Do we want DeHop?

[ROYC75]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl...9536dcd3&ei=21


Story by Andrew Gould




The Kansas City Chiefs won the Super Bowl without a star wide receiver, but they could reportedly make an elite offense even scarier by acquiring DeAndre Hopkins.

NFL insider Benjamin Albright told PHNX Cardinals that Kansas City is the "primary suitor" for Hopkins. He doesn't know the draft compensation the Cardinals would receive, but he said it's more likely they get a second-round pick than a first.

After the 2022 season, theScore's Jordan Schultz reported that the Cardinals plan to trade Hopkins this offseason.

Arizona hired a new general manager and head coach after a disappointing four-win season, and Hopkins is set to make $19.45 million (with a $30.75 million cap hit) in 2023. The Cardinals could seek a clean slate by moving the three-time All-Pro wideout, who turns 31 in June.

Hopkins began his Cardinals career by tallying 1,407 yards and six touchdowns in 2020. However, multiple lower body injuries limited him to 10 games in 2021, and he served a six-game suspension to start the 2022 season for violating the NFL's PED policy.

Yet he remains an impact player when on the field. Hopkins totaled 474 receiving yards in six full games with quarterback Kyler Murray last season.

Now imagine what he can accomplish when catching passes from Patrick Mahomes.

The Chiefs flourished without a star replacement for Tyreek Hill, but they could still benefit by solidifying the position this offseason. JuJu Smith-Schuster is a free agent after garnering 78 catches for 933 yards on a one-year deal. The depth chart features several talented question marks in Mecole Hardman, Kadarius Toney, and Marquez Valdes-Scantling.

Adding Hopkins could be great news for Kansas City, but terrible for all opposing defenses.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do we want a high priced prima donna?

[Megatron96]

Originally Posted by ForeverIowan

Deandre Hopkins has a very legitimate chance to go down as a top 5ish receiver to ever play the game. EVER!

For those that dont agree, take away Jerry Rice, Randy Moss and Calvin Johnson. Tell me who else had a clear-cut more accomplished career at 30 years of age. His numbers are right there with ANYONE else you can name. Anyone!

Now do me another favor, google career stats and see what kind of years all the greats had at 31, 32 and 33 years of age. Seriously take 5 minutes to look. 95% of these dudes had multiple ENORMOUS years in their early 30s. Rice, Moss, Owens, Andre Johnson, Steve Smith, Fitzgerald, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Cris Carter.

The only "greats" who didnt have monster years in their early 30s were Meagtron who retired at 30. I think we can all agree had Megatron decided to continue to play he wouldve had several more huge years. The second is Julio Jones whose body flat out broke down.

The fact that we are arguing over a 2nd round pick in order to acquire an all-time great is utterly absurd. You want a 3-peat? Trade for DHop! Want a chance to go down as the greatest dynasty ever? Trade for DHop! If you can make the cap work? Trade for DHop! No brainer.

And to end this "debate", a look back at every 2nd round pick KC has made since 2000: William Bartee, Eddie Freeman, Kawika Mitchell, Junior Siavii, Kris Wilson, Bernard Pollard, Turk McBride, Brandon Flowers, Dexter McCluster, Javier Arenas, Rodney Hudson, Jeff Allen, Mitch Morse, Chris Jones, Tanoh, Breeland Speaks, Hardman, Thornhill, Gay, Bolton, Humphrey. How many of those dudes have been pillars of our franchise? At best a 20% hit rate. Everyone else complete busts or JAGs.

Lol, nicely played. rep inbound.

[TwistedChief]

Originally Posted by kccrow

I don't think so, but we can agree to disagree on that.

Dude, give me a break.

I hardly think Toney is a Hardman clone by any stretch. But you’re really bringing Hopkins into the conversation in any sort of a relevant way?

Toney and Hardman bring big play gadget-ish ability with high upside. Hopkins is a borderline HOF receiver at the latter part of his career.

Make all sorts of false comparisons if you choose but bemoaning Hopkins because you’re losing Hardman is laughable.

[bigjosh]

Originally Posted by ForeverIowan

Deandre Hopkins has a very legitimate chance to go down as a top 5ish receiver to ever play the game. EVER!

For those that dont agree, take away Jerry Rice, Randy Moss and Calvin Johnson. Tell me who else had a clear-cut more accomplished career at 30 years of age. His numbers are right there with ANYONE else you can name. Anyone!

Now do me another favor, google career stats and see what kind of years all the greats had at 31, 32 and 33 years of age. Seriously take 5 minutes to look. 95% of these dudes had multiple ENORMOUS years in their early 30s. Rice, Moss, Owens, Andre Johnson, Steve Smith, Fitzgerald, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Cris Carter.

The only "greats" who didnt have monster years in their early 30s were Meagtron who retired at 30. I think we can all agree had Megatron decided to continue to play he wouldve had several more huge years. The second is Julio Jones whose body flat out broke down.

The fact that we are arguing over a 2nd round pick in order to acquire an all-time great is utterly absurd. You want a 3-peat? Trade for DHop! Want a chance to go down as the greatest dynasty ever? Trade for DHop! If you can make the cap work? Trade for DHop! No brainer.

And to end this "debate", a look back at every 2nd round pick KC has made since 2000: William Bartee, Eddie Freeman, Kawika Mitchell, Junior Siavii, Kris Wilson, Bernard Pollard, Turk McBride, Brandon Flowers, Dexter McCluster, Javier Arenas, Rodney Hudson, Jeff Allen, Mitch Morse, Chris Jones, Tanoh, Breeland Speaks, Hardman, Thornhill, Gay, Bolton, Humphrey. How many of those dudes have been pillars of our franchise? At best a 20% hit rate. Everyone else complete busts or JAGs.

Thats what im saying.

A second round pick to get the end of the prime era for an all time type of receiver is a steal.

Even if he only has 3 years of juice left, the 2nd round rookie would never be as productive during his first contract.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BossChief]

Originally Posted by ForeverIowan

Deandre Hopkins has a very legitimate chance to go down as a top 5ish receiver to ever play the game. EVER!

For those that dont agree, take away Jerry Rice, Randy Moss and Calvin Johnson. Tell me who else had a clear-cut more accomplished career at 30 years of age. His numbers are right there with ANYONE else you can name. Anyone!

Now do me another favor, google career stats and see what kind of years all the greats had at 31, 32 and 33 years of age. Seriously take 5 minutes to look. 95% of these dudes had multiple ENORMOUS years in their early 30s. Rice, Moss, Owens, Andre Johnson, Steve Smith, Fitzgerald, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Cris Carter.

The only "greats" who didnt have monster years in their early 30s were Meagtron who retired at 30. I think we can all agree had Megatron decided to continue to play he wouldve had several more huge years. The second is Julio Jones whose body flat out broke down.

The fact that we are arguing over a 2nd round pick in order to acquire an all-time great is utterly absurd. You want a 3-peat? Trade for DHop! Want a chance to go down as the greatest dynasty ever? Trade for DHop! If you can make the cap work? Trade for DHop! No brainer.

And to end this "debate", a look back at every 2nd round pick KC has made since 2000: William Bartee, Eddie Freeman, Kawika Mitchell, Junior Siavii, Kris Wilson, Bernard Pollard, Turk McBride, Brandon Flowers, Dexter McCluster, Javier Arenas, Rodney Hudson, Jeff Allen, Mitch Morse, Chris Jones, Tanoh, Breeland Speaks, Hardman, Thornhill, Gay, Bolton, Humphrey. How many of those dudes have been pillars of our franchise? At best a 20% hit rate. Everyone else complete busts or JAGs.

Why on earth did you take the time to list a bunch of worthless names to create a false narrative instead of making the information relevant?

Brett Veachs 2nd round picks:

Hardman
Thornhill
Gay
Bolton
Humphrey
Moore

Yeah…I’d say those second round picks are important.

If he was 28…the conversation is different.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by Megatron96

DHop averages about 8 tgts/gm. So, don't see why you'd have to force-feed him the ball. He allows Andy to dictate terms to the defense in ways he couldn't this season. And his cap hit can be structured.



This isn't realistic. Depending solely on the draft to develop high echelon players is what NE did. They produced no quality offensive players in that time. Now, I believe Andy/Veach can do better, but opting to ignore perfectly good, reasonably pirced offensive talent just because we didn't draft them is not very intelligent.



Here's the thing, and this is all I'm really doing here, because I've already said multiple times that I don't think DHop will be a Chief.

The thread title is "Do we WANT DHop?" I think the answer should be yes, no question. The value of his performance on the field is obvious, or should be. He's a prototypical WCO WR. He's exactly what Bill Walsh would've wanted, period. Next, he would take some of the pressure off Kelce to be Superman in every big game. thirdly, he'd get open early and Mahomes wouldn't have to run so much. Fourth, he could be a great influence on our young WR room.

Now, you want to bring up the cap hit, which has legs (and is the number one reason I don't think he's going to be a Chief), and for some reason how it would force Pat to throw umpteen hundred balls at him, and mess up the offense. This is just speculation, especially the second part. You also want to have blind faith that we'll just draft and develop enough top-tier WR talent through the draft for the next two or three seasons, in spite of the fact that we're drawing from the bottom of the pile, and will be for the foreseeable future. That's not a great recipe for success. It's not impossible, but the odds aren't stacked in our favor by any means.

And it strikes me as odd that you think Veach will just eternally pull rabbits out of his ass every year. Probability doesn't exactly support the notion, for any GM in history. Veach has done extremely well over the last two drafts, but it's a safer bet to believe that the math will catch up to him eventually and he won't draft quite so many solid players each and every year. Some years he'll do better than others. That's just the cold math of it.

Anyway, my function here is to build DHop's value through facts with as little speculation as possible, in response to the OP, in order to carry on the conversation. Your job (and others) is to diminish his value, I guess.

And why am I playing DA?

Because it's going to be a long offseason. I need something to amuse myself other than Jackson Mahomes doing stupid shit, et al.

I don't think you are paying any attention at all to the fact that we already won a SB, setting a record with a QB or any other single player taking up over 13% of the cap-and Mahomes was 17%. Nobody else has ever done that. And next year it goes up to 23%. Not only can we not go on a spending spree, we're going to have to be pretty thrifty to keep the guys we've got and developed as they come up for extensions.

If we traded for Hopkins, and gave the expected new deal, you've got like a fourth of your ENTIRE CAP tied up in two guys. That's madness, especially considering you just won a SB with the #1 offense in football with a WR corps consisting of good but not great WR's.

It's not good cap value. Hopkins is a good player, no doubt, but not worth the percentage of our cap that we'd have to pay to have him, and it's not smart to do a multi-year deal and backload it because he's already over 30. This is not the way.

We may well sign a Paris Campbell type. We'll almost certainly bring back Watson. I'd just about bet the farm that Hardman will come back on a one year deal to try to improve his stock in '24 since he missed half of the season. You've already got MVS under contract. And you've got Toney, and Skyy.

But mostly, yeah, for the next couple of seasons, we'd be wise to lean heavily on the draft. In '25, Mahomes starts to be less of the cap, and then we can start taking some bigger swings.

Now, I'm not expecting 6 or 7 studs from every draft, but there's no reason to think Veach is suddenly going to start striking out when it appears he's just got into a lockstep with the coaching staff.

Brett Veach said recently that due to financial reasons, we'd be leaning on the draft. Because, yeah, duh, it's obvious when you're paying an elite QB elite QB money. Andy Reid said that Toney and Moore would be taking bigger roles next season.

So you guys can ignore the financial truths, you can ignore how bad of an investment it historically is to pay top market money to over 30 players in the NFL, and you can ignore what your GM and coach are literally telling you in interviews if you want to. You can ignore the last two years of team building, and you can ignore that signing a guy like Hopkins means UNDOING a chunk of what you've built to be able to afford it.

But this is dumb. Really dumb, it's not going to happen, and it's like arguing with children who want to have their cake and eat it too.

[Balto]

Originally Posted by kccrow

What?

Hopkins has 11,298 yards. Moss at the same age had 12,627 yards. Last time I checked that's Moss + 1,329 yards.

Hopkins has 853 receptions. Moss had 802.

Hopkins has 71 TDs. Moss had 127.

So outside of receptions, Moss had him beaten significantly in every other category.

To note, I'm not trying to take anything from D-Hop, he's a good WR. I think if the draft compensation were the same as the Moss trade to New England, I'd be on board with it. I'm not on board for a 2nd round pick.

I said before he was traded to the Pats. I think your counting 11 years for Moss annd only 10 for Hopkins…let’s do apples to apples.

First 10 NFL years:
Moss: 10,874 yards, 689 receptions, 103 TDs
Hopkins: 11,298 yards, 853 receptions, 71 TDs

Soooo as you can see Hopkins is ahead of Moss besides TDs with each having 10 years in.

[Mecca]

Hardmans expected deal is 4-40...you wanna give him that?

[dlphg9]

Originally Posted by ForeverIowan

Deandre Hopkins has a very legitimate chance to go down as a top 5ish receiver to ever play the game. EVER!

For those that dont agree, take away Jerry Rice, Randy Moss and Calvin Johnson. Tell me who else had a clear-cut more accomplished career at 30 years of age. His numbers are right there with ANYONE else you can name. Anyone!

Now do me another favor, google career stats and see what kind of years all the greats had at 31, 32 and 33 years of age. Seriously take 5 minutes to look. 95% of these dudes had multiple ENORMOUS years in their early 30s. Rice, Moss, Owens, Andre Johnson, Steve Smith, Fitzgerald, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Cris Carter.

The only "greats" who didnt have monster years in their early 30s were Meagtron who retired at 30. I think we can all agree had Megatron decided to continue to play he wouldve had several more huge years. The second is Julio Jones whose body flat out broke down.

The fact that we are arguing over a 2nd round pick in order to acquire an all-time great is utterly absurd. You want a 3-peat? Trade for DHop! Want a chance to go down as the greatest dynasty ever? Trade for DHop! If you can make the cap work? Trade for DHop! No brainer.

And to end this "debate", a look back at every 2nd round pick KC has made since 2000: William Bartee, Eddie Freeman, Kawika Mitchell, Junior Siavii, Kris Wilson, Bernard Pollard, Turk McBride, Brandon Flowers, Dexter McCluster, Javier Arenas, Rodney Hudson, Jeff Allen, Mitch Morse, Chris Jones, Tanoh, Breeland Speaks, Hardman, Thornhill, Gay, Bolton, Humphrey. How many of those dudes have been pillars of our franchise? At best a 20% hit rate. Everyone else complete busts or JAGs.

This is tarded. The guy has become injury prone and has missed 3 games for a hamstring/thigh issue and then he missed more games later because he tore his MCL on the same leg as the hamstring. He gets suspended for steroids and comes back to once again hurt that same knee that he tore his MCL.

Julio Jones was better than Hopkins and he fell off a cliff after he turned 30. You know what happened to him? He was relatively healthy and then became a broke dick. AJ Green was on a HOF trajectory, but once he hit 30 he sucked shit. Those are all recent examples and all of your examples come from years ago. Here's a list of 31 year old WRs that have over a 1000 yards each season starting with the most recent.

2022 - 0 - Adam Thielen (32)(716 rec yards) was 50th in receiving yards and closest to 1000 yds.

2021 - 0 - AJ Green (33) (848 rec yards) was 36th in receiving yards and closest to 1000 yds.

2020 - 0 - Cole Beasley (31) (967 rec yards) was 23rd in receiving yards and closest to 1000.

2019 - 1 - Julian Edelman (33) (1117 rec yards) was 18th in receiving yards.

2018 - 0 - Emmanuel Sanders (31) (868 rec yards) was 27tb in receiving yards and closest to 1000.

So 1 wide receiver that was 31 or older had over 1000 yards in a season over the last 5 years. This doesn't happen anywhere close to as often as you are saying it does.

Also why are you going back to 2000? Brett Veach has only drafted since 2018 and his record has been pretty good after that year.

[Megatron96]

Brett Veach's 2nd round picks (graded):

Hardman: +
Thornhill: +
Gay:++
Bolton: +++
Humphrey: ++++
Moore: n/a

Now, none of them are minuses, which is great. I mean, it's really pretty good, especially when you look at that long list of 2nd round busts in the last twenty years. And Gay and Skyy will probably both add a + maybe two by the end of next season.

Anyway, I think the point was that you really can't depend on even 2nd round draft picks to pan out any more than a 4th or whatever.

[BossChief]

Depending on structure, that’s not bad.

Cap hits

3
10
13
14

Depending on structure, that’s a good deal for KC.

He’s probably still healing from surgery, so I doubt he’s going to have a list of offers while he’s rehabbing. He might not sign anywhere till after the first few waves of FA pass.

I wonder what OBJ would take for 2 years?

[dlphg9]

Originally Posted by Megatron96

What's a truck worth if you don't know if it will run?

DeAndre Hopkins has had career season ending injuries the last 2 years.

[dlphg9]

Originally Posted by Mecca

Hardmans expected deal is 4-40...you wanna give him that?

I run to give him that deal.

[Balto]

Originally Posted by BossChief

Why on earth did you take the time to list a bunch of worthless names to create a false narrative instead of making the information relevant?

Brett Veachs 2nd round picks:

Hardman
Thornhill
Gay
Bolton
Humphrey
Moore

Yeah…I’d say those second round picks are important.

If he was 28…the conversation is different.

Ok let’s just give the Cards #31! That’s when CEH was drafted……see what I did there?

[Balto]

Originally Posted by dlphg9

I run to give him that deal.

Not me

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by Mecca

Hardmans expected deal is 4-40...you wanna give him that?

He's not getting that after missing half of the season.

Expected by whom exactly?

I full expect that missing half of the year to injury, he takes a Juju-type one year deal to try to hit big next offseason. I think he'd be smart to do that, staying in the offense he's been in and try to get the big deal next year assuming he can stay healthy.


Still not a reason to give $20m plus to an over 30 year old receiver.