Do we want DeHop?

[ROYC75]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl...9536dcd3&ei=21


Story by Andrew Gould




The Kansas City Chiefs won the Super Bowl without a star wide receiver, but they could reportedly make an elite offense even scarier by acquiring DeAndre Hopkins.

NFL insider Benjamin Albright told PHNX Cardinals that Kansas City is the "primary suitor" for Hopkins. He doesn't know the draft compensation the Cardinals would receive, but he said it's more likely they get a second-round pick than a first.

After the 2022 season, theScore's Jordan Schultz reported that the Cardinals plan to trade Hopkins this offseason.

Arizona hired a new general manager and head coach after a disappointing four-win season, and Hopkins is set to make $19.45 million (with a $30.75 million cap hit) in 2023. The Cardinals could seek a clean slate by moving the three-time All-Pro wideout, who turns 31 in June.

Hopkins began his Cardinals career by tallying 1,407 yards and six touchdowns in 2020. However, multiple lower body injuries limited him to 10 games in 2021, and he served a six-game suspension to start the 2022 season for violating the NFL's PED policy.

Yet he remains an impact player when on the field. Hopkins totaled 474 receiving yards in six full games with quarterback Kyler Murray last season.

Now imagine what he can accomplish when catching passes from Patrick Mahomes.

The Chiefs flourished without a star replacement for Tyreek Hill, but they could still benefit by solidifying the position this offseason. JuJu Smith-Schuster is a free agent after garnering 78 catches for 933 yards on a one-year deal. The depth chart features several talented question marks in Mecole Hardman, Kadarius Toney, and Marquez Valdes-Scantling.

Adding Hopkins could be great news for Kansas City, but terrible for all opposing defenses.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do we want a high priced prima donna?

[Rasputin]

Originally Posted by Mecca

New Englands best offense was not drafted and developed lol.

If you're talking Randy Moss as NE best offense they didn't win a Lombardi with him.

[O.city]

Originally Posted by Megatron96

First of all, and perhaps most importantly, I NEVER, ever, said "do like NE."

I've always said, "we aren't NE; we aren't based on a top-5 defense and a patchwork offense. The NFL has changed (in large part because of Andy Reid), so let's go the other way and have a top-3 offense and we can win SBs consistently as long as we have a top-12 or so defense."



And in my defense, Andy and Veach has consistently preached "more weapons for Pat," since he became a starter. Until this offseason.



Now back to the Tyreek thing. Yes, DCs adjust and OCs counter every year, we all know that, but thanks for bringing that up.

However, Tyreek during his time with KC was mostly a deep threat WR, though he could and did run shorter routes a fair amount.

But DCs adjusted to his deep threat ability by almost unanimously going to some type of 2-high shell coverage, and defending the deepest zones of the field, essentially giving away the shorter zones, because Tyreek just wasn't as efficient there.

in other words, they were banking on the idea that Tyreek would eventually try to go deep, no matter what gyrations he might go through underneath initially.

Hill also was just a smaller stature guy with a smaller catch radius, so there were things he wasn't great at, like back shoulder catches, beating press on the slant, etc. so often Pat chose not to throw those passes.

What I'm saying is that as great as Hill was, he was also limited in some ways as a WR, that DCs didn't really have to concern themselves with. What that allowed DCs to do often was simply put his fastest DBs on Tyreek, as opposed to the best DB, which he could then use on Travis, or Sammy, as an example.


Put a prototypical WR1 like a Hopkins/Jefferson/McLaurin/etc. and DCs can't just bracket the guy with fast but less talented DBs. DCs would be forced to respect that WR as a legit threat anywhere on the field, in ways that weren't as problematic for them when Hill was our WR1.

Especially if that WR wasn't a volume WR, but a every efficient WR, like a D. Adams or DHop. The 2-high thing wouldn't work, because that defense works best against deep threats, and not nearly as well vs. big, physical, press man-beating WRs that can run the entire route tree underneath in traffic, and have large catch radiuses to make the QB's accuracy less of an issue.


I mean, this is why Sammy was so effective when he was healthy. DCs went with the 2-high shell to combat Hill's deep threat ability, and tried to go 1v1 with their DB1/2 on Sammy. When he was healthy, that defense just didn't work as well, because Watkins would burn 1v1 coverage more often than not.

Yeah, you lost me with the "prototypical WR" that does more than Tyreek.

Tyreek is a top 5 WR in the league and a HOF'er.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by Megatron96

The WR room significantly underperformed, particularly in scoring TDs (13).


What happened was McKinnon went off in the second half of the season, scoring 10 TDs and snaring 512 yards receiving on the season, making up for JuJu falling off, and the WRs in general struggling to get into the EZ (except for Hardman). And no, it's not normal for RB2s to go 512/9.


Opposing defenses simply didn't account for McKinnon becoming a WR out of the backfield.


That won't be the case in 2023. Opposing DCs will make adjustments and McKinnon won't be as effective.


Toney has played more than 10 games in a season just once between college and the NFL over 5 seasons, due to injuries. He averaged about 25 yards/game receiving. He's going to have to more than double that in his new role as WR1. But now he'll be facing the CB1 of every defense, not the CB2/3/4. However, if he continues to have injury issues, he may not break 500 yards.

Skyy had just one game in which he caught more than 4 balls for more than 35 yards (5/64). He had 11 games in which he caught 1 ball or less, and only 3 games in which he caught more than 3 balls. And it wasn't just because he was buried on the depth chart, or just because Pat's aim was off occasionally.


Rice, based on Andy's history since he came to KC, will probably see about 50-60 targets this season, assuming all goes well in preseason. Assume he catches about 66% of them. That'll be around 450 yards, and that's probably in the ballpark for him in 2023.


Richie is more than likely rotational depth, and it's his first season in Andy's offense. He's had injury issues recently, but let's pretend he plays all 17 games, or at least 90% of the season. He might be good for about 300-400 yards, and I'll go out on a limb here and say 25 1st downs, which is really more important the yards for his role.

This is a bunch of nonsense. Nobody but you gives a shit who scores the TDs. The scheme often left McKinnon all alone or with a LB. That's a win, and not a problem in any world but the one in your head.

[O.city]

It's not be a defensive unit and a patchwork offense like NE. It's find value and pivot on and off guys like NE did that kept them at the level they were for so long.

The Chiefs have the offensive version of Bill in Andy. He has, can, and will find offensive weapons where others won't.

AKA getting that out of McKinnon etc.

[Rasputin]

I think Rice can go over 1,000 yards this year. I think he will.

[Megatron96]

Originally Posted by O.city

Yeah, you lost me with the "prototypical WR" that does more than Tyreek.

Tyreek is a top 5 WR in the league and a HOF'er.

Yes, Tyreek is a HoFer, no one is disputing that. He's also 5'9" and therefore physically limited as to just how large his catch radius is. Or how consistently he can beat certain DBs.

maybe you remember the several Tyreek-tipped balls that resulted in INTs? It was the cause of a lot of concern around here in 2021.

Simply put, a prototypical WR (6ft+, 210-lb.) WR is a much bigger target, with a potentially much larger catch radius, yes? I mean, we can agree that Hopkins has a much larger catch radius than Tyreek, right?

I'll stop there and wait for a reply, because if we can't agree on those points, the rest of this conversation is pointless.

[Kiimo]

Originally Posted by Rasputin

I think Rice can go over 1,000 yards this year. I think he will.

That would be pretty peculiar but I hope you're right.


Garrett Wilson and Chris Olave did.

[Megatron96]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

This is a bunch of nonsense. Nobody but you gives a shit who scores the TDs. The scheme often left McKinnon all alone or with a LB. That's a win, and not a problem in any world but the one in your head.

it goes without saying that the most talented ball-carriers are WRs, out of all offensive position groups.

But don't take my word for it; simply go through each team's stats and it's pretty obvious that the most able scorers are the WRs, across the league for at least the last 25+ years. Not terribly surprising, considering they generally speaking are the fastest, most able pass-catchers on the field.

As such, they generally score most of the TDs for any given team.

Except the Chiefs, in 2022. In 2022, the Chiefs WR room caught just 13 TDs, while the rest of the teams' starting WRs in the playoffs averaged over 20. Iirc, the top 5 playoff teams starting WRs averaged closer to or over 25 TDs.


The question I've asked myself, and apparently many others have as well since the Hopkins' trade rumors first began, is how feasible it is really to depend more on an oft-injured backup RB to score 10+ TDs than on our top 3 WRs to produce the same or better?


I just personally don't like those odds as much as others seem to.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by Megatron96

it goes without saying that the most talented ball-carriers are WRs, out of all offensive position groups.

But don't take my word for it; simply go through each team's stats and it's pretty obvious that the most able scorers are the WRs, across the league for at least the last 25+ years. Not terribly surprising, considering they generally speaking are the fastest, most able pass-catchers on the field.

As such, they generally score most of the TDs for any given team.

Except the Chiefs, in 2022. In 2022, the Chiefs WR room caught just 13 TDs, while the rest of the teams' starting WRs in the playoffs averaged over 20. Iirc, the top 5 playoff teams starting WRs averaged closer to or over 25 TDs.


The question I've asked myself, and apparently many others have as well since the Hopkins' trade rumors first began, is how feasible it is really to depend more on an oft-injured backup RB to score 10+ TDs than on our top 3 WRs to produce the same or better?


I just personally don't like those odds as much as others seem to.

Because nobody cares. McKinnon's problem has never been talent, and if McKinnon can't go, I see no reason Pacheco can't do a lot of the same work in year two. Schematically, if they've managed to cover Kelce and the WRs, then we'll eat them alive with the backs. It's literally how the offense is designed. It's not a problem, it's a feature. This is all a bunch of hand wringing about nothing.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by GloucesterChief

Being explosive while relying on one trick allows the D to scheme to take away that trick. It hurt that there was nothing after Kelce and Hill.

Now, it is more cogs in the machine. As long as the engine, Mahomes, is running fine then everything else is replaceable and interchangeable. Being able to grind clock and wins when needed is a good thing. If we had a quick strike O in the super bowl, the Eagles probably beat us.

So why couldn't we instead build around Kelce and Tyreek with the collection of talent we now have. And it's not because Tyreek got paid. We ignored the WR position for years. We messed up the ceh pick. And when we lost Sammy Watkins it showed. So I don't get why having a WR1 keeps you from building the wr room like we're tryiny to today. Or why our offense wouldn't have looked very very different in a good way if we had Tyreek with juju next to him.

Last season was a really good step. Mahomes matured as a QB. We finally built the depth we should've built years ago. We finally gave mahomes a RB. So what happens if you actually add in a legit WR1? Why wouldn't that just build on our improvements from last season?

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

So why couldn't we instead build around Kelce and Tyreek with the collection of talent we now have. And it's not because Tyreek got paid. We ignored the WR position for years. We messed up the ceh pick. And when we lost Sammy Watkins it showed. So I don't get why having a WR1 keeps you from building the wr room like we're tryiny to today. Or why our offense wouldn't have looked very very different in a good way if we had Tyreek with juju next to him.

Last season was a really good step. Mahomes matured as a QB. We finally built the depth we should've built years ago. We finally gave mahomes a RB. So what happens if you actually add in a legit WR1? Why wouldn't that just build on our improvements from last season?

You could, and they could have, except that because they're spending that money on a WR1, you don't have money to sign a Taylor and/or an Omenihu, so you have to continue to draft those positions instead. Spend in one place, you can't in another. So you have to draft for it.

They were willing to pay Tyreek to a point, and the pivoted because it was going to cost them too much in other areas. I really don't understand why this is so difficult for people to grasp. Yes, they were willing to pay Tyreek, probably up to $20m, knowing it would cost them in other places on the roster; they pivoted when the price got too steep and went in another direction.

Maybe you think they want to pivot back, but they've committed all of the cap room to other positions (like the offensive line), and spent serious draft resources on WR instead. I'd like to see Mahomes on two legs in a SB. It's been awhile. But that's just me.

It's really quite plain to see, if you're willing to see it. If you want to stick your fingers in your ears and dream of Deandre Hopkins, feel free, but that's all it is.

We're drafting and developing our WR room, and rolling with Mahomes and an improved defense while we do so.

[Megatron96]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

Because nobody cares. McKinnon's problem has never been talent, and if McKinnon can't go, I see no reason Pacheco can't do a lot of the same work in year two. Schematically, if they've managed to cover Kelce and the WRs, then we'll eat them alive with the backs. It's literally how the offense is designed. It's not a problem, it's a feature. This is all a bunch of hand wringing about nothing.

And I might believe that is the new scheme, except that Veach didn't draft a premium RB or TE. Instead, he traded up to draft a WR, signed another, sent someone to take a look at Odell, may have spoken with DHop's agent, and didn't draft any TEs at all.

Which leads me to believe that WRs are still probably important to the scheme.

I mean, if RBs are the new face of the Chiefs, then why didn't Veach draft one sooner than the 7th round? Why just resign a couple backups, retain CEH?

I mean, Pacheco is pretty good, but he had to undergo two surgeries after just his first season, so you'd think Veach would've been pretty focused on finding a couple solid options if he got dinged up.

Or at least just to lighten the load for him in 2023.

And there were several much better RB prospects both in the draft and FA if that were the case, weren't there?

Instead, the RB room was kind of treated like an afterthought.


As for hand-wringing, well I guess i just don't get the warm fuzzies about our WR room when they totaled just 81 yards receiving in the SB. When they ranked outside the top-10 in total yards/TDs in 2022. I think that's a little concerning. Especially when our projected WR1 has played just one complete season in five years.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by Megatron96

And I might believe that is the new scheme, except that Veach didn't draft a premium RB or TE. Instead, he traded up to draft a WR, signed another, sent someone to take a look at Odell, may have spoken with DHop's agent, and didn't draft any TEs at all.

Which leads me to believe that WRs are still probably important to the scheme.

I mean, if RBs are the new face of the Chiefs, then why didn't Veach draft one sooner than the 7th round? Why just resign a couple backups, retain CEH?

I mean, Pacheco is pretty good, but he had to undergo two surgeries after just his first season, so you'd think Veach would've been pretty focused on finding a couple solid options if he got dinged up.

Or at least just to lighten the load for him in 2023.

And there were several much better RB prospects both in the draft and FA if that were the case, weren't there?

Instead, the RB room was kind of treated like an afterthought.


As for hand-wringing, well I guess i just don't get the warm fuzzies about our WR room when they totaled just 81 yards receiving in the SB. When they ranked outside the top-10 in total yards/TDs in 2022. I think that's a little concerning. Especially when our projected WR1 has played just one complete season in five years.

Nobody is saying WRs aren't important. At least I'm certainly not. I really wish you could make a sensible argument without distorting mine.

[Megatron96]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

Nobody is saying WRs aren't important. At least I'm certainly not. I really wish you could make a sensible argument without distorting mine.

Hockey game just started, so I'm not completely focused on this thread right now, however . . .

Maybe you're not, but there's some that are echoing some of the things you are saying, and apparently arguing that the Chiefs WRs don't need to be any better than they were last season, or that the RBs will simply take up any slack of they can't even play to that level, with which I strongly disagree.


uh, penalty. revist this later.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by Megatron96

Hockey game just started, so I'm not completely focused on this thread right now, however . . .

Maybe you're not, but there's some that are echoing some of the things you are saying, and apparently arguing that the Chiefs WRs don't need to be any better than they were last season, or that the RBs will simply take up any slack of they can't even play to that level, with which I strongly disagree.


uh, penalty. revist this later.

The RB's scored so many TD's because defenses tended to drop 7 and sometimes 8. That means you've got a RB either unaccounted for or with a LB on him. It's a mismatch. You literally try to design offenses to find opportunities like that. It's not a bug, it's a feature.

It's got nothing to do with the WR play, other than if it were WORSE by a significant margin, that mismatch might go away as defenses wouldn't drop all those guys into downfield zones.

There's nothing wrong with RB's scoring a lot of TD's in '22. It means Mahomes was running the offense the way it is designed. No, it's not designed to feature the RB's and I think you know that so stop saying it. It's designed to force mismatches, and if they're dropping 7 and sometimes 8 then you're going to have nobody on a back in the flat, or perhaps a LB who cannot keep up with Mckinnon or Pacheco. It's making the defense pay for that scheme. It's not a problem, it's smart football.

They'll probably score a lot in '23 too, so get ready to be heartily disappointed. Imagine! Being disappointed by RB's who score TD's!

But all it still says is that defenses still feel like their best shot is to drop 7. That's all it means.

And we have the answer for that, so I don't see what the problem is.

They're working on the WR room, they're not being complacent. You have to play the kids to develop them, and they're going to do that. It's fine. It's smart.