Yeesh - Alec Baldwin just plopped into a world of hurt

[Baby Lee]

Breaking - details forthcoming

Discharged a 'prop' weapon that resulted in a death and another severe injury.

https://www.santafenewmexican.com/ne...c47b69ce5.html

[Red Dawg]

Like many on here I have been to a bunch of weapons training courses. The number one rule is to never point a gun at somebody unless you intend to kill them. It doesn't matter if you think it's unloaded or not. You don't point a weapon at someone for fun at all.

Baldwin is responsible plain and simple. He is the one ****ing around. Involutary manslaughter.

[Frazod]

Originally Posted by DaFace

It sounds to me like this was a combination of incompetence and budget cuts. As I understand it, some (most?) films use guns that are ONLY able to fire blanks, which takes out some of the risk from people being idiots. Obviously this one bypassed that and amplified the risk with someone who had no idea what they were doing.

I have no idea how that would work. A blank is just a cartridge without a bullet. I guess you could shorten up the chamber on a pistol so it wouldn't feed a regular bullet (wouldn't work on a revolver), or alter the caliber to something not commercially available and then make your own blanks. Both would be harder and more expensive than simply not being an idiot with firearms.

I've seen shows where the pistols are used that are obviously fake, because they fire a round but the slide doesn't move. I guess it's not that big of a deal, but I notice it immediately.

[Perineum Ripper]

Talked to a couple SEAL guys I know that have worked on movies, said that any gun that was able to fire live rounds. We’re always locked up and only lead armor had the key, then when weapons brought out at least 2 people checked weapons before handing them off.


Don’t know how common this is or if it was just the way they ran their shit.

[Frazod]

Originally Posted by Red Dawg

Like many on here I have been to a bunch of weapons training courses. The number one rule is to never point a gun at somebody unless you intend to kill them. It doesn't matter if you think it's unloaded or not. You don't point a weapon at someone for fun at all.

Baldwin is responsible plain and simple. He is the one ****ing around. Involutary manslaughter.

There are plenty of scenes in movies where the shooter is shooting at the camera.



Do you think Joe Pesci checked this gun prior to firing, or just trusted the armorer who told him it was ready to go?

[Mennonite]

Originally Posted by Frazod

There are plenty of scenes in movies where the shooter is shooting at the camera.

I think you're forgetting that Alec Baldwin is an asshole. Therefore MANSLAUGHTER.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by DaFace

It sounds to me like this was a combination of incompetence and budget cuts. As I understand it, some (most?) films use guns that are ONLY able to fire blanks, which takes out some of the risk from people being idiots. Obviously this one bypassed that and amplified the risk with someone who had no idea what they were doing.

Really not sure how you'd do that with a revolver.

My understanding is that this can be done with a semi-auto pretty easily (I'm guessing you'd just shorten the chamber so that a round with a bullet in it couldn't seat and it would force a jam) but with a revolver, it would be pretty obvious.

But again - that's a purpose built weapon and I've actually read the opposite - it's not common practice. I do suspect you'll see them become more common though.

In the end this was just such a fluke confluence of events. And as Frazod noted, this happens every 30 years or so. Oh sure, there are accidental discharges or occasionally a wadding from a blank will give someone a mark. But the Brandon Lee thing was crazy (a 'bullet' from a dummy round was discharged by a blank after getting lodged in the barrel) and the Baldwin one was just such a staggering display of stupidity that it defies all comprehension.

I mean seriously - the crew was loading guns off the set with live ammo and taking target practice with them? It just never occurred to me that this would ever happen. I figured chain of custody stuff on these movie guns would just be iron-clad. They're locked up until used, then locked up again.

Unless the AD that was responsible for locking them up was also involved in the target practice. Which at this point I wouldn't even consider unlikely because that guy appears to be a moron.

[Red Dawg]

Originally Posted by Frazod

There are plenty of scenes in movies where the shooter is shooting at the camera.



Do you think Joe Pesci checked this gun prior to firing, or just trusted the armorer who told him it was ready to go?

If he didn't then he's an idiot. Alec was just ****ing around and didn't check.

[DaFace]

Originally Posted by Frazod

I have no idea how that would work. A blank is just a cartridge without a bullet. I guess you could shorten up the chamber on a pistol so it wouldn't feed a regular bullet (wouldn't work on a revolver), or alter the caliber to something not commercially available and then make your own blanks. Both would be harder and more expensive than simply not being an idiot with firearms.

I've seen shows where the pistols are used that are obviously fake, because they fire a round but the slide doesn't move. I guess it's not that big of a deal, but I notice it immediately.

I THINK they are a slightly smaller caliber, so real bullets won't fit in the chamber. Not 100% sure of that, but they're definitely a thing.

https://replicaweaponry.com/blank-guns/

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Frazod

There are plenty of scenes in movies where the shooter is shooting at the camera.



Do you think Joe Pesci checked this gun prior to firing, or just trusted the armorer who told him it was ready to go?

Even money says that scene had a remote camera though.

It's pretty much a strict no no to fire at a camera with an operator. At worst the actor will be given a target mark away from the operator.

[Frazod]

Originally Posted by Mennonite

I think you're forgetting that Alec Baldwin is an asshole. Therefore MANSLAUGHTER.

I haven't forgotten. But if everything we're hearing is accurate, he the least culpable person involved. Has nothing to do with how much of a douche he is.

Most of our favorite actors/actresses are assholes. They're just much better at hiding it.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by DaFace

I THINK they are a slightly smaller caliber, so real bullets won't fit in the chamber. Not 100% sure of that, but they're definitely a thing.

https://replicaweaponry.com/blank-guns/

A blank is still an ordinary round, though - same size cartridge. Just a 'crimped' end with no bullet. A weapon that was the right caliber to seat a blank would also be the right caliber to seat a bullet.

But like I said, I do think you could fiddle with the chamber in a way that makes it doable. Or modify the barrel (taper it) in such a way that round can't seat when the action closes if there's a bullet on the end of the cartridge. I guess you could even do that one with a revolver.

[DaFace]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

A blank is still an ordinary round, though - same size cartridge. Just a 'crimped' end with no bullet. A weapon that was the right caliber to seat a blank would also be the right caliber to seat a bullet.

But like I said, I do think you could fiddle with the chamber in a way that makes it doable. Or modify the barrel (taper it) in such a way that round can't seat when the action closes if there's a bullet on the end of the cartridge. I guess you could even do that one with a revolver.

I know you can fire "normal" blanks in a real gun. What I'm less clear on is if those "blank guns" use special ammo that's different than a "normal" blank.

Regardless, they exist and are apparently in use in at least some films.

[Frazod]

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut

Even money says that scene had a remote camera though.

It's pretty much a strict no no to fire at a camera with an operator. At worst the actor will be given a target mark away from the operator.

If everybody involved knew it was loaded with blanks, I don't see the point.

[ghak99]

Originally Posted by DaFace

I THINK they are a slightly smaller caliber, so real bullets won't fit in the chamber. Not 100% sure of that, but they're definitely a thing.

https://replicaweaponry.com/blank-guns/

Interesting. The price is much much lower than I would expect.


This quote from their product description is interesting as well..

All blank firing firearms should be treated like live, working firearms and afforded the same caution, care, and respect. Exercise the same caution and safety with a blank firing firearm as you would with a live firearm, whether it is loaded or not.

[DJ's left nut]

Originally Posted by Red Dawg

Like many on here I have been to a bunch of weapons training courses. The number one rule is to never point a gun at somebody unless you intend to kill them. It doesn't matter if you think it's unloaded or not. You don't point a weapon at someone for fun at all.

Baldwin is responsible plain and simple. He is the one ****ing around. Involutary manslaughter.

I don't think that's likely at all.

Let's say for a moment that you're right and he had a duty of care that he didn't exercise sufficiently to rise to a level of criminally negligent (essentially the standard for involuntary manslaughter) - the outcome has to be a reasonably foreseeable, natural and probable outcome of the behavior.

This has happened once in 30 years and NEVER in this way. Over decades of movie-making. I can't see a jury finding that 'foreseeable' in that event. Additionally, there's a superseding cause question here - presuming Baldwin was unaware of the astonishingly stupid behavior of the crew in using the gun for target practice - that astonishingly stupid behavior could be seen as a superseding cause that relieves him of responsibility.

The question is different if he knew or should have known about the target practice. And yeah, that question will absolutely have to be answered. But if he had no idea it was going on, I'd be floored if he's even charged, let alone convicted.