revenue? In other words if the men get 15% of the revenue they generate, do the women also get 15% of the revenue they generate?

The wnba is a shit product. I don't think you can make the same comparison. They haven't made money on their own. Uswnt has and a lot of it. Very big difference. There is nobody in the wnba even a fraction as popular as Alex morgan. Maybe Caitlin Clark is up and coming, but I find it really hard to believe that doesn't fizzle a lot once she goes pro. Maybe it's just me but I also don't see a ton of crossover. I think girls and women would rather watch better mens pros play basketball. Lots of women really love womens soccer . With the growth of women's soccer you've also seen an explosion of young girls playing soccer. That absolutely grows the US fan base that, let's be honest, views men's soccer as a side sport whereas for women it is THE sport. The wnba has tried to argue that but women's soccer's impact is exponentially bigger.

The wnba has failed despite nba owners obligated to run it at a loss. Women's soccer is the exact opposite. Arguably their earnings were funneled into growing men's MLS and development programs with little going into their own pro league. I get why but the resentment is understandable. Point being, the wnba has tried to make money but can't. Women's soccer is very popular despite lack of attention or investment.

For the record I dont think there needs to be equal pay. I also don't think any of it matters. This is a side bonus for men making a bazillion dollars in the pros. It is for now the main source of income for women. That's why the men didn't throw a fit.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by tredadda

While I appreciate your stance, at least in America sponsors pay for ads where they will get the most eyeballs. Women do not watch women's soccer and men by and large do not care outside of big events like the World Cup. Even then the revenue generated by the men's World Cup dwarfs the women's one. FIFA can't invest more money in tournament pay than they bring in. Perhaps they can bump it higher, but no way the women come close to what the men make without robbing Peter to pay Paul.

If paragraph two is accurate then that says something and it's fair to think the men's team should reimburse the women's one for that.

Good luck on growing women's soccer outside of the national team. We can call it what we want or excuse it how we want, but the fact is no one cares about professional women's sports leagues in America. Men by and large do not want to watch women compete unless they are scantily dressed. Women do not follow women's sports. If they were to care even a little then the whole narrative would change, but as it stands, more women watch men's sports than their own.

Women and especially girls absolutely watch women's soccer. Nike sells a shitload of women's jerseys. It is a money maker. Not only are world cup ratings outstanding for the US, they're pulling in good attendance for meaningless exhibition games. They won't capture as many men but they don't care nor do they need to.

And it's not just about pure ad revenue. Did you know the sports bra market is $43b and has a 12% cagr (growth rate). It's expected to double in a few years. It's doing to women's apparel what tiger woods did to golf. It created a whole new category. Girls who weren't playing any sports are now buying cleats and jerseys and sports bras and all kinds of soccer shit. More importantly, it's great for advertisers. It's less eyeballs but they're extremely targeted. Women's brands can specifically target women and don't have to compete with other sports for eyeballs. Ive never watched a womens pro game but can assure you soccer mom's of soccer girls have.

A lot of what you're saying is where MLS was decades ago. Everyone said MLS would never catch on in the US. It's amateur soccer versus European leagues. It took years of shedding shit markets, building new stadiums, expansion,changing ownership, investment... Buying up big salaries even when the attendance wasn't there. Luxuries Nwsl was never afforded. but we're seeing it start to materialize. West coast teams are pulling 15-20k. Kc is building a new stadium because they're filling their current one. Can't really judge the product when they haven't put the love into it. But the growth potential is absolutely there

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by Detoxing

This.

You want men to start spending money on your sport? Then maybe get out of politics that suggest men = the bad guy.

No? Ok. That's fine. Then let women support your sport.

Oh, what's that? Women in general couldn't give a damn about sitting there for 3 hrs watching sports, let alone PAY for it?

Well that's quite the conundrum you've found yourself in then, isn't it?

But I don't get where that's coming from. Women do watch and pay for uswnt. Where is this coming from that they don't?

[HonestChieffan]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

But I don't get where that's coming from. Women do watch and pay for uswnt. Where is this coming from that they don't?

Well, not many. and not enough.

Its boring. And women with real money to spend on things are not watching dykes play badly

[tredadda]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

The wnba is a shit product. I don't think you can make the same comparison. They haven't made money on their own. Uswnt has and a lot of it. Very big difference. There is nobody in the wnba even a fraction as popular as Alex morgan. Maybe Caitlin Clark is up and coming, but I find it really hard to believe that doesn't fizzle a lot once she goes pro. Maybe it's just me but I also don't see a ton of crossover. I think girls and women would rather watch better mens pros play basketball. Lots of women really love womens soccer . With the growth of women's soccer you've also seen an explosion of young girls playing soccer. That absolutely grows the US fan base that, let's be honest, views men's soccer as a side sport whereas for women it is THE sport. The wnba has tried to argue that but women's soccer's impact is exponentially bigger.

The wnba has failed despite nba owners obligated to run it at a loss. Women's soccer is the exact opposite. Arguably their earnings were funneled into growing men's MLS and development programs with little going into their own pro league. I get why but the resentment is understandable. Point being, the wnba has tried to make money but can't. Women's soccer is very popular despite lack of attention or investment.

For the record I dont think there needs to be equal pay. I also don't think any of it matters. This is a side bonus for men making a bazillion dollars in the pros. It is for now the main source of income for women. That's why the men didn't throw a fit.

Comparing the USWNT and the WNBA is not a good comparison and I can agree with you on that. But I also think that a lot of the USWNT's popularity is based on national pride and them being (up until this WWC) the best in the world. People rally behind and support it, to which we both agree. Once they stop and go to their pro leagues in the US, people forget about them. The same people watching the USWNT rarely watch the professional leagues as attendance numbers reflect.

Again, this could all change by people actually putting their money into it and actually support it. It's not some devious plot to hold down women's athletics. The money is not invested because there is viewed as no positive ROI for it. It's much easier to rally around a team representing a nation than local professional teams. Heck people who don't give two whits about soccer still watch when the USMNT plays in the WC.

If money was funneled into the MLS, there was a precedent for it before and incentive to grow it. The fact that the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, PGA, and men's collegiate sports revolving around those pro sports have been a success while zero women's sports can say that (although the women's NCAA tourney this year seemed to do well). There is zero precedence to think funneling money into women's pro leagues will grow it and make it a money winner........zero.

Your argument that "Women's soccer is very popular despite lack of attention" makes no sense. If no one is paying attention then it must not be as popular as you claim. To think the men's team just agreed to this equal pay arrangement without throwing fits shows a complete lack of awareness. Opposing it would have been suicide. And perhaps the men make more internationally, especially the elite players, but your average MLS player does not make a bajillion dollars.

At the end of the day I would love to see the women's game grow, but I have my doubts it can/will until proven wrong as history says it will not.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by HonestChieffan

Well, not many. and not enough.

Its boring. And women with real money to spend on things are not watching dykes play badly

LOL, people just making comments who don't watch the games and didn't look at the data.

They were pulling in 5-8M viewers for prime time qualifier games. They pulled in 14m in the last womens world cup final.

The sports bra market is a $50b market with 12% annual growth rate. And the last women's world cup spiked Nike women's apparel sales by the billions

Nuh uh and because I said so isn't a real response.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by tredadda

Comparing the USWNT and the WNBA is not a good comparison and I can agree with you on that. But I also think that a lot of the USWNT's popularity is based on national pride and them being (up until this WWC) the best in the world. People rally behind and support it, to which we both agree. Once they stop and go to their pro leagues in the US, people forget about them. The same people watching the USWNT rarely watch the professional leagues as attendance numbers reflect.

Again, this could all change by people actually putting their money into it and actually support it. It's not some devious plot to hold down women's athletics. The money is not invested because there is viewed as no positive ROI for it. It's much easier to rally around a team representing a nation than local professional teams. Heck people who don't give two whits about soccer still watch when the USMNT plays in the WC.

If money was funneled into the MLS, there was a precedent for it before and incentive to grow it. The fact that the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, PGA, and men's collegiate sports revolving around those pro sports have been a success while zero women's sports can say that (although the women's NCAA tourney this year seemed to do well). There is zero precedence to think funneling money into women's pro leagues will grow it and make it a money winner........zero.

Your argument that "Women's soccer is very popular despite lack of attention" makes no sense. If no one is paying attention then it must not be as popular as you claim. To think the men's team just agreed to this equal pay arrangement without throwing fits shows a complete lack of awareness. Opposing it would have been suicide. And perhaps the men make more internationally, especially the elite players, but your average MLS player does not make a bajillion dollars.

At the end of the day I would love to see the women's game grow, but I have my doubts it can/will until proven wrong as history says it will not.

Money was funneled into the MLS for good reason. Of course the usmnt is #1 priority and it took an all in effort for decades to get it off the ground. I'm not saying it's an injustice. It was the right thing to do. But the women's pro league wasn't prioritized not because it wasn't interesting but because there was a red hot fire to triple down on a ginormous decades long effort to built the foundation for American men's soccer. That includes using women's earnings and pumping that into MLS. That meant pumping all public funds on MLS stadiums and pumping all marketing into MLS.

Now that infrastructure is built and MLS is self sustaining. Women's success helped get MLS off the ground, so why not return the favor? Most of the core usmnt roster plays in Europe on multimillion dollar contracts where women rely solely on US soccer pay. When I say women's soccer hasn't gotten attention. I don't mean people don't care.. The US has done a great job promoting the national team but They put zero into women's pro league infrastructure. That's changing. And the game has changed. US can't just underinvest because they're the only country that cares. Now they're having to compete with European leagues who are poaching them with better salary. US soccer needs to invest to maintain dominance. But now they compete for a way bigger purse because the international scale is growing rapidly

I think you're speaking to more a self fulfilling prophecy that people don't want to invest in women's soccer because it isn't popular, and it isn't popular because nobody is investing in it. Thats exactly what Europe said. It wasn't until 2019 til they took it seriously. You know how many attended their women's euro league final live? 91k. I'm guessing they're kicking themselves for waiting so long to care about it. I don't think it's fair to judge women's pro leagues until you earnestly try. But there are plenty of signs that it will thrive. International popularity is booming, sponsors are raking in tons of cash and uswnt has been popular even without infrastructure. And as the women's game grows, mens soccer benefits too. Why wouldn't they work together to grow the game so that both pots can be benefit?

[AussieChiefsFan]

Matildas going all the way idgaf

[JPH83]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

For the wnba yes. The uswnt is different. They're killing it in ratings and sponsorships and that includes their exhibition tours in off years. The demand is more than there. Not to mention the gazillions these parents have spent on everything from uswnt jerseys to sports bras and cleats.

What's lacking is investment. From fifa who's done an absolutely shitty job promiting on a world stage, to investors committed to building good teams. It took decades to build MLS not after decades of struggle and that soaked up the priority. But the same devotion and resources were not put into the women's game. For good reason but now that tides changing. What you need is more people like brittany and Patrick mahomes who can commit to growing a market and the league the way the Hunts did. It won't measure up to even MLS but it also doesn't have to to be very successful

Is that true of viewing figures? I would be amazed if so. Like I say, I reckon Burr's right. There's a lot of harrumphing from (some) women about how.men should watch women's sport. Sure, but you first. I get the point on marketing but i don't think there's a lack of knowledge amongst women about women's sport, as much as a lack of interest. But I'd be happy to see more of what you're talking about, and I could see that's part of the problem.

[JPH83]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Women and especially girls absolutely watch women's soccer. Nike sells a shitload of women's jerseys. It is a money maker. Not only are world cup ratings outstanding for the US, they're pulling in good attendance for meaningless exhibition games. They won't capture as many men but they don't care nor do they need to.

And it's not just about pure ad revenue. Did you know the sports bra market is $43b and has a 12% cagr (growth rate). It's expected to double in a few years. It's doing to women's apparel what tiger woods did to golf. It created a whole new category. Girls who weren't playing any sports are now buying cleats and jerseys and sports bras and all kinds of soccer shit. More importantly, it's great for advertisers. It's less eyeballs but they're extremely targeted. Women's brands can specifically target women and don't have to compete with other sports for eyeballs. Ive never watched a womens pro game but can assure you soccer mom's of soccer girls have.

A lot of what you're saying is where MLS was decades ago. Everyone said MLS would never catch on in the US. It's amateur soccer versus European leagues. It took years of shedding shit markets, building new stadiums, expansion,changing ownership, investment... Buying up big salaries even when the attendance wasn't there. Luxuries Nwsl was never afforded. but we're seeing it start to materialize. West coast teams are pulling 15-20k. Kc is building a new stadium because they're filling their current one. Can't really judge the product when they haven't put the love into it. But the growth potential is absolutely there

In the UK the only club with anything approaching a decent attendance for women's soccer is Arsenal. Clubs like Liverpool average less than 5,000 attendance, and there IS a concerted effort to market this. People, including men, increasingly watch the national side and make no effort with the domestic league. Yes, we can market it more, but a)the product needs to keep improving and b) probably more women need to actually be interested rather than tell us to be.

[GloryDayz]

Originally Posted by JPH83

In the UK the only club with anything approaching a decent attendance for women's soccer is Arsenal. Clubs like Liverpool average less than 5,000 attendance, and there IS a concerted effort to market this. People, including men, increasingly watch the national side and make no effort with the domestic league. Yes, we can market it more, but a)the product needs to keep improving and b) probably more women need to actually be interested rather than tell us to be.

The product would be better the moment they remove partisan politics and agendas from the game.

Again, thank God Rapinoe's gone, replacing it with a sane soccer-focused team leader is their best way forward.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by JPH83

In the UK the only club with anything approaching a decent attendance for women's soccer is Arsenal. Clubs like Liverpool average less than 5,000 attendance, and there IS a concerted effort to market this. People, including men, increasingly watch the national side and make no effort with the domestic league. Yes, we can market it more, but a)the product needs to keep improving and b) probably more women need to actually be interested rather than tell us to be.

That's fair that pro league games will be slow to catch on. Nationalism is easier. But without a doubt that has boomed over the past few cups. We can see it in the quality of the teams, the players, and the attendance and ratings. But you can't just footnote the success of these more nationalist matches. It shows the support is there but it just hasn't yet trickled down.

That will take time. Way better talent has emerged recently which leads to more superstars and better quality of play. Better players and pay will improve development leagues as kids aspire to professional careers. More marketable names on the national stage will trickle down support to champions leagues and ultimately club level. So many of these comments about giving up and saying people just won't accept inferior women's soccer are similar to what we heard about MLS. A vastly inferior product vs international leagues. Americans will never accept soccer. They've proven everyone wrong. But it required decades effort and those efforts on the national level are brand new for many counties and on the club level for the US. It takes infrastructure, stadium experiences, years of marketing and TV deals. It's not like the wnba where the effort has been there but it has not correlated with any success. Here the effort was not there but it's undeniable that once they started putting the effort in there have been sizeable gains.