Home Discord Chat
Go Back   ChiefsPlanet > Nzoner's Game Room
Register FAQDonate Members List Calendar

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-12-2011, 07:57 AM  
Saulbadguy Saulbadguy is offline
When a nightmare becomes real
 
Saulbadguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Casino cash: $1956966
New Conference re-alignment thread

The old one has AIDS.

Anyways, Chip Brown from Orangebloods.com reports OU may apply to the Pac-12 by the end of the month.

Oklahoma will apply for membership to the Pac-12 before the end of the month, and Oklahoma State is expected to follow suit, a source close to OU's administration told Orangebloods.com.

Even though Pac-12 commissioner Larry Scott said Friday the Pac-12 was not interested in expansion at this time, OU's board of regents is fed up with the instability in the Big 12, the source said.

The OU board of regents will meet within two weeks to formalize plans to apply for membership to the Pac-12, the source said.

Messages left Sunday night with OU athletic director Joe Castiglione and Oklahoma State athletic director Mike Holder were not immediately returned.

If OU follows through with what appears to be a unanimous sentiment on the seven-member Oklahoma board of regents to leave the Big 12, realignment in college athletics could be heating back up. OU's application would be matched by an application from Oklahoma State, the source said, even though OSU president Burns Hargis and mega-booster Boone Pickens both voiced their support for the Big 12 last Thursday.

There is differing sentiment about if the Pac-12 presidents and chancellors are ready to expand again after bringing in Colorado and Utah last year and landing $3 billion TV contracts from Fox and ESPN. Colorado president Bruce Benson told reporters last week CU would be opposed to any expansion that might bring about east and west divisions in the Pac-12.

Currently, there are north and south divisions in the Pac-12. If OU and OSU were to join, Larry Scott would have to get creative.

Scott's orginal plan last summer was to bring in Colorado, Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech, Oklahoma and Oklahoma State and put them in an eastern division with Arizona and Arizona State. The old Pac-8 schools (USC, UCLA, Cal, Stanford, Oregon, Oregon State, Washington and Washington State) were to be in the west division.

Colorado made the move in June 2010, but when Texas A&M was not on board to go west, the Big 12 came back together with the help of its television partners (ABC/ESPN and Fox).

If Oklahoma and Oklahoma State were accepted into the Pac-12, there would undoubtedly be a hope by Larry Scott that Texas would join the league. But Texas sources have indicated UT is determined to hang onto the Longhorn Network, which would not be permissible in the Pac-12 in its current form.

Texas sources continue to indicate to Orangebloods.com that if the Big 12 falls apart, the Longhorns would consider "all options."

Big 12 commissioner Dan Beebe held an emergency conference call 10 days ago with league presidents excluding Oklahoma, Texas and Texas A&M and asked the other league presidents to "work on Texas" because Beebe didn't think the Pac-12 would take Oklahoma without Texas.

Now, it appears OU is willing to take its chances with the Pac-12 with or without Texas.

There seemed to be a temporary pause in any possible shifting of the college athletics' landscape when Baylor led a charge to tie up Texas A&M's move to the Southeastern Conference in legal red tape. BU refused to waive its right to sue the SEC over A&M's departure from the Big 12, and the SEC said it would not admit Texas A&M until it had been cleared of any potential lawsuits.

Baylor, Kansas and Iowa State have indicated they will not waive their right to sue the SEC.

It's unclear if an application by OU to the Pac-12 would draw the same threats of litigation against the Pac-12 from those Big 12 schools.

Stay tuned.
Posts: 46,989
Saulbadguy threw an interception on a screen pass.Saulbadguy threw an interception on a screen pass.Saulbadguy threw an interception on a screen pass.Saulbadguy threw an interception on a screen pass.Saulbadguy threw an interception on a screen pass.Saulbadguy threw an interception on a screen pass.Saulbadguy threw an interception on a screen pass.Saulbadguy threw an interception on a screen pass.Saulbadguy threw an interception on a screen pass.Saulbadguy threw an interception on a screen pass.Saulbadguy threw an interception on a screen pass.
    Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2011, 01:53 PM   #3196
Reaper16 Reaper16 is offline
Eat/Sleep/Procrastinate/Repeat
 
Reaper16's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dystopia
Casino cash: $10017397
Quote:
Originally Posted by KcMizzou View Post
KK "Kansas City is not on Mizzou's radar. They don't care about us."

KK is right about that, for better or for worse.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delano View Post
Reaper16's taste in beer, music, and literature are unmatched on this message board.
Posted via Mobile Device
Posts: 33,369
Reaper16 has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Reaper16 has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Reaper16 has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Reaper16 has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Reaper16 has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Reaper16 has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Reaper16 has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Reaper16 has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Reaper16 has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Reaper16 has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Reaper16 has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.
    Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2011, 01:54 PM   #3197
Saul Good Saul Good is offline
Quit your bullshit
 

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bored of winning
Casino cash: $10052799
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Plow View Post
Biggest game of the year? Texas/OU?
The ****?
__________________
Today is not a good day to be a pussy.
Posts: 41,870
Saul Good is obviously part of the inner Circle.Saul Good is obviously part of the inner Circle.Saul Good is obviously part of the inner Circle.Saul Good is obviously part of the inner Circle.Saul Good is obviously part of the inner Circle.Saul Good is obviously part of the inner Circle.Saul Good is obviously part of the inner Circle.Saul Good is obviously part of the inner Circle.Saul Good is obviously part of the inner Circle.Saul Good is obviously part of the inner Circle.Saul Good is obviously part of the inner Circle.
    Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2011, 01:55 PM   #3198
Mr. Plow Mr. Plow is offline
In Search of a Life
 
Mr. Plow's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2005
Casino cash: $1357391
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saul Good View Post
The ****?
Well, since you caught it before I deleted. I meant it as far as big named team, OU/UT would be a bigger game. As far as mutual hate, MU would be a bigger game. Depends on how you look at it. Either way, it's generally a loss for KU.
Posts: 30,897
Mr. Plow is obviously part of the inner Circle.Mr. Plow is obviously part of the inner Circle.Mr. Plow is obviously part of the inner Circle.Mr. Plow is obviously part of the inner Circle.Mr. Plow is obviously part of the inner Circle.Mr. Plow is obviously part of the inner Circle.Mr. Plow is obviously part of the inner Circle.Mr. Plow is obviously part of the inner Circle.Mr. Plow is obviously part of the inner Circle.Mr. Plow is obviously part of the inner Circle.Mr. Plow is obviously part of the inner Circle.
    Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2011, 01:56 PM   #3199
Trevo_410 Trevo_410 is offline
Veteran
 
Trevo_410's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Independence, Missouri
Casino cash: $4455380
i think because we would be playing a much better value of teams in the sec, the appeal in KC should stay the same, especially for pure football college fans.
Posts: 1,514
Trevo_410 has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.Trevo_410 has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.Trevo_410 has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.Trevo_410 has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.Trevo_410 has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.Trevo_410 has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.Trevo_410 has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.Trevo_410 has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.Trevo_410 has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.Trevo_410 has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.Trevo_410 has just been standing around suckin' on a big ol' chili dog.
    Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2011, 01:56 PM   #3200
Reerun_KC Reerun_KC is offline
Rock Chalk Jayhawks! KU!!!
 
Reerun_KC's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2005
Casino cash: $8151160
Quote:
Originally Posted by |Zach| View Post
You went from you don't think they can compete with Alabama...then jumped to they will be a doormat.

In recent years they beat Arkansas in the Cotton Bowl. Beat Ol Miss in Oxford. They are 5-1 recently against SEC teams.

Missouri isn't a stranger to big time football. Will it be harder? Yes. Will they be a doormat? lol.
IF the SEC went to KU and said come on, we want your basketball history...

Every KU fan in the world would tell Texas and OU to cram it up their cram holes were going to the SEC...

In the blink of an eye.
Posts: 934
Reerun_KC is obviously part of the inner Circle.Reerun_KC is obviously part of the inner Circle.Reerun_KC is obviously part of the inner Circle.Reerun_KC is obviously part of the inner Circle.Reerun_KC is obviously part of the inner Circle.Reerun_KC is obviously part of the inner Circle.Reerun_KC is obviously part of the inner Circle.Reerun_KC is obviously part of the inner Circle.Reerun_KC is obviously part of the inner Circle.Reerun_KC is obviously part of the inner Circle.Reerun_KC is obviously part of the inner Circle.
    Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2011, 01:57 PM   #3201
Coach Coach is offline
Champs!
 
Coach's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Kansas City
Casino cash: $5608476
Quote:
Originally Posted by |Zach| View Post
You went from you don't think they can compete with Alabama...then jumped to they will be a doormat.

In recent years they beat Arkansas in the Cotton Bowl. Beat Ol Miss in Oxford. They are 5-1 recently against SEC teams.

Missouri isn't a stranger to big time football. Will it be harder? Yes. Will they be a doormat? lol.
Well, good case. The issue here is, the talent in SEC is far much more superior than it is in the Big XII. Instead of playing a 2-8 Kansas team, most likely you will be playing a 3-7 Vanderbilt team, or 4-6 Arkansas team.

Hell, if KSU did go to the SEC, I would be somewhat concerned about how they would actually fare against teams like those, to be truthful with you.

Either way, I'm not so sure if I want to move a team that has been recently in the middle pack to the top level of the Big XII to be in a middle pack to the bottom of a SEC.
__________________
Super Bowl IV, LIV, LVII & LVIII Champions
2020, 2021, 2023, & 2024 AFC Champions
1985 & 2015 Major League Baseball World Series Champions
1980, 1985, 2014, & 2015 Major League Baseball American League Champions
2015 American League Central Division Champs
Posts: 53,238
Coach is obviously part of the inner Circle.Coach is obviously part of the inner Circle.Coach is obviously part of the inner Circle.Coach is obviously part of the inner Circle.Coach is obviously part of the inner Circle.Coach is obviously part of the inner Circle.Coach is obviously part of the inner Circle.Coach is obviously part of the inner Circle.Coach is obviously part of the inner Circle.Coach is obviously part of the inner Circle.Coach is obviously part of the inner Circle.
    Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2011, 01:57 PM   #3202
mnchiefsguy mnchiefsguy is offline
MVP
 
mnchiefsguy's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2003
Casino cash: $3166206
KC is not on Mizzou's radar. I am okay with that. Love to hear KK and the like on the radio talking like Mizzou should give up millions of dollars, just to support KC. This is a ridiculous notion.
Posts: 10,131
mnchiefsguy is obviously part of the inner Circle.mnchiefsguy is obviously part of the inner Circle.mnchiefsguy is obviously part of the inner Circle.mnchiefsguy is obviously part of the inner Circle.mnchiefsguy is obviously part of the inner Circle.mnchiefsguy is obviously part of the inner Circle.mnchiefsguy is obviously part of the inner Circle.mnchiefsguy is obviously part of the inner Circle.mnchiefsguy is obviously part of the inner Circle.mnchiefsguy is obviously part of the inner Circle.mnchiefsguy is obviously part of the inner Circle.
    Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2011, 01:58 PM   #3203
kstater kstater is offline
Custom User Title
 
kstater's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2007
Casino cash: $1206563
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saulbadguy View Post
Just to pat myself on the back, and to lighten the mood, enjoy goEMAW.com proposed SEC divisional names:

http://goemaw.com/forum/index.php?topic=15166.0
Cartierfor3 wins that thread.
Posts: 39,204
kstater threw an interception on a screen pass.kstater threw an interception on a screen pass.kstater threw an interception on a screen pass.kstater threw an interception on a screen pass.kstater threw an interception on a screen pass.kstater threw an interception on a screen pass.kstater threw an interception on a screen pass.kstater threw an interception on a screen pass.kstater threw an interception on a screen pass.kstater threw an interception on a screen pass.kstater threw an interception on a screen pass.
    Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2011, 02:00 PM   #3204
Saulbadguy Saulbadguy is offline
When a nightmare becomes real
 
Saulbadguy's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2003
Casino cash: $1956966
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReeTodd_KC View Post
IF the SEC went to KU and said come on, we want your basketball history...

Every KU fan in the world would tell Texas and OU to cram it up their cram holes were going to the SEC...

In the blink of an eye.
I don't get it.

I honestly want the Big XII to work. **** the criminals in the $EC. **** the slow, boring as shit Big 10. **** 'em all, i'd rather stay put and enjoy the historic rivalries we've had with the old Big 8 members, and keep beating the shit out of Texas in every sport.
__________________
http://www.goemaw.com
Posts: 46,989
Saulbadguy threw an interception on a screen pass.Saulbadguy threw an interception on a screen pass.Saulbadguy threw an interception on a screen pass.Saulbadguy threw an interception on a screen pass.Saulbadguy threw an interception on a screen pass.Saulbadguy threw an interception on a screen pass.Saulbadguy threw an interception on a screen pass.Saulbadguy threw an interception on a screen pass.Saulbadguy threw an interception on a screen pass.Saulbadguy threw an interception on a screen pass.Saulbadguy threw an interception on a screen pass.
    Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2011, 02:01 PM   #3205
Crush Crush is offline
Amateur Poster
 
Crush's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2004
Casino cash: $4707091
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...c0baaa102dd982

Athletic directors meeting at SEC headquarters

By JOHN ZENOR, AP Sports Writer – 2 hours ago

BIRMINGHAM, Ala. (AP) — SEC athletic directors and Commissioner Mike Slive met Wednesday to discuss the logistics of Texas A&M's entry as the 13th member even though No. 14 might soon be on its way.

The meeting comes a day after University of Missouri curators voted unanimously to consider leaving the Big 12 — likely to join the Southeastern Conference — instead of committing to the league for the long term. However, SEC spokesman Charles Bloom said the AD meeting at league headquarters was scheduled several weeks ago.

"The focus of the meeting is the integration of Texas A&M into the Southeastern Conference," Bloom said, adding that the majority of the day would be spent discussing scheduling with 13 teams.

Other athletic department staffers and the transition team formed after Texas A&M's admission into the league also participated in the meeting in a conference room in the downtown Birmingham offices that was still ongoing Wednesday afternoon.

Slive has said he would prepare to go into next year as if there will be 13 teams, which would create unbalanced divisions. As for adding a 14th, he has emphasized that the SEC would be "strategic and thoughtful" in expansion, but shed little light otherwise on the league's plans.

SEC school administrators have indicated that adding a 14th school is likely, perhaps imminent.

South Carolina President Harris Pastides has said he doesn't "think 13 is a sustainable number, but I think 14 is." He added that he doesn't advocate growing to a 16-team league.

Tennessee athletic director Dave Hart has said the SEC will expand again but that members need to be deliberate in taking that next step.

The vote by Missouri curators makes the Tigers a leading contender.

The Big 12 said Monday that presidents and chancellors of the remaining nine members — including Missouri Chancellor Brady Deaton — have agreed to equal revenue sharing and to seek approval from each university to hand over the most lucrative television rights to the conference for six years.

Copyright © 2011 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.
Posts: 15,298
Crush has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.Crush has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.Crush has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.Crush has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.Crush has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.Crush has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.Crush has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.Crush has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.Crush has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.Crush has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.Crush has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.
    Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2011, 02:02 PM   #3206
Reaper16 Reaper16 is offline
Eat/Sleep/Procrastinate/Repeat
 
Reaper16's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dystopia
Casino cash: $10017397
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saulbadguy View Post
I don't get it.

I honestly want the Big XII to work. **** the criminals in the $EC. **** the slow, boring as shit Big 10. **** 'em all, i'd rather stay put and enjoy the historic rivalries we've had with the old Big 8 members, and keep beating the shit out of Texas in every sport.
I want it too, but that is not realistic. It makes me legitimately sad.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delano View Post
Reaper16's taste in beer, music, and literature are unmatched on this message board.
Posted via Mobile Device
Posts: 33,369
Reaper16 has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Reaper16 has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Reaper16 has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Reaper16 has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Reaper16 has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Reaper16 has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Reaper16 has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Reaper16 has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Reaper16 has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Reaper16 has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.Reaper16 has enough rep power to blowy ou to bits.
    Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2011, 02:02 PM   #3207
Reerun_KC Reerun_KC is offline
Rock Chalk Jayhawks! KU!!!
 
Reerun_KC's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2005
Casino cash: $8151160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saulbadguy View Post
I don't get it.

I honestly want the Big XII to work. **** the criminals in the $EC. **** the slow, boring as shit Big 10. **** 'em all, i'd rather stay put and enjoy the historic rivalries we've had with the old Big 8 members, and keep beating the shit out of Texas in every sport.
Because in the end the conference most likely will not survive thanks to Texas.

Why waste time here when you can go ahead and get established in a real BCS conference?
Posts: 934
Reerun_KC is obviously part of the inner Circle.Reerun_KC is obviously part of the inner Circle.Reerun_KC is obviously part of the inner Circle.Reerun_KC is obviously part of the inner Circle.Reerun_KC is obviously part of the inner Circle.Reerun_KC is obviously part of the inner Circle.Reerun_KC is obviously part of the inner Circle.Reerun_KC is obviously part of the inner Circle.Reerun_KC is obviously part of the inner Circle.Reerun_KC is obviously part of the inner Circle.Reerun_KC is obviously part of the inner Circle.
    Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2011, 02:03 PM   #3208
Saul Good Saul Good is offline
Quit your bullshit
 

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bored of winning
Casino cash: $10052799
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saulbadguy View Post
I don't get it.

I honestly want the Big XII to work. **** the criminals in the $EC. **** the slow, boring as shit Big 10. **** 'em all, i'd rather stay put and enjoy the historic rivalries we've had with the old Big 8 members, and keep beating the shit out of Texas in every sport.
Mizzou: Gone
Nebraska: Gone
Colorado: Gone

Oklahoma: One foot out the door
Oklahoma State: One foot out the door

It's you, Kansas, Iowa State, and a bunch of Texas schools. Hooray for tradition.
__________________
Today is not a good day to be a pussy.
Posts: 41,870
Saul Good is obviously part of the inner Circle.Saul Good is obviously part of the inner Circle.Saul Good is obviously part of the inner Circle.Saul Good is obviously part of the inner Circle.Saul Good is obviously part of the inner Circle.Saul Good is obviously part of the inner Circle.Saul Good is obviously part of the inner Circle.Saul Good is obviously part of the inner Circle.Saul Good is obviously part of the inner Circle.Saul Good is obviously part of the inner Circle.Saul Good is obviously part of the inner Circle.
    Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2011, 02:04 PM   #3209
Bowser Bowser is offline
sorta mod-ish
 
Bowser's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: KC North
Casino cash: $2861616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickedson View Post
KK should be good coming up here in a few.
I listened to his monologue, nothing more. You know what Keitzman sounded like? The fat bridesmaid that drunkenly laments at the end of the night why she can't get anyone to date her. It was pathetically embarrassing. My personal favorite part was where he was hyping up Mike DeArmond's quotes from St. John's show (GOLD), only to say after he played them that he didn't want to get too deep into what he said. I was almost embarrassed for him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReeTodd_KC View Post
Its funny to see all the butt hurt KU fans here.. so now were are down to posting pictures of peoples empty stadiums and talking attendace smack.

Jesus. MU is doing the right thing... Bailing on a failing conference is the RIGHT thing to do.

I am envy of MU and the SEC... Nothing the Big 12 does now will make a shit difference. It appears its a sinking ship full of junk.
Well spoken. Try and make Wickedson see the light, would you?
Posts: 101,595
Bowser is obviously part of the inner Circle.Bowser is obviously part of the inner Circle.Bowser is obviously part of the inner Circle.Bowser is obviously part of the inner Circle.Bowser is obviously part of the inner Circle.Bowser is obviously part of the inner Circle.Bowser is obviously part of the inner Circle.Bowser is obviously part of the inner Circle.Bowser is obviously part of the inner Circle.Bowser is obviously part of the inner Circle.Bowser is obviously part of the inner Circle.
    Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2011, 02:05 PM   #3210
Crush Crush is offline
Amateur Poster
 
Crush's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2004
Casino cash: $4707091
sptwri Mike DeArmond
Charles Bloom of the SEC just emailed that there will be no statement today out of the Southeastern Conference on the Missouri situation.
Posts: 15,298
Crush has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.Crush has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.Crush has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.Crush has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.Crush has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.Crush has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.Crush has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.Crush has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.Crush has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.Crush has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.Crush has parlayed a career as a truck driver into debt free trailer and jon boat ownership.
    Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:27 PM.


This is a test for a client's site.
Fort Worth Texas Process Servers
Covering Arlington, Fort Worth, Grand Prairie and surrounding communities.
Tarrant County, Texas and Johnson County, Texas.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.