Joe "Cool" and being elite? Yeah, no.

[mr. tegu]

I admit I realize I have been overestimating him like many others. He is quite good but elite he is not and he definitely hasn't earned his "cool" moniker. And I have heard multiple pundits now say, even after yesterday he is a better QB than Mahomes, but Mahomes is the better player. Talk about moving the goalposts to fit your narrative.

I will give him credit for the Brady comparison though as he has absolutely been carried by his defense and luck like Brady was in his earlier years in winning playoff games. But Burrow isn't as clutch as Brady was even back then.

And for those who think he is even close to Mahomes:

Burrow 0 times 30 point postseason games to Mahomes 8
300 yard games is 1 to 7
TD drives in fourth quarter is a whopping 0 to 14

Good old Nick Wright has more in the video but here is a picture with the most relevant part of Burrow's fourth quarter stats in the postseason. It's remarkable the Bengals have won any games honestly in the postseason.

[T-post Tom]

Josh Allen has the most bruises. That has to account for something. Right?

https://www.si.com/nfl/bills/news/bu...ses-super-bowl

[Rams Fan]

Originally Posted by mr. tegu

Had Matt Ryan reached elite status going into 2017?

Was Rivers ever elite?

Rivers/Ryan had Brady, Peyton, Rodgers, Favre, Brees, Warner, Roethlisberger overlap a decent part of their careers as well as guys like Eli, Russ. Different set of circumstances.

But I think Ryan and Rivers both are HoFers if Eli is considered one.

[mr. tegu]

Originally Posted by PAChiefsGuy

I don't see how you can't say the guy isn't elite. I mean who would you put above him other than Mahomes?

He didn't have the best game last Sunday but the Bengals still barely lost and he was playing with a shit offensive line.

It’s easy. He hasn’t performed in the post season, especially when it matters most. This keeps getting ignored but when discussing elite, for me, to meet that you elevate the team and do everything reasonably possible to get wins in the post season which is a huge factor (among others), otherwise you are a SB winner getting dragged to championships like early Brady, Dilfer, etc. but not elite, or you are a regular season stat builder who fails in crunch time in the playoffs, not elite. Heck if you consistently play only average in the playoffs but have some hardware to point to along with sustained huge regular season I can say that guy is elite as well.

So far Burrow has good to great regular seasons but average at best post seasons and even worst 4th quarters in the playoffs. With such a brief career thus far and lacking big post season moments or hardware he just hasn’t earned elite yet.

Being a top regular season QB in a given small period is not the same as being elite. Any number of guys can be a top QB in given year or brief period and have a good post season run. Elite takes some combination of more time with regular season numbers, post season success for team, QB performance, and hardware.

[Rams Fan]

Originally Posted by mr. tegu

It’s easy. He hasn’t performed in the post season, especially when it matters most.

This is simply not true.

He played great in Buffalo this year. And fine in KC last year and this year and OK last year in Tennessee. He won 2 road games last year in the POs(1 against the #1 seed, the other in KC) and another PO road game against Buffalo.

Mahomes>Burrow but the narrative you're pushing is total bullshit.

He's had 2 deep PO runs now and isn't some flash in the pan like Foles was.

He was sacked 7 times vs the Rams, 9 vs the Titans. He has a dog shit OL with great offensive weapons (arguably the best in the league).

[tredadda]

Originally Posted by Rams Fan

Rivers/Ryan had Brady, Peyton, Rodgers, Favre, Brees, Warner, Roethlisberger overlap a decent part of their careers as well as guys like Eli, Russ. Different set of circumstances.

But I think Ryan and Rivers both are HoFers if Eli is considered one.

Eli has two SB rings. Ryan and Rivers have one SB appearance. Not a good comparison.

[Rams Fan]

Originally Posted by tredadda

Eli has two SB rings. Ryan and Rivers have one SB appearance. Not a good comparison.

Eli has a .500 record as a starter and his stats overall are mid.

He benefited from a legendary performance from his defense in 2007.

Ryan also has a MVP.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by Rams Fan

This is simply not true.

He played great in Buffalo this year. And fine in KC last year and this year and OK last year in Tennessee. He won 2 road games last year in the POs(1 against the #1 seed, the other in KC) and another PO road game against Buffalo.

Mahomes>Burrow but the narrative you're pushing is total bullshit.

He's had 2 deep PO runs now and isn't some flash in the pan like Foles was.

He was sacked 7 times vs the Rams, 9 vs the Titans. He has a dog shit OL with great offensive weapons (arguably the best in the league).

Meant to thumbs up

[mr. tegu]

Originally Posted by Rams Fan

This is simply not true.

He played great in Buffalo this year. And fine in KC last year and this year and OK last year in Tennessee. He won 2 road games last year in the POs(1 against the #1 seed, the other in KC) and another PO road game against Buffalo.

Mahomes>Burrow but the narrative you're pushing is total bullshit.

He's had 2 deep PO runs now and isn't some flash in the pan like Foles was.

He was sacked 7 times vs the Rams, 9 vs the Titans. He has a dog shit OL with great offensive weapons (arguably the best in the league).

One 300 yard game. 0 fourth quarter passing TDs. 0 30 point games. Huge drop in rating in 4th quarter. 0 drives in fourth quarter leading to TDs. There is no debating his defense has carried him in the playoffs.

[mr. tegu]

Originally Posted by Rams Fan

Rivers/Ryan had Brady, Peyton, Rodgers, Favre, Brees, Warner, Roethlisberger overlap a decent part of their careers as well as guys like Eli, Russ. Different set of circumstances.

But I think Ryan and Rivers both are HoFers if Eli is considered one.

So are they elite or not? If so, why? If not, why not?

[tredadda]

Originally Posted by Rams Fan

Eli has a .500 record as a starter and his stats overall are mid.

He benefited from a legendary performance from his defense in 2007.

Ryan also has a MVP.

Ryan does have a MVP and Eli does not. But Eli has two SB rings and two SB MVPs. More than Ryan and Rivers combined. Ryan will also be remembered for the epic 28-3 collapse. Ryan is 0-1 against Brady in SBs. Eli is 2-0. Again not a good comparison.

[DRM08]

Originally Posted by Rams Fan

This is simply not true.

He played great in Buffalo this year. And fine in KC last year and this year and OK last year in Tennessee. He won 2 road games last year in the POs(1 against the #1 seed, the other in KC) and another PO road game against Buffalo.

Mahomes>Burrow but the narrative you're pushing is total bullshit.

He's had 2 deep PO runs now and isn't some flash in the pan like Foles was.

He was sacked 7 times vs the Rams, 9 vs the Titans. He has a dog shit OL with great offensive weapons (arguably the best in the league).

I think Burrow is great, but you are not telling the full story here. Burrow’s defense has played a massive role in helping win games or even lose close games instead of getting blown out. Cincy defense has never given up more than 23 points in 7 playoff games the last two seasons. They’ve given up less than 19 points per game in the playoffs. That is extremely helpful to any QB.

Allen’s defense has given up 36 points per game in Buffalo’s last 3 playoff losses. Mahomes’ defense has given up an average of 32 points per game in 3 Playoff losses. Last year Patrick needed 36 just to make it to overtime with Buffalo. He needed 31 just to make it to overtime against the Patriots 4 years ago. Burrow has not dealt with this scenario in his career so far. I am curious to see how long Cincy’s defense can keep playing at such a strong level.

[wachashi]

He throws the best back shoulder / sideline ball in the game. Puts defenses in a bind when he can connect on those so consistently.

[DRM08]

Originally Posted by wachashi

He throws the best back shoulder / sideline ball in the game. Puts defenses in a bind when he can connect on those so consistently.

Burrow is extremely accurate, that's for sure.

[PAChiefsGuy]

Originally Posted by mr. tegu

It’s easy. He hasn’t performed in the post season, especially when it matters most. This keeps getting ignored but when discussing elite, for me, to meet that you elevate the team and do everything reasonably possible to get wins in the post season which is a huge factor (among others), otherwise you are a SB winner getting dragged to championships like early Brady, Dilfer, etc. but not elite, or you are a regular season stat builder who fails in crunch time in the playoffs, not elite. Heck if you consistently play only average in the playoffs but have some hardware to point to along with sustained huge regular season I can say that guy is elite as well.

So far Burrow has good to great regular seasons but average at best post seasons and even worst 4th quarters in the playoffs. With such a brief career thus far and lacking big post season moments or hardware he just hasn’t earned elite yet.

Being a top regular season QB in a given small period is not the same as being elite. Any number of guys can be a top QB in given year or brief period and have a good post season run. Elite takes some combination of more time with regular season numbers, post season success for team, QB performance, and hardware.

How can you say he hasn't performed in the postseason when he got the Bengals to the SB and helped them comeback from a 21-3 deficit at Arrowhead stadium? I mean come on lets give the guy some credit. That's not easy to do.

I think he's a really good QB and I think Bengals will definitely be back. A QBs job is to win the game by scoring more points than the other team not get fantasy football stats. His stats aren't even that bad.

As far as the 'elite' well that word does get thrown around a lot and there doesn't seem to be any clear cut definition of what an elite QB actually is. However if you take the webester definition

e·lite
[əˈlēt, āˈlēt]
NOUN
a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society:

So once again who would you put over Burrow? Right now -- I'd say he is elite. Only QB I'd take over him would be Mahomes.

[Rams Fan]

Originally Posted by DRM08

I think Burrow is great, but you are not telling the full story here. Burrow’s defense has played a massive role in helping win games or even lose close games instead of getting blown out. Cincy defense has never given up more than 23 points in 7 playoff games the last two seasons. They’ve given up less than 19 points per game in the playoffs. That is extremely helpful to any QB.

Allen’s defense has given up 36 points per game in Buffalo’s last 3 playoff losses. Mahomes’ defense has given up an average of 32 points per game in 3 Playoff losses. Last year Patrick needed 36 just to make it to overtime with Buffalo. He needed 31 just to make it to overtime against the Patriots 4 years ago. Burrow has not dealt with this scenario in his career so far. I am curious to see how long Cincy’s defense can keep playing at such a strong level.

I think they'll probably have some drop off in a year or 2 when Burrow's contract hits. It'll be more interesting to see what happens with their offense though as they can't afford Higgins/Chase/Boyd long-term. I think they should move on from Mixon sooner than later.

Also, going by eye test, Burrow hasn't played like shit like Allen did in his 2 PO games this year. He looked like ass vs Miami and he looked like ass vs Cincy. His play vs Miami would have likely cost them the game (along with their defense) if Miami had a QB with a pulse.

Originally Posted by tredadda

Ryan does have a MVP and Eli does not. But Eli has two SB rings and two SB MVPs. More than Ryan and Rivers combined. Ryan will also be remembered for the epic 28-3 collapse. Ryan is 0-1 against Brady in SBs. Eli is 2-0. Again not a good comparison.

Nick Foles is 1-0 vs Brady in the SB, but when you look at the #s, Brady actually outplayed Foles by a large margin. I'd also argue Eli shouldn't have won either SB MVPs (Tyree and Manningham deserve more credit, IMO, with their catches).

Yes, 28-3 is awful. But how much on that is on Ryan vs the defense/Shanahan going conservative on offensive playcalling?

Originally Posted by mr. tegu

So are they elite or not? If so, why? If not, why not?

Rivers played on a torn ACL in the AFC Championship game losing by 9 against a team that went 16-0 and had another season end because Schottenheimer went full Schottenheimer vs the Patriots at the worst possible time in 2006 along with a DB fumbling an interception to give Brady a chance to tie the game.

To me, to be considered elite, a QB's play has to elevate those around him. I'd argue Rivers and Ryan both did that.

Originally Posted by mr. tegu

One 300 yard game. 0 fourth quarter passing TDs. 0 30 point games. Huge drop in rating in 4th quarter. 0 drives in fourth quarter leading to TDs. There is no debating his defense has carried him in the playoffs.

His defense has helped, yes. But Burrow hasn't played well. He's put the Bengals in a situation to win. As I said, his #s last year were comparable to Jimmy G in the POs. I recognize the defense has been opportunistic and is a large part of their success. But acting as if Burrow is like Trent Dilfer is inaccurate.

If your argument is that Burrow isn't Mahomes, fine. I agree. But if you're going to discredit him, you'd have to day the same with a guy like Brady or Roethlisberger who had good defenses/supporting casts.