Other Sports Off Season Lets Talk Guns, Part 2 - Page 246

HonestChieffan · 05:52 PM

Been a while since we had a guns n' ammo discussion.

Some of you are AR shooters Im sure. Im looking at a Colt 6920. Will be my first AR. Picked up a Glock this fall and really enjoy shooting it. Any feedback on that weapon?

Anyone else been in a buy/sell/trade mood with hardware?

vailpass · 10-02-2020, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frazod

Well, you seem to have made up for it.

With some helpful knowledge sharing from you and some others here.

DJ's left nut · 10-02-2020, 01:43 PM

So my BIL can get me 50% off a Vortex scope.

I'm looking at a Viper 5-25; anybody have strong preferences on first or second focal planes?

Ultimately this is just going to be a hunting scope, I won't be doing competitive shooting with it so I'm not sure that FFP will really matter, but if anyone just strongly prefers the FFP style (as opposed to the SFP style most of us are used to), I'd be curious to hear it.

Megatron96 · 10-02-2020, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

So my BIL can get me 50% off a Vortex scope.

I'm looking at a Viper 5-25; anybody have strong preferences on first or second focal planes?

Ultimately this is just going to be a hunting scope, I won't be doing competitive shooting with it so I'm not sure that FFP will really matter, but if anyone just strongly prefers the FFP style (as opposed to the SFP style most of us are used to), I'd be curious to hear it.

Generally, you want a first focal plane (FFP). But for 99% of hunting a SPP won't really make a bit of difference, because you won't be shooting far enough for it to matter. I will say that 5x25 is a lot of mag for a hunting weapon. What are you hunting?

**Perineum Ripper** · 10-02-2020, 01:51 PM

I like first focal because I like all my holdovers to stay the same no matter what magnification. That’s really my only reason behind liking it more, other than training with them.

For my regular hunting rifle I have second focal since I only go to maybe 400-500 yards at most. My longer range rifles all have the first focal.

DJ's left nut · 10-02-2020, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megatron96

Generally, you want a first focal plane (FFP). But for 99% of hunting a SPP won't really make a bit of difference, because you won't be shooting far enough for it to matter. I will say that 5x25 is a lot of mag for a hunting weapon. What are you hunting?

Oh it's just gonna go on my 7mm for now and be used on deer and elk until I come up with a 'big boy' hunt out west or further north some day.

I like the ability to have it if I need it. I think 3-15 was the alternative and I agree that it would probably be just a little more practical. But if I ever WANT to do some long-range shooting, I think I'll be awfully happy to have the 25 power and ultimately the price difference at 50% off is just so nominal.

DJ's left nut · 10-02-2020, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac459

I like first focal because I like all my holdovers to stay the same no matter what magnification. That’s really my only reason behind liking it more, other than training with them.

For my regular hunting rifle I have second focal since I only go to maybe 400-500 yards at most. My longer range rifles all have the first focal.

Yeah, ultimately that was kinda my thought. If I'm not going to target/competitive shoot, the holdovers just don't mean anything or matter to me.

So rather than risk that small 'pinched' reticle at 5x that I could end up losing if i'm in low light and/or timber, I figured the SFP would be more bulletproof.

Megatron96 · 10-02-2020, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Oh it's just gonna go on my 7mm for now and be used on deer and elk until I come up with a 'big boy' hunt out west or further north some day.

I like the ability to have it if I need it. I think 3-15 was the alternative and I agree that it would probably be just a little more practical. But if I ever WANT to do some long-range shooting, I think I'll be awfully happy to have the 25 power and ultimately the price difference at 50% off is just so nominal.

Ah, okay. Actually I did something similar, so I get where you're coming from. Sometimes the price is so good you pretty much have to buy it.

The Viper is a great scope, IMO. If they're giving it away, I'd go ahead and buy it. But overall, FFP is the way to go.

DJ's left nut · 10-02-2020, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megatron96

Ah, okay. Actually I did something similar, so I get where you're coming from. Sometimes the price is so good you pretty much have to buy it.

The Viper is a great scope, IMO. If they're giving it away, I'd go ahead and buy it. But overall, FFP is the way to go.

Do you ever get frustrated by the reticle 'zooming' with sight picture? I worry that it would create an awful lot of clutter and sometimes interfere w/ your vision or aim point.

And really, like I said, easily my biggest worry is that it tightens up on the smaller magnification settings. It shrinks as your power does and with as much low-light hunting as I do, especially with a dark backdrop in timber, I worry that if I'm at 5-8 power w/ that reticle having shrunk down so much that I might struggle to pick it out.

Granted, the vortex will illuminate because it's just a horse of a scope, but it seems to be a common complaint.

DJ's left nut · 10-02-2020, 02:30 PM

Also, y'all gave some solid advice on lessening the hammer on my Rem 700 and a muzzle brake was suggested.

The problem is that my Remington is REALLY basic and doesn't have a threaded barrel. So to get it threaded by a gun smith would really cost more than the gun is truly worth. With the threading, the brake and the recoil pad, I'd have way more in the gun than it's worth and at a point it makes more sense to just sell it and buy something new.

But then I saw this guy:

https://www.wittmachine.net/custom-c...zle-brake.html

It's a clamp on muzzle-brake. It gets damn good reviews and has been used specifically on the Rem 700. I gotta believe it won't be QUITE as effective...but has anyone used one or heard of them before?

I think it may be a pretty cost effective solution. I'd be about $150 into this for a good recoil pad and a clamp-on brake. If that works and then I slap that Viper on that 7mm Remington...well still have an ugly gun, but I have a DAMN good shooter and haven't dropped $1,500 on the BAR.

Anyone use one or hear positive/negative things about them?

verbaljitsu · 10-02-2020, 03:01 PM

The Viper PST gen II is a good scope. I have a gen I Viper, a gen II Viper, and a 4.5-27 Razor. The Gen II Viper is really based on a lot of the technology in the Razor. The Viper has a good zero stop design, good reticle (EBR 7 preference), good but not great glass, and a smaller 30mm tube. Its unclear whether you are shooting 7mm mag, 7x57, or 7mm-08. With the 7x57 and 7-08 you would run out of elevation relatively quick with the Viper. You can do some things like install a rail with built in elevation to help combat that.

I think the real sweet spot for scopes that are "long range" and hunting is 3-18.
A general rule of thumb is you want at least one power for every 100 yards. So, 10x for 1000 yards. Scopes typically function better towards the middle of their power range though, so, if you had a 20x scope, good chance that 10x is the best optical clarity. In this case, the 5-25 only outweighs the 3-15 by 3 ounces.

I rarely turn my scope all the way up to make a shot. For example, I will typically shoot 1000 yard targets on about 12 power. What I will do is turn the scope all the way up to look at mirage to make a wind call. The less you have the scope turned up, the more field of view you get, and the easier it is to spot your own shot or see your own bullet trace.

The new conventional wisdom is that FFP is better, and I tend to agree. It makes it easier to range with the reticle and use it as a ruler. The most useful thing about FFP is using your reticle as a ruler. You can literally measure how far your miss was from your aim and make adjustments, either by holding or dialing quickly. SFP scopes can only do that with one magnification setting. Your hold overs are also the same at every magnification. The downside is the reticle can be too big or too small, it is more expensive, and it usually adds weight.

As far as muzzle brakes go, I recommend the APA lil bastard. Barrel threading is usually about a hundred bucks. I don't know your barrel profile though obviously. Clamping something on the end of the barrel is going to change your harmonics. Threading something on will too, but it might be more repeatable. I haven't used a clamp on device before.

Fish · 10-02-2020, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Also, y'all gave some solid advice on lessening the hammer on my Rem 700 and a muzzle brake was suggested.

The problem is that my Remington is REALLY basic and doesn't have a threaded barrel. So to get it threaded by a gun smith would really cost more than the gun is truly worth. With the threading, the brake and the recoil pad, I'd have way more in the gun than it's worth and at a point it makes more sense to just sell it and buy something new.

But then I saw this guy:

https://www.wittmachine.net/custom-c...zle-brake.html

It's a clamp on muzzle-brake. It gets damn good reviews and has been used specifically on the Rem 700. I gotta believe it won't be QUITE as effective...but has anyone used one or heard of them before?

I think it may be a pretty cost effective solution. I'd be about $150 into this for a good recoil pad and a clamp-on brake. If that works and then I slap that Viper on that 7mm Remington...well still have an ugly gun, but I have a DAMN good shooter and haven't dropped $1,500 on the BAR.

Anyone use one or hear positive/negative things about them?

Not a fan of muzzle brakes, personally. I've got one of the built-in twist ones on my .270, but really never use it. Does it reduce the recoil? Sure. But it's insanely loud for what modest reduction you get. If you're routinely putting hundreds of rounds through it at the range, maybe. The clamp on fit would make me a little nervous too.

DJ's left nut · 10-02-2020, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fish

Not a fan of muzzle brakes, personally. I've got one of the built-in twist ones on my .270, but really never use it. Does it reduce the recoil? Sure. But it's insanely loud for what modest reduction you get. If you're routinely putting hundreds of rounds through it at the range, maybe. The clamp on fit would make me a little nervous too.

If I'm putting more than a couple rounds through it, I'm using my headset anyway. The increased noise really doesn't concern me.

As for the clamp-fit, I agree. But interestingly, these guys custom machine yours. They ask you to get a digital caliper and give them a measurement at the crown and 1.5 inches behind it. And if you mis-measure they'll re-machine it for you.

Like you, I'm wary. But man, the reviews on it are pretty spectacular and oftentimes for exactly my gun and/or round.

I'm just !@#$ing done with the recoil on this rifle, that's the long and short of it. I'm sure a pad would do a lot but if I'm in for a penny, I'm in for another $90 if this can give me even another 30% reduction (when they're claiming 60% and reviews are saying it gets the thing down to .243 range on stuff like a 300 win mag, which is a mule in its own right; probably worse than my 7mm).

DJ's left nut · 10-02-2020, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by verbaljitsu

The Viper PST gen II is a good scope. I have a gen I Viper, a gen II Viper, and a 4.5-27 Razor. The Gen II Viper is really based on a lot of the technology in the Razor. The Viper has a good zero stop design, good reticle (EBR 7 preference), good but not great glass, and a smaller 30mm tube. Its unclear whether you are shooting 7mm mag

I rarely turn my scope all the way up to make a shot. For example, I will typically shoot 1000 yard targets on about 12 power. What I will do is turn the scope all the way up to look at mirage to make a wind call. The less you have the scope turned up, the more field of view you get, and the easier it is to spot your own shot or see your own bullet trace.

As far as muzzle brakes go, I recommend the APA lil bastard. Barrel threading is usually about a hundred bucks. I don't know your barrel profile though obviously. Clamping something on the end of the barrel is going to change your harmonics. Threading something on will too, but it might be more repeatable. I haven't used a clamp on device before.

7mm Mag.

The bold is an outstanding point that I forgot to mention. My dinky little 10x scope occasionally leaves me needing to crank it up more than I want and as you noted, your field of view is just awful. That's also why I was liking the idea of the 25. Thanks for the tip on the 'middle of the range' thing - good advice that I hadn't heard before. I typically keep mine turned down quite a bit because if I'm walking and something jumps up, I want to be able to quickly acquire the target and that's damn hard to do with any kind of heavy magnification (you inevitably get the dreaded 'black out' on my shitty scope anyway).

Megatron96 · 10-02-2020, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Do you ever get frustrated by the reticle 'zooming' with sight picture? I worry that it would create an awful lot of clutter and sometimes interfere w/ your vision or aim point.

And really, like I said, easily my biggest worry is that it tightens up on the smaller magnification settings. It shrinks as your power does and with as much low-light hunting as I do, especially with a dark backdrop in timber, I worry that if I'm at 5-8 power w/ that reticle having shrunk down so much that I might struggle to pick it out.

Granted, the vortex will illuminate because it's just a horse of a scope, but it seems to be a common complaint.

I honestly never really noticed any undue reticle zooming. But my reticle isn't nearly as fancy as the one you're buying. It's a basic full dot mil-dot reticle. My prairie dog buddy has one similar to the Viper you're buying and I've sighted down it, and again didn't notice a lot of clutter. But we're out on an open prairie; maybe it would be more noticeable in a wooded area.

But he does rave about it. Enough that I've been considering buying yet another p-dog scope with all the bells and whistles.

Sorry, that's not very helpful.

**Shiver Me Timbers** · 10-02-2020, 05:50 PM

For Sharts and grins I put a laser on my new(ish) IWI TS 12 (Bull Pup style shotgun).
I was firing it tucked just below the armpit. That thing is pretty accurate at 50 yards spitting out slugs and 00 buck. Had a blast.

01-23-2011, 11:58 AM
HonestChieffan Seeking the Truth daily Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the Country in MO Casino cash: $214309	Off Season Lets Talk Guns, Part 2 Been a while since we had a guns n' ammo discussion. Some of you are AR shooters Im sure. Im looking at a Colt 6920. Will be my first AR. Picked up a Glock this fall and really enjoy shooting it. Any feedback on that weapon? Anyone else been in a buy/sell/trade mood with hardware? Last edited by Bearcat; 07-28-2015 at 05:52 PM..
Posts: 53,978

10-02-2020, 01:43 PM	#3677
DJ's left nut Sauntering Vaguely Downwards Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Columbia, Mo Casino cash: $949099	So my BIL can get me 50% off a Vortex scope. I'm looking at a Viper 5-25; anybody have strong preferences on first or second focal planes? Ultimately this is just going to be a hunting scope, I won't be doing competitive shooting with it so I'm not sure that FFP will really matter, but if anyone just strongly prefers the FFP style (as opposed to the SFP style most of us are used to), I'd be curious to hear it. __________________ "If there's a god, he's laughing at us.....and our football team..." "When you look at something through rose colored glasses, all the red flags just look like flags."
Posts: 63,643

10-02-2020, 01:51 PM	#3679
Perineum Ripper Supporter Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Missouri Casino cash: $-40458	I like first focal because I like all my holdovers to stay the same no matter what magnification. That’s really my only reason behind liking it more, other than training with them. For my regular hunting rifle I have second focal since I only go to maybe 400-500 yards at most. My longer range rifles all have the first focal.
Posts: 5,259

10-02-2020, 02:30 PM	#3684
DJ's left nut Sauntering Vaguely Downwards Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Columbia, Mo Casino cash: $949099	Also, y'all gave some solid advice on lessening the hammer on my Rem 700 and a muzzle brake was suggested. The problem is that my Remington is REALLY basic and doesn't have a threaded barrel. So to get it threaded by a gun smith would really cost more than the gun is truly worth. With the threading, the brake and the recoil pad, I'd have way more in the gun than it's worth and at a point it makes more sense to just sell it and buy something new. But then I saw this guy: https://www.wittmachine.net/custom-c...zle-brake.html It's a clamp on muzzle-brake. It gets damn good reviews and has been used specifically on the Rem 700. I gotta believe it won't be QUITE as effective...but has anyone used one or heard of them before? I think it may be a pretty cost effective solution. I'd be about $150 into this for a good recoil pad and a clamp-on brake. If that works and then I slap that Viper on that 7mm Remington...well still have an ugly gun, but I have a DAMN good shooter and haven't dropped $1,500 on the BAR. Anyone use one or hear positive/negative things about them? __________________ "If there's a god, he's laughing at us.....and our football team..." "When you look at something through rose colored glasses, all the red flags just look like flags."
Posts: 63,643

10-02-2020, 03:01 PM	#3685
verbaljitsu Starter Join Date: Dec 2009 Casino cash: $10013092	The Viper PST gen II is a good scope. I have a gen I Viper, a gen II Viper, and a 4.5-27 Razor. The Gen II Viper is really based on a lot of the technology in the Razor. The Viper has a good zero stop design, good reticle (EBR 7 preference), good but not great glass, and a smaller 30mm tube. Its unclear whether you are shooting 7mm mag, 7x57, or 7mm-08. With the 7x57 and 7-08 you would run out of elevation relatively quick with the Viper. You can do some things like install a rail with built in elevation to help combat that. I think the real sweet spot for scopes that are "long range" and hunting is 3-18. A general rule of thumb is you want at least one power for every 100 yards. So, 10x for 1000 yards. Scopes typically function better towards the middle of their power range though, so, if you had a 20x scope, good chance that 10x is the best optical clarity. In this case, the 5-25 only outweighs the 3-15 by 3 ounces. I rarely turn my scope all the way up to make a shot. For example, I will typically shoot 1000 yard targets on about 12 power. What I will do is turn the scope all the way up to look at mirage to make a wind call. The less you have the scope turned up, the more field of view you get, and the easier it is to spot your own shot or see your own bullet trace. The new conventional wisdom is that FFP is better, and I tend to agree. It makes it easier to range with the reticle and use it as a ruler. The most useful thing about FFP is using your reticle as a ruler. You can literally measure how far your miss was from your aim and make adjustments, either by holding or dialing quickly. SFP scopes can only do that with one magnification setting. Your hold overs are also the same at every magnification. The downside is the reticle can be too big or too small, it is more expensive, and it usually adds weight. As far as muzzle brakes go, I recommend the APA lil bastard. Barrel threading is usually about a hundred bucks. I don't know your barrel profile though obviously. Clamping something on the end of the barrel is going to change your harmonics. Threading something on will too, but it might be more repeatable. I haven't used a clamp on device before.
Posts: 440	1 0

10-02-2020, 05:50 PM	#3690
Shiver Me Timbers Elway be drinkin' again Join Date: Dec 2017 Location: Colorado USA Casino cash: $5665001	For Sharts and grins I put a laser on my new(ish) IWI TS 12 (Bull Pup style shotgun). I was firing it tucked just below the armpit. That thing is pretty accurate at 50 yards spitting out slugs and 00 buck. Had a blast.
Posts: 5,057	2 0