The new Dune 2 trailer may very well be the best trailer for a movie I've ever seen

[Fat Elvis]

I really liked the first installment, and the previous trailers for Dune 2 were good, but my jaw hit the floor watching this one....

[BWillie]

98% of people who watched the movie never read the book.

[ThaVirus]

I’ve never read the books.

Which reminds me: is Paul a total Mary Sue in the books as well? I get that the fact that he’s a competent fighter is earned but he’s also the prophesied savior, can do that voice thing, called the biggest sand worm ever on his first try, and is the only male able to drink the worm juice and survive?

[duncan_idaho]

Originally Posted by ThaVirus

I’ve never read the books.

Which reminds me: is Paul a total Mary Sue in the books as well? I get that the fact that he’s a competent fighter is earned but he’s also the prophesied savior, can do that voice thing, called the biggest sand worm ever on his first try, and is the only male able to drink the worm juice and survive?

I mean, he’s the Kwisatz Haderach. The result of a millennium of breeding programs to produce a Chosen One.

It’s kind of the point.

[dlphg9]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Here's something else that bothered me a bit -- they undersold the importance of Spice. Again, I think, to simplify Paul's motivations and character.

Because "Paul is a religious zealot who's bought into his own bullshit" is a LOT easier than "Spice is the material that makes interstellar travel possible and makes Arrakis the most important economic zone in the known universe..."

Suddenly Paul doing what he did is far more defensible - The best defense is a good offense when EVERYONE would gladly conquer your planet and strip mine the whole damn thing.

But again, if you're going to make Chani a noble heroin and Paul a savage zealot, you can't introduce that aspect of it. You can't so much as whisper about the Spacing Guild and their influence on events. Because that would make Paul's actions even more defensible and Villeneuve's general disdain for religious fervor couldn't be hammered home as readily.

Don't they talk about how important spice is and that it is required for safe interstellar travel? How it's the most expensive thing in the galaxy. It was when Paul was watching the documentary thing before he left for Arrakis.

[ThaVirus]

Originally Posted by duncan_idaho

I mean, he’s the Kwisatz Haderach. The result of a millennium of breeding programs to produce a Chosen One.

It’s kind of the point.

Ah, I must have missed that then.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by ThaVirus

I’ve never read the books.

Which reminds me: is Paul a total Mary Sue in the books as well? I get that the fact that he’s a competent fighter is earned but he’s also the prophesied savior, can do that voice thing, called the biggest sand worm ever on his first try, and is the only male able to drink the worm juice and survive?

Yeah - Idaho pretty much said it.

The Bene Gesserit breeding program has gone on for millennia with the sisters 'prodding' certain pairings in an attempt to create a male reverend mother that would have all the benefits of other memory along with prescience and ideal physical characteristics that would allow for those sort of physical feats.

And when he died (and his son turned into fish a couple thousand years later....yeah, shit gets weird) the Bene Gesserit went to work looking for ANOTHER version of him and came up with later versions similar to him like Miles Teg.

And as it turned out, Paul probably wasn't even the Kwisatz Haderach anyway - Duncan Idaho was. But again, you can probably blame Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson for that particular piece of shit plot twist and you're better served to not even consider it.

It's similar to the Hitchhikers Guide series - really, just stop after So Long and Thanks For All The Fish and you'll be much happier for it.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by dlphg9

Don't they talk about how important spice is and that it is required for safe interstellar travel? How it's the most expensive thing in the galaxy. It was when Paul was watching the documentary thing before he left for Arrakis.

Maybe they briefly mentioned it.

But in the books, the geopolitical and socioeconomic elements of Spice production are ENORMOUS. In many ways, more important to Paul than any sort of religious fervor.

And I think they hand-waived that in favor of streamlining (and overly simplifying) the motivations of the characters. They wanted to make the movie more accessible for non-readers and in so doing, made it too black and white. They kinda eliminated some of the ambiguity that made the original trilogy as powerful as it was.

[Frazod]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Agreed.

And then having to explain toddler Alia going out there doing grownup shit was just going to really send people cross-eyed.

But you couldn't very well have her out there doing toddler shit either. So they moved up the timeline to simply avoid the cognitive dissonance.

It's not terribly unlike GOT just aging up the characters in the series vs. the books. Because for viewers, seeing these people run shit at 13 yrs old just wouldn't make sense to them.

And like you, I have to remind myself that when I tried to watch Dune BEFORE I read the books, I was bored and ultimately a bit lost. So if they're going to appeal to the folks that haven't read the books, they had to change a few things up. It's a little difficult for me to think "okay, how would the uninitiated absorb any of this" when I've read 10 of these books when you include the prequels.

I just don't think the Chani thing was the right way to go about doing it.

I continue to call bullshit on the unborn Alia thing. Like it would have been difficult to put a midget in black robes and CGI a baby face on it. Hell, even the '84 movie and the miniseries did okay with it without the benefits of modern special effects and a massive budget.

But sadly, I do agree that they were definitely targeting people who never read the book. More specifically, they're targeting people who have never read ANY BOOKS. At least not the kind that don't prominently feature color drawings of superheroes. That's great for BWillie. For me, not so much.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Frazod

I continue to call bullshit on the unborn Alia thing. Like it would have been difficult to put a midget in black robes and CGI a baby face on it. Hell, even the '84 movie and the miniseries did okay with it without the benefits of modern special effects and a massive budget.

But sadly, I do agree that they were definitely targeting people who never read the book. More specifically, they're targeting people who have never read ANY BOOKS. At least not the kind that don't prominently feature color drawings of superheroes. That's great for BWillie. For me, not so much.

I'm not saying it couldn't have been done.

I'm saying it would've been ****ing weird for audiences with no concept of the books. This baby shows up and kills the damn Baron? WTF?

Trying to explain how all that abomination stuff works would've sent the audience cross-eyed and messed with pacing a TON.

Again, I think as folks that have read the books, we have to consider the cognitive dissonance that would've come to those that haven't. These movies don't get made if they're just for the book readers so we have to accept concessions to those that AREN'T if we want to see some of these things brought to the screen.

The LOTR series is a fantastic example of this. It's such a good complement to the books that the entire Tolkien universe is better for them existing. If that means that the ents get a little less back story or Tom Bombadil gets essentially ignore...okay. As a book reader, I'm bummed by that, but it's a trade I'm more than willing to make to have these movies exist.

I'm fine with excising Alia from the story in the short term for the sake of story and appeal to the common audience. I just think there are OTHER creative decisions made that did more damage than that WITHOUT making the movie better or more accessible to the audience writ large.

[Frazod]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

I'm not saying it couldn't have been done.

I'm saying it would've been ****ing weird for audiences with no concept of the books. This baby shows up and kills the damn Baron? WTF?

Trying to explain how all that abomination stuff works would've sent the audience cross-eyed and messed with pacing a TON.

Again, I think as folks that have read the books, we have to consider the cognitive dissonance that would've come to those that haven't. These movies don't get made if they're just for the book readers so we have to accept concessions to those that AREN'T if we want to see some of these things brought to the screen.

The LOTR series is a fantastic example of this. It's such a good complement to the books that the entire Tolkien universe is better for them existing. If that means that the ents get a little less back story or Tom Bombadil gets essentially ignore...okay. As a book reader, I'm bummed by that, but it's a trade I'm more than willing to make to have these movies exist.

I'm fine with excising Alia from the story in the short term for the sake of story and appeal to the common audience. I just think there are OTHER creative decisions made that did more damage than that WITHOUT making the movie better or more accessible to the audience writ large.

How is it suddenly such a difficult thing to explain? They were able to adequately explain it in the '84 movie with simple voiceover narration. I mean, it's not like Alia shoots out of Jessica's box and strangles the Baron with her own umbilical cord. Everybody knows who she is and why she is the way she is. We're not talking the end of Interstellar here.

And let's not forget, Alia is a far more important character than Chani, and they reduced her to an unborn embryo. Chani is nothing more than a background character - Paul's eventual concubine and the mother of his children. THAT'S IT. No special abilities, no great intelligence, no strategic acumen; just a faithful, loyal, mundane woman who loves her man. Period. But not in ZENDAYA'S CHANIVERSE! She must be a superninja****, and take up half the movie!

God I hate this ****ing movie. Every time I think about it I hate it more. ****!

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Frazod

How is it suddenly such a difficult thing to explain? They were able to adequately explain it in the '84 movie with simple voiceover narration. I mean, it's not like Alia shoots out of Jessica's box and strangles the Baron with her own umbilical cord. Everybody knows who she is and why she is the way she is. We're not talking the end of Interstellar here.

And let's not forget, Alia is a far more important character than Chani, and they reduced her to an unborn embryo. Chani is nothing more than a background character - Paul's eventual concubine and the mother of his children. THAT'S IT. No special abilities, no great intelligence, no strategic acumen; just a faithful, loyal, mundane woman who loves her man. Period. But not in ZENDAYA'S CHANIVERSE! She must be a superninja****, and take up half the movie!

God I hate this ****ing movie. Every time I think about it I hate it more. ****!

Alia ends up more important.

But in Dune she's not.

In Messiah and Children she moves past Chani (for fairly obvious spoilery reasons) but Dune is about ascension of Paul from Paul to Muad'dib. Chani was clearly more critical to that process.

Now should Messiah get made, there's still PLENTY of time to right any wrongs here. It can be done in the first half hour pretty easily. But they had no way to know if this was going to have legs beyond the first book. Hell, they STILL don't. I'm not convinced Messiah (and certainly not Children) translate well to film at all.

I really don't think they should make anymore movies. I don't think they can tell the rest of that story without losing...everyone. By God Emperor, any sense of scale would be completely off the rails. We've gone literally thousands of years into the future and things have...uh...taken a turn to say the least.

I understand trying to make this as "Dune Only" film universe and if that's your intent, Alia really has very little utility.

[DJ's left nut]

As i think about it a bit, I think Messiah can translate to a movie pretty well and you can insert your time jump there pretty easily.

It's a shorter book as well, there'd be plenty of run time to explain Alia.

If done right, Messiah can close the series extremely well and provide a very nice resolution to some of the things that bugged people about the 2nd movie.

And if someone wanted to pick up the Leto stuff later on...whatever. It can be a stand-alone trilogy of sorts. But it's not at all necessary and probably wouldn't be terribly successful.

[Frazod]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Alia ends up more important.

But in Dune she's not.

In Messiah and Children she moves past Chani (for fairly obvious spoilery reasons) but Dune is about ascension of Paul from Paul to Muad'dib. Chani was clearly more critical to that process.

Now should Messiah get made, there's still PLENTY of time to right any wrongs here. It can be done in the first half hour pretty easily. But they had no way to know if this was going to have legs beyond the first book. Hell, they STILL don't. I'm not convinced Messiah (and certainly not Children) translate well to film at all.

I really don't think they should make anymore movies. I don't think they can tell the rest of that story without losing...everyone. By God Emperor, any sense of scale would be completely off the rails. We've gone literally thousands of years into the future and things have...uh...taken a turn to say the least.

I understand trying to make this as "Dune Only" film universe and if that's your intent, Alia really has very little utility.

We'll have to agree to disagree on Alia vs. Chani. Chani may be important to Paul, but not to the story. She kills one idiot Fremen challenger whose name we never know and pops out a baby that gets killed. As a toddler, Alia kills the Baron, talks shit to the emperor and mind****s a reverend mother. Game set match.

And I figure the next movie will go completely off the rails. How do you get SuperChani back to the point where she falls in line with the events of the second book? I guess you can tell me all about it, since I won't personally know. I'll never watch another one of Villeneuve's movies. Hell, I don't even want to ever watch Blade Runner 2049 again.

[DJ's left nut]

Yeah, they've written themselves into a bit of a corner with Chani.

I really don't know how they get her back to being the mother of Paul's children now that she's peaced out as he's gone off to his Jihad.

They'll have some 'splaining to do there, to be sure. Because much of Pauls decision-making throughout Messiah is dependent on his relationship with Chani. His ultimate decision at the end of Messiah is about his children as much as it is the Golden Path.

That's why I say they've fundamentally undermined the story by Girl Bossing her. That relationship is massively critical to Paul and the choices he makes even as Muad'dib.

(and why I maintain that she's more important as written than you're giving her credit for. Though I'll concede that the character as filmed actually takes on diminished importance due to the choices Villeneuve made in trying to make her MORE central. That was just such a bad choice)

[Urc Burry]

I’d assume in Messiah they will show Alia aging a bit because it will help the majority of the audience understand her character a bit more. But she’s 16 during the book and the casting of Anya Taylor-Joy pretty much tells you it’s going to be her for the majority of it.

I think CoD could be an excellent 2 part movie. But if I’m Villenueve I probably exit after Messiah. I wouldn’t want to risk the audience fizzling out after part 1.

God Emperor… no chance