Off Season Lets Talk Guns, Part 2

[HonestChieffan]

Been a while since we had a guns n' ammo discussion.


Some of you are AR shooters Im sure. Im looking at a Colt 6920. Will be my first AR. Picked up a Glock this fall and really enjoy shooting it. Any feedback on that weapon?



Anyone else been in a buy/sell/trade mood with hardware?

[Frazod]

Originally Posted by Megatron96

I just knew we were going to agree on something sooner or later.

We seem to agree on pretty much everything.

Just in different ways.

[Delaney37]

Something I'd add would be before you purchase one see if your local ranges will rent you one. Several ranges here will let you rent so you can fire several handguns before deciding on the one you want to purchase.

[R Clark]

Originally Posted by Delaney37

Something I'd add would be before you purchase one see if your local ranges will rent you one. Several ranges here will let you rent so you can fire several handguns before deciding on the one you want to purchase.

Excellent idea, didn’t know about it till after I bought the wife a gun that didn’t fit her

[Randallflagg]

Originally Posted by R Clark

Excellent idea, didn’t know about it till after I bought the wife a gun that didn’t fit her

That's the beauty of buying guns....there is always your "next one".

[DenverChief]

Originally Posted by Frazod

Glock 19. 9mm (do NOT go any smaller than 9mm). Anytime you read an article pimping another polymer carry gun, they compare it to the Glock 19, and there's a reason for that. It is simple, reliable and affordable. Large magazine capacity despite it's size, which is perfect for concealed carry. The safety is built into the trigger, so you won't have to worry about forgetting to disengage it in the split second you have to react when somebody is trying to murder you. Easy to upgrade, easy to find holsters and accessories. Yeah, it ain't sexy. But that doesn't matter.

And yes, I am carrying one as I type this.

I'm actually impressed by the 43X. 10+1, if you carry an extra mag and can't get out of a shitty situation with 21 rounds....you probably shouldn't have gotten into it in the first place.

[DenverChief]

Originally Posted by Megatron96

First things first: take a training course, probably either a Fundamentals of Handgun Handling, or CCW class. Ask them if they have guns to borrow for the class; many times they do at no extra charge.

The answer to your question is going to vary a bit depending on your experience.

For instance, if this is your first pistol of any kind, then a 1911/striker-fired pistol may not be your best option, as these pistols require a bit more "intelligent" technique to handle safely.

Also, what do you mean by "affordable"? To me that means under $1,000, to another it might mean under $5,000, but it might mean something else entirely to you.

Also when thinking about budget, have you considered the cost of a dedicated gun belt, an appropriate holster (IWB/OWB?), possibly a mag pouch, and relevant training?

However, almost no one thinks about these things when buying their first pistol; they just buy what their buddy told them to buy, or the "expert" behind the counter, or whoever.

My best advice to you is to buy from one of the reputable manufacturers, such as (in no particular order) S&W, Glock, Colt, Ruger, SIG, Beretta, H&K, et al. You will notice that most of these companies are based in the U.S. or have manufacturing in the U.S. I have through over 33 years of trial-and-error established that dealing with warranty/repair issues with handguns made in foreign countries is completely and utterly not worth my time and money. YMMV.

My second piece of advice is to buy the largest gun that you can comfortably conceal and that fits your hand properly. In other words, don't buy your gun based primarily on looks, or who made it, or who's carrying it in what movie/tv show.

My third piece of advice is to buy to most complete gun possible for your dollar. What I mean by that is the gun that has the most extras or bonus features for the same $500 or whatever. Things like night sights, extra mags, multiple sized backstraps for customized fit are nice. S&W's M&P line has backstraps that have integrated palm swell, as opposed to Glock's backstrap thickness only concept. Also, S&W's backstraps can be installed/uninstalled without any tools, while Glock requires something to push the retention pin out. Glocks come stock with plastic sights; if you want something more durable you have to pay extra (think it's about $50 for steel). For the record, my Glock 19 gen 4 plastic sights lasted almost exactly one year before needing replacing. I've heard on the internet (so some grains of salt may be necessary) that plastic Glock sights have been known to last more than a decade. Again, YMMV.

My fourth piece of advice is to actually shoot the guns before deciding which one to buy. Build a list of possible guns regardless of price, then narrow it down to guns between "too cheap to consider" and "way out of my budget." Go find said guns either for rent at a range, or between your friends and family, and shoot them.

Now, because you wanted a list of sorts, and probably won't take any of my aforementioned advice, here it is in order (the ones in bold I've shot/owned personally):

S&W M&P9Compact (or 40) 2.0
H&K VP9
SIG P229/M11-A1
Glock 19 any gen
SIG 320C
Springfield Armory XDM
S&W Shield9/40
SIG P239
CZ-P-10C
Springfield Armory 1911 EMP4
Beretta APX
Ruger American Compact
Ruger Security 9
Ruger LC9S Pro



This is not a complete list of every CCW handgun on the market, of course. This is just a list of the guns I've handled personally, or have people I know that have carried/owned these guns.

My current carry is the S&W M&P40C 2.0. I used to carry the S&W M&P9C 2.0 until two years ago, and before that I carried the SA 1911 EMP. My secondary carry for the last 8 years has been a S&W M&P Shield9 1.0.

Before all of those, I carried a Glock 19 gen 3 then 4. Sold the gen3 when I first got the M&P9C 2.0 (just a much better gun ergonomically, better stock trigger, and it eats my reloads better).

As you might imagine I have a LOT of holsters. Which is where this piece of advice comes in: don't buy ballistic nylon holsters; they're crap. Don't buy "top grain," or "split grain", or "genuine" leather holsters. Don't buy crap holsters, ever. Not only will they fall apart sooner, they can be dangerous to you and/or the people around you. Buy a decent quality holster made of Kydex, full grain (accept nothing less) leather, or horsehide.

A Kydex/leather hybrid is the most common choice I see lately, consider Crossbreed, or Galco, etc.

Side note: A decent gun belt goes for about $45-$100. A decent holster about $40-50. A mag pouch is about $25. A Handgun Basics class is about $30-65 depending.

Solid Post. The only thing I would add is that the Glock 43/43X are excellent choices for concealed carry. Small enough to fit in pants pocket and enough ammo (for me) to feel comfortable (6+1 & 10+1 respectively)

[Frazod]

Originally Posted by DenverChief

I'm actually impressed by the 43X. 10+1, if you carry an extra mag and can't get out of a shitty situation with 21 rounds....you probably shouldn't have gotten into it in the first place.

So it's basically a single stack 19. That could be useful. I hadn't heard of that model before.

Damn you.

[DenverChief]

Originally Posted by Frazod

So it's basically a single stack 19. That could be useful. I hadn't heard of that model before.

Damn you.

It's my next purchase

[Frazod]

Basically half the price of the Springfield EMP, has an extra round, and Bud's has one that comes with night sights for under $500.

Yeah, that'll probably be next for me, too. Wish I'd known about this when I picked up the Ruger LC9s.

Shit. Shit. Shit!

[Fish]

My favorite CCW now for $300.

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...+6%2f7%2f8%2b1

[Frazod]

Originally Posted by Fish

My favorite CCW now for $300.

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...+6%2f7%2f8%2b1

I keep hearing really good things about Walthers. The PPQ has been calling out to me as well.

[DenverChief]

Originally Posted by Fish

My favorite CCW now for $300.

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...+6%2f7%2f8%2b1

Never shot one before...kinda reminds me of the S&W M&P Shield

[Megatron96]

Originally Posted by DenverChief

Solid Post. The only thing I would add is that the Glock 43/43X are excellent choices for concealed carry. Small enough to fit in pants pocket and enough ammo (for me) to feel comfortable (6+1 & 10+1 respectively)

Thanks, and I agree; the G43/43X are good handguns.

And there are plenty more in that size range that are pretty good guns.

My only issue with subcompacts is that after I ran a couple through a training class, I found they all had at least three critical issues:

One, accessing these small guns from concealment under stress can be slow to catastrophically inept. If I were to carry one, I'd almost have to opt for an OWB holster just to ensure a consistent positive draw.

Two, getting good initial COM hits quickly is just harder to do with a smaller gun than it is with a larger one. The shorter sight radius, ofttimes smaller sights, snappier recoil impulse, and less grip to hang onto, all factor into making groups bigger and times longer. And that's just with a time stressor shooting at non-aggressive paper/steel. Never mind what it might be like with someone actually shooting at you. I can do it acceptably with my Shield for example, but I'm a little slower and I have to really focus to keep my hits tight.

And three, reloading. Trying to execute any kind of mag change with these subcompacts is interesting at best. An epic fail at worst. I practice mag changes every morning four days a week 25 times each morning with my Shield when I carry it, and even in the peace and quiet of my bedroom I've missed the magwell. Or even dropped the damned thing. Add in having to do it under time stress or add in movement on top, and it can get to the point of slapstick comedy. Or death, if it were for real.

Because of these issues (could just be me of course), I've mostly phased out subcompacts from my carry list, except as BUGs, or in place of an extra mag.

My original post was assuming a primary carry piece, not a BUG.

Fraz, Walthers, such as the PPQ are really nice guns. I liked the two I shot very well. Just haven't put one really through a solid thrashing to throw it on my list.

[Fish]

Originally Posted by Frazod

I keep hearing really good things about Walthers. The PPQ has been calling out to me as well.

Big fan of both the PPS and the PPQ. Especially the M2 models. Really quality little pistols that don't shoot like light little pistols. The PPS price has recently dropped by quite a bit. PPQ is still ~$500, but that's worth it for what you get. Don't actually own a PPQ, but my buddy does.

[DenverChief]

Originally Posted by Megatron96

Thanks, and I agree; the G43/43X are good handguns.

And there are plenty more in that size range that are pretty good guns.

My only issue with subcompacts is that after I ran a couple through a training class, I found they all had at least three critical issues:

One, accessing these small guns from concealment under stress can be slow to catastrophically inept. If I were to carry one, I'd almost have to opt for an OWB holster just to ensure a consistent positive draw.

Two, getting good initial COM hits quickly is just harder to do with a smaller gun than it is with a larger one. The shorter sight radius, ofttimes smaller sights, snappier recoil impulse, and less grip to hang onto, all factor into making groups bigger and times longer. And that's just with a time stressor shooting at non-aggressive paper/steel. Never mind what it might be like with someone actually shooting at you. I can do it acceptably with my Shield for example, but I'm a little slower and I have to really focus to keep my hits tight.

And three, reloading. Trying to execute any kind of mag change with these subcompacts is interesting at best. An epic fail at worst. I practice mag changes every morning four days a week 25 times each morning with my Shield when I carry it, and even in the peace and quiet of my bedroom I've missed the magwell. Or even dropped the damned thing. Add in having to do it under time stress or add in movement on top, and it can get to the point of slapstick comedy. Or death, if it were for real.

Because of these issues (could just be me of course), I've mostly phased out subcompacts from my carry list, except as BUGs, or in place of an extra mag.

My original post was assuming a primary carry piece, not a BUG.

Fraz, Walthers, such as the PPQ are really nice guns. I liked the two I shot very well. Just haven't put one really through a solid thrashing to throw it on my list.

Interesting, while I can certainly understand the need for a speed draw from a CCW I have for the most part anticipated that if I need to pull my pocket pistol will will have ample opportunity (assuming I'm not directly being attacked) to naturally stick my hands in my pockets and wait for the opportunity to draw (and as long as I'm not wearing my skinny jeans that day I'll be good).

One of the things that has always been nailed in my head when it comes to shooting/reloading and it is spot on is "slow is smooth and smooth is fast". I can certainly understand your position but if you train yourself to be proficient first the fast part will come later. When you are under stress you will revert to the muscle memory and get that mag loaded and on target faster than you think. Forget the time drills for now.