Gale Sayers - Extremely over rated?

[dlphg9]

So as I was in the middle of doing some research for a post I went down a rabbit hole and eventually found myself looking at Gale Sayers stats. I may be completely off base here, because admittedly I have never watched any Gale Sayers highlights and am basing this on stats, but how in the hell is he in the HOF? Hell USA Today had him ranked as number 21 all time, 247sports has him ranked as 48 all time.

He played for 7 seasons, but only played a total of 4 games in years 6 and 7 combined. He only had 2 1000 yard seasons and those were the only times he led the league in rushing. He only had 2 seasons in which he had double digit receiving + rushing TDs. He was amazing at punt and kick off returns, but that was only for his first 3 years.

His career accomplishments aren't really that great, besides being AP 4 times. He never even got to play in a playoff game, so he obviously doesn't have any SB championships. He isn't even in the top 100 for career rushing yards, hell he's barely even in the top 150 coming in at 145th. He had a massive amount of rushing TDs though... 39...

He was good at 1 thing when it came to carrying the ball and that was fumbling. He almost has as many fumbles (34) as he does rushing TDs (39). Hell in a couple of seasons he had significantly more fumbles than rushing TDs.

Yr/Rush TDs/Fumbles

1/14/9
2/8/2
3/7/8
4/2/7
5/8/7
6/0/1
7/0/0

Out of 7 years he fumbled more than he rushed for a TD in 3 of those years.

He does have a few things on his resume that are pretty decent. He averaged 5.0 ypc over his entire career, was a fantastic returner during his first 3 years, and his rookie season he had 14 rush TDs, 6 receiving TDs, 1 kickoff return TD, and 1 punt return TD. I think his rookie season may be the reason he is so highly regarded. He is just incredibly over rated and seems to get a boost from being injury prone.

Someone prove me wrong.

[EPodolak]

One of those guys who was splendid and slippery running the ball. Eric Dickerson, OJ Simpson type. Played on a hapless Bears team during 14 game seasons too. Not too concerned about his numbers and worthiness.

[jerryaldini]

Elite elusiveness, speed but also power that Sanders didn't have. His running style was a lot like OJ. The long gallop. Jim Brown is the most dominant back. Led league in rushing 8 times, all but one year. No contest.

But if I have to win one game I'm taking a young four time rushing champ and single season yards leader Eric Dickerson. Best combo of power, speed and elusiveness. 3900 yards in first two seasons, fastest to 10,000.

[CarlosCarson27]

Brian's Song wasnt all that great either

[jerryaldini]

Originally Posted by EPodolak

One of those guys who was splendid and slippery running the ball. Eric Dickerson, OJ Simpson type. Played on a hapless Bears team during 14 game seasons too. Not too concerned about his numbers and worthiness.

My two favorite backs to watch! Similar styles and abilities. Dickerson much more powerful. Also had most dominant playoff rushing game by a back with 250 in a win against the Cowboys.

[Ubeja Vontell]

Originally Posted by CarlosCarson88

Brian's Song wasnt all that great either

Brian Piccolo was the nations leading rusher coming out of Wake Forest.

[jerryaldini]

Originally Posted by Ubeja Vontell

Brian Piccolo was the nations leading rusher coming out of Wake Forest.

Eric Dickerson was a track guy. 6' 3". What was his 40?

[Ubeja Vontell]

Originally Posted by jerryaldini

Eric Dickerson was a track guy. 6' 3". What was his 40?

Simpson 9.4...WR 4x1 relay at USC
Faulk 10.3
Peterson 10.2
Dickerson 9.4
Sayers....long jump/4x1 relay

Were all track guys.

Dickerson has a 4.28 40, and was a Texas sprint champ in HS with a 9.4. If not for football he could have been a world class sprinter.

Jamaal Charles a 10.18 100m while at Texas.

[Megatron96]

Originally Posted by dlphg9

Just got done watching some highlights and I would take Jamaal Charles over Sayers. God I hate watching old highlight vids. Everyone looks so god damn slow. Sayers was a great athlete back then, but if he played now he wouldn't be shit.

Younger fans always think that the players from the previous generations weren't as fast or as athletic, because they watch these clips on YT and think that stuff was filmed and recorded at the same speed as the stuff today. Which is completely false.

The problem with watching highlight videos on Youtube or whatever of old games is that the games were filmed at 32 fps and then for some reason on YT they replay at 24 fps, which makes everyone look slower than they really were, or even looked when the game actually aired.

Meanwhile, today everything is aired at 60fps.

If you want to get a better idea of Gale's real speed run the YT video at 1.5x speed. It still not quite right, but it's a lot closer to what it probably really looked like when the game aired. When I did this I had the benefit of actual VHS tape, and my player could be adjusted by 0.1X increments, so I could get it to playback at about the actual game speed.

I realized that there was a problem with replay speed because I watched guys like Walter Payton, Roger Craig, Hershel Walker, Marcus Allen, Tony Dorsett, and Eric Dickerson in their prime years, and I knew that they were faster than the replay.

I got my answer when I asked an old A/V guy (God, he was probably about the age I am now) at the library about the problem, and he told me the issue about 32 fps vs. 24 fps, etc.

Btw, Gale ran a 4.38 sec 40 yd time, faster than Damien Williams by about a tenth, and a 9.70 sec or so 100 yd time.

And unlike Damien (and most humans), Gale could change direction almost 90 degrees while going full speed, and not lose any speed.

As for his stats, again, I don't believe that you can look at his stats and say much of anything, because it was a different time, a 14-game schedule, etc. But if you only look at his first 5 years and extrapolate his numbers if he'd had a 16 game season, you find that he'd have run for over 1,000 yards for each of his first five seasons, would've scored more than 10 TDs per season, would've averaged more than 5.0 yards/carry, etc.

Note: Gale Sayers did all of that while never averaging more than 17 rushes/game in any season. Also, Gale is the only NFL player to ever average more than 30 yards/carry as a PR/KR (30.6).

And finally, if you look at his stats from an all-purpose yards stand-point, in his first five years, Gale Sayers accumulated 9,434 yards and 50 TDs. Extrapolate those numbers for a 16-game season, and well, he'd have some pretty gaudy stats for his first five seasons. Or what they might've been had he just averaged around 20 rushes/game instead of just 15.

But again, I think Gale Sayers is a HOFer because of how he ran more than the whatever stats he earned. Watch him run at 1.5x speed.

[Ubeja Vontell]

Originally Posted by Megatron96

Younger fans always think that the players from the previous generations weren't as fast or as athletic, because they watch these clips on YT and think that stuff was filmed and recorded at the same speed as the stuff today. Which is completely false.

The problem with watching highlight videos on Youtube or whatever of old games is that the games were filmed at 32 fps and then for some reason on YT they replay at 24 fps, which makes everyone look slower than they really were, or even looked when the game actually aired.

Meanwhile, today everything is aired at 60fps.

If you want to get a better idea of Gale's real speed run the YT video at 1.5x speed. It still not quite right, but it's a lot closer to what it probably really looked like when the game aired. When I did this I had the benefit of actual VHS tape, and my player could be adjusted by 0.1X increments, so I could get it to playback at about the actual game speed.

I realized that there was a problem with replay speed because I watched guys like Walter Payton, Roger Craig, Hershel Walker, Marcus Allen, Tony Dorsett, and Eric Dickerson in their prime years, and I knew that they were faster than the replay.

I got my answer when I asked an old A/V guy (God, he was probably about the age I am now) at the library about the problem, and he told me the issue about 32 fps vs. 24 fps, etc.

Btw, Gale ran a 4.38 40 time, faster than Damien Williams by about a tenth, and a 9.7 or so 100 time.

And unlike Damien (and most humans), Gale could change direction almost 90 degrees while going full speed, and not lose any speed.

As for his stats, again, I don't believe that you can look at his stats and say much of anything, because it was a different time, a 14-game schedule, etc. But if you only look at his first 5 years and extrapolate his numbers if he'd had a 16 game season, you find that he'd have run for over 1,000 yards for each of his first five seasons, would've scored more than 10 TDs per season, would've averaged more than 5.0 yards/carry, etc.

Note: Gale Sayers did all of that while never averaging more than 17 rushes/game in any season. Also, Gale is the only NFL player to ever average more than 30 yards/carry as a PR/KR (30.6).

And finally, if you look at his stats from an all-purpose yards stand-point, in his first five years, Gale Sayers accumulated 9,434 yards and 50 TDs. Extrapolate those numbers for a 16-game season, and well, he'd have some pretty gaudy stats for his first five seasons. Or what they might've been had he just averaged around 20 rushes/game instead of just 15.

But again, I think Gale Sayers is a HOFer because of how he ran more than the whatever stats he earned. Watch him run at 1.5x speed.

There are no players today or never has been who were faster than Bob Hayes who ran a 10.06 on a dirt track over 50 years ago.

Curtis Dickey back in the 70's still the fastest RB, ran a 10.10.

Yes, Sayers was a 9.7 guy in HS?

[Megatron96]

Originally Posted by Ubeja Vontell

There are no players today or never has been who were faster than Bob Hayes who ran a 10.06 on a dirt track over 50 years ago.

Curtis Dickey back in the 70's still the fastest RB, ran a 10.10.

Yes, Sayers was a 9.7 guy in HS?

According to the Chicago Tribune, Sayers ran a 9.7 sec 100-YARD TIME, not meters.

About half-way down the article:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...049-story.html

[Ubeja Vontell]

Originally Posted by Megatron96

According to the Chicago Tribune, Sayers ran a 9.7 sec 100-YARD TIME, not meters.

About half-way down the article:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...049-story.html

Obviously he ran a 9.7 yards, that's what HS;s ran back then.

The 100m WR in his day was that 10,06 by Bob Hayes.

A 9.7 for meters just won the last World Championships.

John Riggins twice won the Kansas State HS 100 yards, ran a 9.8. I'm guessing a little lighter.

[Megatron96]

9.7 sec for 100-yards is still pretty fast. Just not world-class speed.

[Megatron96]

Going back to context:

"The professional football career of Gale Sayers was brief, lasting for six seasons, from 1965 to 1971. He played a total of only 68 games, yet Sayers retired with a career gain of 6,213 yards and left six National Football League (NFL) records, among them a record as the all-time leading NFL scorer for a single season in 1965 with 22 touchdowns. That record, which stood for 10 years, remained an all-time rookie scoring record into the twenty-first century. Sayers was honored as NFL Rookie of the Year in 1965 and as Most Valuable Player in 1967, 1968, and 1970. " - excerpt from NFL HOF "Gale Sayers"


Sayers' record of 22 touchdowns in a season was broken by O. J. Simpson in 1975, who scored 23; his 22 touchdowns remains a rookie record as of 2017. Sayers remains the most recent player to score at least six touchdowns in a game. His career kickoff return average of 30.56 yards is an NFL record for players with at least 75 attempts and he is one of several players to have scored two return touchdowns in a game. He is tied with four other players for the second most career kickoff return touchdowns, with six. Sayers' rookie record of 2,272 all-purpose yards was finally broken in 1988 by Tim Brown, who gained 2,317 yards through 16 games, which was two more games than Sayers set the record in. His single-season all-purpose yards record of 2,440 set in 1966 was broken in 1974 by Mack Herron, who surpassed it by just four yards.

As of 2019's NFL off-season, Gale Sayers held at least 20 Bears franchise records, including:

Most Rush Yds/Att (career): 5.0
Most Rush Yds/Att (game): 11.59 (1966-12-18 MIN)
Most Rushing TDs (season): 14 (1965; tied with Walter Payton twice)
Most Rushing TDs (rookie season): 14 (1965)
Most Total TDs (season): 22 (1965)
Most Total TDs (game): 6 (1965-12-12 SFO)
Most Total TDs (rookie season): 22 (1965)
Most Total TDs (game, as a rookie): 6 (1965-12-12 SFO)
Most All Purpose Yds (season): 2,440 (1966)
Most All Purpose Yds (game): 339 (1966-12-18 MIN)
Most All Purpose Yds (rookie season): 2,272 (1965)
Most All Purpose Yds (game, as a rookie): 336 (1965-12-12 SFO)
Most Yds/KR (career): 30.56 (also NFL record)
Most Yds/KR (season): 37.69 (1967)
Most Kick Ret TDs (career): 6
Most Games with 1+ TD scored (season): 12 (1965)
Most Games with 1+ TD scored (rookie season): 12
Most Games with 2+ TD scored (rookie season): 4
Most Games with 3+ TD scored (season): 2 (1965; tied with Walter Payton twice, Neal Anderson, and Matt Forte)
Most Games with 3+ TD scored (rookie season): 2

So endeth the lesson.

[Ubeja Vontell]

Originally Posted by Megatron96

9.7 sec for 100-yards is still pretty fast. Just not world-class speed.

Sayers ran that 9.7 around 1960/61 at that time the World Record was 9.3, and Sayers was just a high school kid.

1961 NCAA


1961
(Philadelphia, June 17)
(15 contestants, 9 finalists; Q—9.8y; no semis)
1. Frank Budd (Villanova) ...................................... Jr................9.4y
2. Harry Jerome' (Oregon)..................................... So ..............9.5
3. Leroy Jackson (Western Illinois)........................ Jr................9.5
4. Roscoe Cook (Oregon) ..................................... Sr ...............9.6
5. Bob Brown (Penn State) ................................... Sr ...............9.6
6. Doug Smith (Oxy).............................................. Sr ...............9.6
7. Bob Poynter (San José State)........................... Sr ...............9.7
8. Roy Smalley (Baylor)......................................... Jr................9.7
9. Larry Dunn (Arizona) ......................................... Jr................9.7

9.7 was smokin' for a HS kid.


His brother Roger in 1962

1962
(Eugene, June 16)
(13 contestants, 8 finalists; Q—9.7y; no semis)
1. Frank Budd (Villanova) ...................................... Sr ...............9.4yw
2. Harry Jerome' (Oregon)..................................... Jr................9.4w
3. Dennis Johnson' (San José State) .................... Sr ...............9.4w
4. Roger Sayers (Nebraska–Omaha)..................... So ..............9.5w*****
5 Paul Drayton (Villanova) .................................... Sr ...............9.5w
6. Jack Higgins (Puget Sound).............................. Sr ...............9.6w
7. Joe Thornton (Norfolk State)............................. Sr ...............9.7w
8. Joe Almgauer (Army)......................................... Sr ...............9.7w

[Scooter LaCanforno]

Originally Posted by Ubeja Vontell

Obviously he ran a 9.7 yards, that's what HS;s ran back then.

The 100m WR in his day was that 10,06 by Bob Hayes.

A 9.7 for meters just won the last World Championships.

John Riggins twice won the Kansas State HS 100 yards, ran a 9.8. I'm guessing a little lighter.

I always heard Riggins ran a 9.7

Gayle Sayers should have signed with the Chiefs after they drafted him.