Investing megathread extravaganza

[DaFace]

A place to talk about investing stuff.

[eDave]

Originally Posted by ChiliConCarnage

Also, having a mix of traditional and Roth money in retirement gives you more flexibility in terms of tax avoidance in retirement. At least, for average joe's, I think this normally makes sense.

When you have a moment, would you please expand on this?

Thank you.

[lewdog]

Originally Posted by eDave

When you have a moment, would you please expand on this?

Thank you.

You don’t want all your income in retirement to come from taxable investments such as 401k or IRAs.

That’s why it’s important for many to contribute to a ROTH. It’s not counted as income in retirement, thus lowering your tax bracket for many.

[Buehler445]

Originally Posted by lewdog

You don’t want all your income in retirement to come from taxable investments such as 401k or IRAs.

That’s why it’s important for many to contribute to a ROTH. It’s not counted as income in retirement, thus lowering your tax bracket for many.

Eh. That’s a little wonky.

401s and traditional IRAs have some theoretical advantages.

You’ve paid tax on contributions to ROTH where as 401s and traditional IRAs are not taxed at contribution. In theory your tax rate will be lower in retirement so there may benefits there. Where the ROTH shines is the gains aren’t taxed.

So the gamble you’re taking is the tax on the basis at the time of contribution is less than the tax on the basis and gain at the time of distribution.

Typically it is but is still a gamble.

[ChiliConCarnage]

Originally Posted by eDave

When you have a moment, would you please expand on this?

Thank you.

Sure, to really simplify it, if you have 400k in pre-tax/traditional retirement savings. The Fed has a 15% tax rate up to 32k and 23.5% from 32 to 62k.

If you need 45k to live this year, you'll need to pay 13k at the 23.5% rate.

If you have 300k pre-tax and 100k roth, you can use 32k pre-tax and pay 15% then withdraw 13k from your post tax roth money and avoid the higher tax rate.

This can all get into some talk about whether your taxes will be higher now or in retirement in general. I think for regular people this is incredibly hard to answer and that almost everyone should have some both pre and post tax funds for flexibility.

edit: also, these numbers don't make sense lol. It's just the idea that you can avoid higher tax brackets lol

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

Anybody have any thoughts on (IQ) .It's an ipo came out recently ,supposed to be the Chinese version of Netflix. Could it do what NFLX has done ? This would be ground zero if so.

It's at 17.41 right now

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

Well, I'm in at 17.35

Drop Box is doing well at 32.32

[lewdog]

I don’t like IPOs. Over 90% tank and aren’t worth original prices.

[Cornstock]

With the current tax rate dropping a bit, and taking into account the current political climate, I think the current tax rate is the lowest we'll see for the rest of our lives.

This is pure conjecture of course. But if that is true, it would be advantageous to max out your Roth to avoid paying taxes at a higher rate in retirement. There are nuances to this but I don't feel like getting into that now.

Moral of the story: unless you're reduced to eating ramen until she gets a job, try to max out contributions to a Roth, and make sure you are getting the full max in your 401k.

[Hog's Gone Fishin]

Originally Posted by lewdog

I don’t like IPOs. Over 90% tank and aren’t worth original prices.

Here's a list of the last 100 IPO's to come out. According to this list the number in negative territory is 43%

https://www.iposcoop.com/last-100-ipos/

[lewdog]

Originally Posted by Hog's Gone Fishin

Here's a list of the last 100 IPO's to come out. According to this list the number in negative territory is 43%

https://www.iposcoop.com/last-100-ipos/

Sounds about right since that list goes back a whopping 5 months.

Go out a few years, 2-5, and my 90% negative number is more accurate. No thanks on taking on IPOs in the first few months unless you like gambling (which I sometimes do!).

[petegz28]

Originally Posted by lewdog

Sounds about right since that list goes back a whopping 5 months.

Go out a few years, 2-5, and my 90% negative number is more accurate. No thanks on taking on IPOs in the first few months unless you like gambling (which I sometimes do!).

IPO's are straight up gambling unless you get in prior to the stock actually going public. Stick to the fundamentals, Lew. You got the right idea. Learn to read the charts.

Let me give you .05 worth of free advice. Go get a book called "Technical Analysis of the Futures Market" by John Murphy. Don't shy away because it says futures. 100% of the book applies to stocks as well. It is the Bible of TA. You will look at stock charts in a totally new light and it will open up an entirely new perspective to your analysis.

[petegz28]

Originally Posted by Cornstock

With the current tax rate dropping a bit, and taking into account the current political climate, I think the current tax rate is the lowest we'll see for the rest of our lives.

This is pure conjecture of course. But if that is true, it would be advantageous to max out your Roth to avoid paying taxes at a higher rate in retirement. There are nuances to this but I don't feel like getting into that now.

Moral of the story: unless you're reduced to eating ramen until she gets a job, try to max out contributions to a Roth, and make sure you are getting the full max in your 401k.

It's the lowest you'll see until the Democrats eventually regain control. Do not ever think the rates now are what they will be forever.

[petegz28]

Originally Posted by Buehler445

Eh. That’s a little wonky.

401s and traditional IRAs have some theoretical advantages.

You’ve paid tax on contributions to ROTH where as 401s and traditional IRAs are not taxed at contribution. In theory your tax rate will be lower in retirement so there may benefits there. Where the ROTH shines is the gains aren’t taxed.

So the gamble you’re taking is the tax on the basis at the time of contribution is less than the tax on the basis and gain at the time of distribution.

Typically it is but is still a gamble.

You left out some significant parts..

A) You can withdraw your capital from a ROTH penalty free prior to 59 1/2 if you need the money

B) If you intend to retire and a similar income level that you currently have then you cannot automatically assume you will have a lower tax bracket if you are pulling all of your income from taxable retirement savings such as a 401k or a Traditional IRA


And a notable correction to what you said about where a ROTH "shines". You are not accurate. A ROTH shines in the fact that what you withdraw is not taxed. A Traditional IRA or 401k does not have its "gains" taxed at all. But you will pay tax at the ordinary income level when you do withdraw from them.

[Buehler445]

Originally Posted by petegz28

You left out some significant parts..

A) You can withdraw your capital from a ROTH penalty free prior to 59 1/2 if you need the money

Right, but that's not what Lew was talking about. He was talking about distributions not being taxed.

Originally Posted by petegz28

B) If you intend to retire and a similar income level that you currently have then you cannot automatically assume you will have a lower tax bracket if you are pulling all of your income from taxable retirement savings such as a 401k or a Traditional IRA

You're right, you can't automatically assume that, which is why I said "In theory".

Originally Posted by petegz28

And a notable correction to what you said about where a ROTH "shines". You are not accurate. A ROTH shines in the fact that what you withdraw is not taxed. A Traditional IRA or 401k does not have its "gains" taxed at all. But you will pay tax at the ordinary income level when you do withdraw from them.

Wrong-o dude. I have no interest in getting in a pissing match on a financial thread, but what I've said is accurate.

What you withdraw out of a ROTH is not taxed. What you withdraw out of a Traditional IRA/401K is taxed upon withdrawl. What you withdraw consists of:

ROTH =
Basis (what you contributed after tax meaning you paid tax on it)
+Gain(Not taxed)

401K/IRA =
Basis (contributed pretax, meaning it wasn't taxed, but is taxed upon withdrawl)
+Gain (taxed on withdrawl)

My statement was accurate - gains are not taxed. So was your's. Lew's point is typically correct also, having investments in both ROTH and Traditional should net you a lower tax bracket.

But for most folks, what is really appealing about a ROTH is that the gains aren't taxed. Especially if they are younger and have more time for gains to compound.

[petegz28]

Originally Posted by Buehler445

Right, but that's not what Lew was talking about. He was talking about distributions not being taxed.





You're right, you can't automatically assume that, which is why I said "In theory".




Wrong-o dude. I have no interest in getting in a pissing match on a financial thread, but what I've said is accurate.

What you withdraw out of a ROTH is not taxed. What you withdraw out of a Traditional IRA/401K is taxed upon withdrawl. What you withdraw consists of:

ROTH =
Basis (what you contributed after tax meaning you paid tax on it)
+Gain(Not taxed)

401K/IRA =
Basis (contributed pretax, meaning it wasn't taxed, but is taxed upon withdrawl)
+Gain (taxed on withdrawl)

My statement was accurate - gains are not taxed. So was your's. Lew's point is typically correct also, having investments in both ROTH and Traditional should net you a lower tax bracket.

But for most folks, what is really appealing about a ROTH is that the gains aren't taxed. Especially if they are younger and have more time for gains to compound.

I never said a ROTH was taxed. In fact I specifically said only a Traditional and 401k were taxed.