***Official Bushwood Country Club Lounge***

[smittysbar]

Okay, here is a place for the Golfers to talk about tournaments, clubs, swing help or thoughts.

Today is the Players Championship, which I think ought to be the 5th Major. Largest pot in the PGA. The daunting 17th, which seems to bring excitement every year. At least we will get to see Sergio blow up yet again.

I am ready to see some water balls!

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by Rudy Was Offsides

See... I would think the parity in today's game would favor Woods. Guys like Scott who finally got his first major. Donald, Westwood, and Sergio with 0. Mickelson had less than he should have. Who's gonna be a guy after Tiger that gets 7 or 8 majors? McElroy? Maybe.

How many times did those guys finish second to Tiger?

Phil did in the 2002 US Open. Sergio did in the 1999 PGA. Other than that, I don't believe any of them did. Those guys haven't lost majors because Tiger hoovered them up; they lost them because they failed in clutch moments.

Luke Donald is the perfect example of what I'm talking about. That guy will be a top 20 OWGR player for years, but he'll never win a major. Westwood doesn't have it, and neither does Sergio.

To be honest, McIlroy is a mentally weak player too, but he's so damned talented that when he's on he can lap a field.

The truly great players are the ones who can win w/o their best game, and Rory can't fight his swing or confidence and perform.

[KC_Connection]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

I wish I could have been around for more of it, but I think that people really underestimate how ****ing awesome Jack Nicklaus was at golf.

In the early 1960s he won the PGA long drive competition with a 340+ yard bomb using a 43" steel shafted persimmon driver and a wound balata ball with the compression of a mush melon.

That's probably a 410 yard drive today.

No one broke that record for 20 years.

Oh, I'm a big fan of Jack. He was excellent for so, so long in this sport. But what Tiger has done so far is incredibly impressive too and he isn't anywhere close to done apparently.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by Rudy Was Offsides

Well the courses play significantly harder.

Bullshit.

The entire course setup is perfect, the ball spins less off the driver, which is far more forgiving, while going 25 yards farther. Ball travels farther on every club, and you don't need a super spinny balata to hold greens due to improvement in multilayer ball design, CNC milling of club surfaces, and micrometer tolerance of modern enginerring.

A 6500 yard course from 1975 is a 7400 yard course now. The 6500 yard course also didn't have watered and striped fairways, rough w/ perfect consistency, and bunkers with perfectly manicured sand.

[KC_Connection]

To be honest, I'm not even really sure which of the two is the best. Sort of like comparing Bonds to Ruth, it's hard to judge dominance in different eras accurately. But I do think you can make an argument for both right now.

[Rudy tossed tigger's salad]

I'm not saying they should have more because of Tiger, I'm saying it's harder to win one now than it was back then. Deeper competition. You see a lot of guys nowadays with just one major. If twenty years goes by and nobody sniffs 10 majors, it'll say a lot about what Woods accomplished in his era

[KC_Connection]

Originally Posted by Jerm

Oh and the U.S. Open is at Merion....yeah go ahead and give Tiger the trophy now.

He's getting closer and closer to his early 2000s form which is scary...

Having success at TPC Sawgrass for the first time since then is a pretty damn good sign.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by Rudy Was Offsides

I'm not saying they should have more because of Tiger, I'm saying it's harder to win one now than it was back then. Deeper competition. You see a lot of guys nowadays with just one major. If twenty years goes by and nobody sniffs 10 majors, it'll say a lot about what Woods accomplished in his era

Then how do you explain the period from 1981-1997?

[Rudy tossed tigger's salad]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

Bullshit.

The entire course setup is perfect, the ball spins less off the driver, which is far more forgiving, while going 25 yards farther. Ball travels farther on every club, and you don't need a super spinny balata to hold greens due to improvement in multilayer ball design, CNC milling of club surfaces, and micrometer tolerance of modern enginerring.

A 6500 yard course from 1975 is a 7400 yard course now. The 6500 yard course also didn't have watered and striped fairways, rough w/ perfect consistency, and bunkers with perfectly manicured sand.

I'm no golf historian, so I'll defer here.... but I still think jack's era is overrated.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

The USGA is going to have their hands full with Merion. If they stay with the graduated rough around the greens that course is going to get slaughtered.

[philfree]

Jack is still the best in my book. The equipment and ball improvements have been dramatic and make a huge difference. IMO Tiger hit just when the equipment really made a leap and he was one of the first to take advantage of it. It fit him like a glove and he kicked ass with it.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Originally Posted by philfree

Jack is still the best in my book. The equipment and ball improvements have been dramatic and make a huge difference. IMO Tiger hit just when the equipment really made a leap and he was one of the first to take advantage of it. It fit him like a glove and he kicked ass with it.

This is just not true. Tiger was one of the last adopters of a titanium driver and an even later user of a graphite shaft. Those advances actually hurt him in comparison to the field.

['Hamas' Jenkins]

Tiger's clubs in 1997 and 2000 (IIRC):

'97

King Cobra Stainless Driver
Titleist PT 3 Wood
Mizuno MP 29 Irons (Titleist and Nike both ripped them off and rebadged them)
Cleveland Wedges (sans ferrule on one of them)
Scotty Cameron Ping Anser rip-off

DG X100 shafts

I believe the biggest change to 2000 was the integration of Vokey wedges and a steel shafted Titanium Driver. Don't know if it was the 975D or if he'd gone to the piece of shit Nike first gen driver by then.

[philfree]

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins

This is just not true. Tiger was one of the last adopters of a titanium driver and an even later user of a graphite shaft. Those advances actually hurt him in comparison to the field.

Well you are the Tiger Woods expert so I'll defer. I do know what it was like to play with a set of Gene The Machine Litler's though. Probably closer to what Jack played with.

[Jerm]

The golf ball makes a TON of difference in today's game as well...the old ball forced guys to be more creative and actually play different shots and become shotmakers. It wasn't just grip it and rip it and spin from 3' rough like it is today.

Guys are going to continue to bomb it 5 miles and obliterate courses as long as the equipment companies keep developing new balls.

This morning on The Morning Drive John Cook was talking about how he used to hit a 6 iron to the 17th and never hit anything less than an 8 to it...that's nuts.

On Thursday Mickelson hit a FOUR IRON off the tee at 18 and was still able to reach the green comfortably. It's way out of hand...

I wish they'd introduce a tour spec ball...will never happen though.

[Jerm]

It was also funny to hear Skip Bayless (I know) act like he knows golf and knows what he's talking about by trying to insinuate the Tiger/Sergio beef started at Medinah at the '99 PGA because of Sergio's little air kick after the miracle behind the tree shot and he spouted some bullshit about Sergio holing a putt and pointing at Tiger and smack talking him or something. He's a moron.

The rivalry didn't really start until 2000 and the Battle at Bighorn when Sergio celebrated like he'd won the Masters and really rubbed in Tiger's face. That was when shit got real...