Chiefs Vindication for Carl? - Page 13

Hammock Parties · 09-16-2008, 08:32 PM

Well written piece, IMO. He has a point.

http://kan.scout.com/2/791361.html

As everyone reading this already knows, the Kansas City Chiefs are currently mired in an eleven-game losing streak. The latest loss was particularly hard to swallow, coming at home against the hated Raiders. The same Oakland team, it should be noted, who came out in their season opener looking more like an NCAA Division II cupcake than a team capable of winning games in the NFL.

With those things in mind, you aren’t likely to find too many people looking for ways to compliment Kansas City Chiefs President and General Manager Carl Peterson these days. Brace yourselves, though, because in a roundabout way that’s exactly what I’m about to do.

You see, if the Chiefs’ recent decent into also-ran status has shown us anything, it’s that Peterson may be a lot smarter than anyone’s been giving him credit for.

What do I mean by that? For the answer, let’s jump back a few months. Shortly after the NFL Draft, WPI’s own Nick Athan conducted an interview with Chiefs’ owner Clark Hunt.

Here’s an excerpt from that piece:

Ultimately, Hunt knows that he’s serving the fans. Can they endure another losing season while this year’s draft class matures? Hunt thinks so.

"I do realize that in the short run, going with young players could have some shortcomings in terms of our performance on the field," he said. "But that’s OK. I think those guys will learn and our fans will enjoy watching those players develop."

"What I’ve come to learn is that the fans are actually really studied. They’re really smart. It must be because there’s 24-hour news on the National Football League. It’s Warpaint Illustrated and all the cable channels that cover the NFL and the constant media attention and the internet. Fans have become very smart in terms of how championship teams are built, and I sense they understand what we’re doing and will support it."

That certainly sounded good back in April. I imagine that a lot of the people who read those comments probably nodded in agreement and patted themselves on the back for being the smart, studied fans Clark said they were.

But now, just two games into the regular season, many of those same fans – no doubt spurred on by the pot-stirring of those like KC Star Columnist Jason Whitlock – are demanding that Hunt take action.

They want Peterson fired, they want Herm Edwards fired -- heck, they want both of them fired. Some even want Hunt to sell the team. They want whatever it takes in order to feel that change is on the horizon.

Unfortunately, it seems safe to say that after two more losses Hunt’s comments about the patience of the fanbase was a bit optimistic. Everyone knew the Chiefs would be a bad team this year. Sure, there were a few cockeyed optimists who were predicting K.C. to shock the world and finish 9-7, but most understood that considerable growing pains were to be expected. And, echoing Hunt’s remarks, most fans said all the right things about rebuilding during OTAs and training camp.

But as soon as the Chiefs began playing games again, something changed. It was even evident during the preseason. Perhaps some expected rebuilding to be a painless process that wouldn’t involve any sacrifice. Maybe they understood the Chiefs would lose some games, but figured every loss would be a moral victory in some way, and that rookies like Dorsey, Albert, and Flowers would all look like future Hall of Famers in the process.

Or maybe a lot of fans just never had the stomach for it to begin with.

“Not so”, they’ll undoubtedly say. “We were prepared for losing. But not like this. We weren’t prepared to lose because of the endless mistakes by Carl and the poor coaching from Herm. Get rid of ‘em!”

That sounds good and all – but I don’t buy it. Why not? Because this isn’t the first time I’ve heard that excuse.

Two years ago, the exact same cries were rising up from fans of the Green Bay Packers. The Pack went 4-12 in 2005, the team’s worst season in fourteen years. That offseason they brought in the unheralded Mike McCarthy as their new head coach and began rebuilding the team.

The Packers traded away one of their top players (Javon Walker) and ended up with twelve draft picks, several of whom saw significant action as rookies. With the league’s youngest roster, Green Bay began the next season 1-4, starting things off with an embarrassing 26-0 loss in their home opener against a hated rival.

Is this sounding familiar? It should. Don’t get me wrong, the Packers aren’t a perfect analogy to the Chiefs’ current situation – Green Bay, after all, already had a franchise QB in place with Brett Favre, and that alone makes a considerable difference.

But as you can see, there are enough similarities to make it an interesting comparison.

The Packers lost their first three home games that season, and their lone early victory came against the similarly winless Detroit Lions. Although they rebounded from their poor start and nearly got back to .500, they ultimately lost eight of their first twelve games and were sitting at 4-8 in early December.

When the team was slow out of the gate, outraged Packers fans wasted little time in demanding that McCarthy and G.M. Ted Thompson be fired. The same cries for change referenced in that column continued throughout the season as the Packers struggled, suffering lopsided defeats at the hands of the Eagles, Patriots, Bills, and Jets.

But the Packers pulled together in the final month and won four straight games to finish 8-8. A year later, still sticking to youth, Green Bay made their conference title game.

Will Kansas City finish 8-8 this season? Will they be a Super Bowl contender next year? Probably not.

As mentioned, the Chiefs don’t have a QB, and they also don’t have the benefit of playing in the weaker NFC. But the point of the comparison, as Packers’ fans learned, is that it’s foolish to judge so quickly.

Chiefs’ fans can say they’re not being impatient with losses, that it’s the coaching and management they’re upset with. It just rings hollow. Any Packers fan who signed a petition to fire McCarthy and Thompson during the 2006 season would probably admit today that they overreacted. They recognize that their young team started to improve as they got more experience and developed chemistry with one another.

No matter how the angry masses in Kansas City might want to justify their reactions, the simple truth is this: anyone who’s demanding sweeping changes in the Chiefs’ organization because a bad team played a bad game on Sunday wasn’t prepared for what was coming this season.

For that matter, anyone who wanted to see 35-year old Damon Huard trot back onto the field Sunday, rather than see 24-year old Tyler Thigpen get his opportunity, wasn’t prepared for what was coming this season. And most of all, anyone who’s not willing to wait more than two games before declaring the rebuilding effort a failure wasn’t prepared for what was coming this season.

So, no, I’m not buying that the reactions are all about Herm and Carl. And you know who else isn’t buying it? Carl Peterson.

After all, judging by the reactions we’re seeing, Peterson had everyone pegged a long time ago. He’s been criticized by millions, myself included, for the strategy he’s executed all these years. Stock up on free agents every few seasons, never bother to develop a young quarterback when you can always acquire a veteran with experience, and do everything else possible to shoot for a season of eight or nine wins. And if you can make the playoffs, hey, anything can happen once you’re in the tournament.

That’s been the Carl Peterson way, and the results speak for themselves. Sure, the Chiefs haven’t won a playoff game since Joe Montana was under center, but Arrowhead has still been filled to capacity year after year. Every December, no matter how mediocre the Chiefs were, the seats were always full and the stadium was always loud as long as there was some outside chance at a playoff berth.

Contrast that to this year, when even after a highly-praised draft and one of those “moral victories” against the New England juggernaut, the openly rebuilding Chiefs – finally trying to build a championship team the right way – struggled to sell out their home opener against their biggest rival.

While Hunt had reason for his view of how the fans would react to a rebuilding season, maybe Peterson’s view was a little more in line with reality. Perhaps he’s been more tuned-in to the fans than anyone ever thought he was. Maybe he knew that Chiefs fans just aren’t cut out for this rebuilding stuff.

I just hope he’s not the sort of guy to say “I told you so."

FringeNC · 09-17-2008, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bowser

There's an inherent problem with the whole situation -

How can a team rebuild when the guy pulling the strings is the same guy that let them get into the shape they're in now?

Good point -- good GMs don't rebuild, they reload. One year at 6-10 maybe, but that's about it.

Fish · 09-17-2008, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by donkhater

Without going through the five pages worth of replies to this inane article, I'll throw my two cents in, which has undoubtedly been said before.

They are rebuilding. Fine. I get it. They aren't going to win many games and they will be inconsistent from week to week. I get it. I will allow the PLAYERS to perform like they are still maturing and developing.

But answer me this:

How in the hell is Herm or Carl or anyone going to develop a QB if all the game plan calls for is running the ball up the center's a$$?

The QB throws 15 passes a game in situations that the defense knows he going to throw and these idiots wonder why the QB isn't developing as fast as they thought he would.

Give the QB and the whole team the whole playbook. Coach aggressively and your team will play aggressively. The QB will make mistakes. He'll likely throw interceptions. Chances are he may even throw a few really good passes and make big plays, too.

What the hell is Herm scared of? Losing the game? They probably will, but haven't they been doing that for the last 11 F#$$%^^^G games????

At least you'd give the fans a sense that you are at least TRYING to win.

I've seen the attitude spreading now that "I get the rebuild, I accept that and I expect losses, but I didn't expect to lose like this! Why are we running the ball and not throwing more?"

Well it's tough to have it both ways at this point. Even though I would love to see it happen and have them go all out, I can see why it hasn't happened yet.

They likely feel that they can't just air it out, because the OLine won't give them enough time to do anything but a quick 3 step drop. And the QB is very inexperienced, so you can't really expect him to start lighting up a vertical game effectively. But my answer to that is "who cares?" We suck anyway. Obviously somebody still has some slight pull in wanting to win games opposed to sucking it up and getting experience regardless.... They're still trying to sell tickets you know..

But that said, I think they will be forced to throw caution to the wind eventually when this current strategy keeps failing. The problem is, there's a good chance that they'll look like equally incompetent boobs when they do try more of a downfield game and all they do is throw INTs, miss receivers, and go 3 and out while taking about 12 seconds off the playclock. Then the D gets worn out, and they look like crap on both sides of the ball. I can see how it would be easy to create one big shitty cycle of fail that affects all areas of the game if they don't play just a little bit conservatively.

beach tribe · 09-17-2008, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkman

You know why you got so far under his skin, don't you?

It's because

Your and Idiot.

QFT

donkhater · 09-17-2008, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KC Fish

I've seen the attitude spreading now that "I get the rebuild, I accept that and I expect losses, but I didn't expect to lose like this! Why are we running the ball and not throwing more?"

Well it's tough to have it both ways at this point. Even though I would love to see it happen and have them go all out, I can see why it hasn't happened yet.

They likely feel that they can't just air it out, because the OLine won't give them enough time to do anything but a quick 3 step drop. And the QB is very inexperienced, so you can't really expect him to start lighting up a vertical game effectively. But my answer to that is "who cares?" We suck anyway. Obviously somebody still has some slight pull in wanting to win games opposed to sucking it up and getting experience regardless.... They're still trying to sell tickets you know..

But that said, I think they will be forced to throw caution to the wind eventually when this current strategy keeps failing. The problem is, there's a good chance that they'll look like equally incompetent boobs when they do try more of a downfield game and all they do is throw INTs, miss receivers, and go 3 and out while taking about 12 seconds off the playclock. Then the D gets worn out, and they look like crap on both sides of the ball. I can see how it would be easy to create one big shitty cycle of fail that affects all areas of the game if they don't play just a little bit conservatively.

OK, but what happened to the roll outs and the bootlegs and misdirection running plays we saw in the preseason? Wasn't that to keep the QB moving? the defense guessing? All I've seen so far is the same crappy offense they ran last season.

Mecca · 09-17-2008, 06:27 PM

Ok safeties make tackles even on good defenses, take Bob Sanders or Ed Reed for example...Dawkins is getting old and isn't the player he use to be also so that's why he looks like he does.

Here's what I think of those players...Hali is a rotational DE a 3. Page is a 3rd safety the guy who comes in in the nickel package that is 3 safeties and not 3 corners big nickel if you will. Pollard should be a 4th safety, a guy who plays special teams, maybe plays some safety in obvious run downs or some LB in a Nickel situation, they are role players.

And if you have good safeties and LB's Pollard becomes nothing more than a special teams player with Page taking the big nickel role since he's ok in coverage.

shaneo69 · 09-17-2008, 07:31 PM

So the Packers went 4-12, fired their coach, and McCarthy came in and went 8-8, then made it to the conference championship in his 2nd year, and is now 2-0 with a brand new inexperienced QB.

Herm inherited a 8-8 team, went to 10-6, then 4-12, and now 0-2.

One guy turned it around, and the other guy drove it into the ground.

There's no comparison.

Spott · 09-17-2008, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaneo69

So the Packers went 4-12, fired their coach, and McCarthy came in and went 8-8, then made it to the conference championship in his 2nd year, and is now 2-0 with a brand new inexperienced QB.

Herm inherited a 8-8 team, went to 10-6, then 4-12, and now 0-2.

One guy turned it around, and the other guy drove it into the ground.

There's no comparison.

Herm inherited a 10-6 team, then went 9-7 and 4-12.

**Tribal Warfare** · 09-17-2008, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaneo69

So the Packers went 4-12, fired their coach, and McCarthy came in and went 8-8, then made it to the conference championship in his 2nd year, and is now 2-0 with a brand new inexperienced QB.

Herm inherited a 10-6 team, went to 9-7, then 4-12, and now 0-2.

One guy turned it around, and the other guy drove it into the ground.

There's no comparison.

FYP

WilliamTheIrish · 09-17-2008, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2

You think it is a whiff? I don't.

1 20 20 Tamba Hali DE Penn State
** A good LDE. He's being played out of position this year. Bad coaching/GM move with Allen and forcing Hali to play the right side.

2 2 22 54 Bernard Pollard DB Purdue
** Not a great safety, but I think he's good and he is still improving.

3 3 21 85 Brodie Croyle QB Alabama
** at this point a bust because of injury problems.

4 5 22 154 Marcus Maxey DB Miami (FL)
** bust

5 6 17 186 Tre' Stallings G Mississippi
** bust

6 6 21 190 Jeff Webb WR San Diego State
** underperforming this year.

7 7 20 228 Jarrad Page DB UCLA
** excellent pick for a 7th rounder.

Wow. That is one big stinkfest of a draft.

**RNR** · 09-17-2008, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claythan

People have unrealistic expectations.

And, like I said, they will grasp at ANY straw to discredit Herm. Page was drafted in the 7th round. He was an absolute gem, and he is Antonio Gates' kryptonite. That alone makes him a success as an NFL player.

You were the anti germ guy or something like that right? Now some lame ass website lets you play writer and it is run by a ass kissing idiot so now you defend the same guy you used to trash. No surpise I guess

Hammock Parties · 09-17-2008, 08:27 PM

Looks like you're wrong again you inbred jackass.

**RNR** · 09-17-2008, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claythan

Looks like you're wrong again you inbred jackass.

Lets start a treaty and if I ever break it I will root for a different team

Deal?

Hammock Parties · 09-17-2008, 08:40 PM

I don't really care.

**RNR** · 09-17-2008, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Claythan

I don't really care.

That is just an ugly and hurtful reply. So is that a no to the treaty?

Hammock Parties · 09-17-2008, 08:44 PM

Why would I give a shit about what team you root for?

09-16-2008, 08:32 PM
Hammock Parties I'll be back. Join Date: Nov 2002 Casino cash: $1060478	Vindication for Carl? Well written piece, IMO. He has a point. http://kan.scout.com/2/791361.html As everyone reading this already knows, the Kansas City Chiefs are currently mired in an eleven-game losing streak. The latest loss was particularly hard to swallow, coming at home against the hated Raiders. The same Oakland team, it should be noted, who came out in their season opener looking more like an NCAA Division II cupcake than a team capable of winning games in the NFL. With those things in mind, you aren’t likely to find too many people looking for ways to compliment Kansas City Chiefs President and General Manager Carl Peterson these days. Brace yourselves, though, because in a roundabout way that’s exactly what I’m about to do. You see, if the Chiefs’ recent decent into also-ran status has shown us anything, it’s that Peterson may be a lot smarter than anyone’s been giving him credit for. What do I mean by that? For the answer, let’s jump back a few months. Shortly after the NFL Draft, WPI’s own Nick Athan conducted an interview with Chiefs’ owner Clark Hunt. Here’s an excerpt from that piece: Ultimately, Hunt knows that he’s serving the fans. Can they endure another losing season while this year’s draft class matures? Hunt thinks so. "I do realize that in the short run, going with young players could have some shortcomings in terms of our performance on the field," he said. "But that’s OK. I think those guys will learn and our fans will enjoy watching those players develop." "What I’ve come to learn is that the fans are actually really studied. They’re really smart. It must be because there’s 24-hour news on the National Football League. It’s Warpaint Illustrated and all the cable channels that cover the NFL and the constant media attention and the internet. Fans have become very smart in terms of how championship teams are built, and I sense they understand what we’re doing and will support it." That certainly sounded good back in April. I imagine that a lot of the people who read those comments probably nodded in agreement and patted themselves on the back for being the smart, studied fans Clark said they were. But now, just two games into the regular season, many of those same fans – no doubt spurred on by the pot-stirring of those like KC Star Columnist Jason Whitlock – are demanding that Hunt take action. They want Peterson fired, they want Herm Edwards fired -- heck, they want both of them fired. Some even want Hunt to sell the team. They want whatever it takes in order to feel that change is on the horizon. Unfortunately, it seems safe to say that after two more losses Hunt’s comments about the patience of the fanbase was a bit optimistic. Everyone knew the Chiefs would be a bad team this year. Sure, there were a few cockeyed optimists who were predicting K.C. to shock the world and finish 9-7, but most understood that considerable growing pains were to be expected. And, echoing Hunt’s remarks, most fans said all the right things about rebuilding during OTAs and training camp. But as soon as the Chiefs began playing games again, something changed. It was even evident during the preseason. Perhaps some expected rebuilding to be a painless process that wouldn’t involve any sacrifice. Maybe they understood the Chiefs would lose some games, but figured every loss would be a moral victory in some way, and that rookies like Dorsey, Albert, and Flowers would all look like future Hall of Famers in the process. Or maybe a lot of fans just never had the stomach for it to begin with. “Not so”, they’ll undoubtedly say. “We were prepared for losing. But not like this. We weren’t prepared to lose because of the endless mistakes by Carl and the poor coaching from Herm. Get rid of ‘em!” That sounds good and all – but I don’t buy it. Why not? Because this isn’t the first time I’ve heard that excuse. Two years ago, the exact same cries were rising up from fans of the Green Bay Packers. The Pack went 4-12 in 2005, the team’s worst season in fourteen years. That offseason they brought in the unheralded Mike McCarthy as their new head coach and began rebuilding the team. The Packers traded away one of their top players (Javon Walker) and ended up with twelve draft picks, several of whom saw significant action as rookies. With the league’s youngest roster, Green Bay began the next season 1-4, starting things off with an embarrassing 26-0 loss in their home opener against a hated rival. Is this sounding familiar? It should. Don’t get me wrong, the Packers aren’t a perfect analogy to the Chiefs’ current situation – Green Bay, after all, already had a franchise QB in place with Brett Favre, and that alone makes a considerable difference. But as you can see, there are enough similarities to make it an interesting comparison. The Packers lost their first three home games that season, and their lone early victory came against the similarly winless Detroit Lions. Although they rebounded from their poor start and nearly got back to .500, they ultimately lost eight of their first twelve games and were sitting at 4-8 in early December. When the team was slow out of the gate, outraged Packers fans wasted little time in demanding that McCarthy and G.M. Ted Thompson be fired. The same cries for change referenced in that column continued throughout the season as the Packers struggled, suffering lopsided defeats at the hands of the Eagles, Patriots, Bills, and Jets. But the Packers pulled together in the final month and won four straight games to finish 8-8. A year later, still sticking to youth, Green Bay made their conference title game. Will Kansas City finish 8-8 this season? Will they be a Super Bowl contender next year? Probably not. As mentioned, the Chiefs don’t have a QB, and they also don’t have the benefit of playing in the weaker NFC. But the point of the comparison, as Packers’ fans learned, is that it’s foolish to judge so quickly. Chiefs’ fans can say they’re not being impatient with losses, that it’s the coaching and management they’re upset with. It just rings hollow. Any Packers fan who signed a petition to fire McCarthy and Thompson during the 2006 season would probably admit today that they overreacted. They recognize that their young team started to improve as they got more experience and developed chemistry with one another. No matter how the angry masses in Kansas City might want to justify their reactions, the simple truth is this: anyone who’s demanding sweeping changes in the Chiefs’ organization because a bad team played a bad game on Sunday wasn’t prepared for what was coming this season. For that matter, anyone who wanted to see 35-year old Damon Huard trot back onto the field Sunday, rather than see 24-year old Tyler Thigpen get his opportunity, wasn’t prepared for what was coming this season. And most of all, anyone who’s not willing to wait more than two games before declaring the rebuilding effort a failure wasn’t prepared for what was coming this season. So, no, I’m not buying that the reactions are all about Herm and Carl. And you know who else isn’t buying it? Carl Peterson. After all, judging by the reactions we’re seeing, Peterson had everyone pegged a long time ago. He’s been criticized by millions, myself included, for the strategy he’s executed all these years. Stock up on free agents every few seasons, never bother to develop a young quarterback when you can always acquire a veteran with experience, and do everything else possible to shoot for a season of eight or nine wins. And if you can make the playoffs, hey, anything can happen once you’re in the tournament. That’s been the Carl Peterson way, and the results speak for themselves. Sure, the Chiefs haven’t won a playoff game since Joe Montana was under center, but Arrowhead has still been filled to capacity year after year. Every December, no matter how mediocre the Chiefs were, the seats were always full and the stadium was always loud as long as there was some outside chance at a playoff berth. Contrast that to this year, when even after a highly-praised draft and one of those “moral victories” against the New England juggernaut, the openly rebuilding Chiefs – finally trying to build a championship team the right way – struggled to sell out their home opener against their biggest rival. While Hunt had reason for his view of how the fans would react to a rebuilding season, maybe Peterson’s view was a little more in line with reality. Perhaps he’s been more tuned-in to the fans than anyone ever thought he was. Maybe he knew that Chiefs fans just aren’t cut out for this rebuilding stuff. I just hope he’s not the sort of guy to say “I told you so."
Posts: 296,648

09-17-2008, 06:27 PM	#185
Mecca Hockey Town Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Kansas City, Missouri Casino cash: $-462950	Ok safeties make tackles even on good defenses, take Bob Sanders or Ed Reed for example...Dawkins is getting old and isn't the player he use to be also so that's why he looks like he does. Here's what I think of those players...Hali is a rotational DE a 3. Page is a 3rd safety the guy who comes in in the nickel package that is 3 safeties and not 3 corners big nickel if you will. Pollard should be a 4th safety, a guy who plays special teams, maybe plays some safety in obvious run downs or some LB in a Nickel situation, they are role players. And if you have good safeties and LB's Pollard becomes nothing more than a special teams player with Page taking the big nickel role since he's ok in coverage.
Posts: 115,241

09-17-2008, 07:31 PM	#186
shaneo69 Smug Weasel Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Bleachers at Busch Casino cash: $10004900	So the Packers went 4-12, fired their coach, and McCarthy came in and went 8-8, then made it to the conference championship in his 2nd year, and is now 2-0 with a brand new inexperienced QB. Herm inherited a 8-8 team, went to 10-6, then 4-12, and now 0-2. One guy turned it around, and the other guy drove it into the ground. There's no comparison. __________________ "I like Chiefs president Carl Peterson. I respect his business savvy. I envy his management skills and his penchant never to be driven by the whims of popularity. I admire his willingness to take responsibility for decisions that don’t work out the way he would have wanted." - Rufus, from KCChiefs.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 4,910

09-17-2008, 08:27 PM	#191
Hammock Parties I'll be back. Join Date: Nov 2002 Casino cash: $1060478	Looks like you're wrong again you inbred jackass.
Posts: 296,648

09-17-2008, 08:40 PM	#193
Hammock Parties I'll be back. Join Date: Nov 2002 Casino cash: $1060478	I don't really care.
Posts: 296,648

09-17-2008, 08:44 PM	#195
Hammock Parties I'll be back. Join Date: Nov 2002 Casino cash: $1060478	Why would I give a shit about what team you root for?
Posts: 296,648