Joe "Cool" and being elite? Yeah, no.

[mr. tegu]

I admit I realize I have been overestimating him like many others. He is quite good but elite he is not and he definitely hasn't earned his "cool" moniker. And I have heard multiple pundits now say, even after yesterday he is a better QB than Mahomes, but Mahomes is the better player. Talk about moving the goalposts to fit your narrative.

I will give him credit for the Brady comparison though as he has absolutely been carried by his defense and luck like Brady was in his earlier years in winning playoff games. But Burrow isn't as clutch as Brady was even back then.

And for those who think he is even close to Mahomes:

Burrow 0 times 30 point postseason games to Mahomes 8
300 yard games is 1 to 7
TD drives in fourth quarter is a whopping 0 to 14

Good old Nick Wright has more in the video but here is a picture with the most relevant part of Burrow's fourth quarter stats in the postseason. It's remarkable the Bengals have won any games honestly in the postseason.

[penguinz]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

That makes no sense at all, unless you want to have a different definition of 'elite'. I don't know what that definition could possibly be, unless it's multiple rings, and expecting a bunch of guys in their mid twenties to have that is pretty ridiculous.

I define elite QB play as top 5 QB, probable HOF type QB's.

I think that's a perfectly reasonable definition. What's yours?

Elite should be reserved for those that what they do on the field day in and day out make you say to yourself "How the **** are they able to do that and do it consistently."

Great ≠ Elite

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by penguinz

Elite should be reserved for those that what they do on the field day in and day out make you say to yourself "How the **** are they able to do that and do it consistently."

Great ≠ Elite

If the throws that Burrow makes consistently while being battered due to his shit offensive line doesn't do that, I don't know what will. If the things that a healthy Josh Allen does don't do that, I don't know what will.

I think your perception has been utterly skewed by watching Mahomes and not a lot of the rest of the NFL.

And undeniably great absolutely equals Elite, and that's really not arguable.

Grass is green. The sky is blue, unless it's cloudy, and then it's one shade of gray or another.

These aren't really things that are arguable.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by penguinz

Elite should be reserved for those that what they do on the field day in and day out make you say to yourself "How the **** are they able to do that and do it consistently."

Great ≠ Elite

Mahomes at this point is on another level. It’s like saying QBs like rodgers or Peyton (who took a while to win his first SB and a very long time to make his second) weren’t elite because Brady kept winning. Mahomes was elite WAY before he won a super bowl

Burrow has put himself in an elite class of qb. Been in the league for a few years and has already made a Super Bowl.

[penguinz]

You guys are waaaay too generous with your views on players.

No way you didn't grow up with participation trophies.

Elite should be reserved for the best of the best.

[htismaqe]

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501

Mahomes at this point is on another level. It’s like saying QBs like rodgers or Peyton (who took a while to win his first SB and a very long time to make his second) weren’t elite because Brady kept winning. Mahomes was elite WAY before he won a super bowl

Burrow has put himself in an elite class of qb. Been in the league for a few years and has already made a Super Bowl.

That was really my only argument.

If Burrow is elite, then you have to come up with some other way to describe Mahomes. If you say Mahomes is "elite" then Burrow simply isn't. They're not in the same class.

[dannybcaitlyn]

ELITE

[tredadda]

Originally Posted by Rams Fan

I think they'll probably have some drop off in a year or 2 when Burrow's contract hits. It'll be more interesting to see what happens with their offense though as they can't afford Higgins/Chase/Boyd long-term. I think they should move on from Mixon sooner than later.

Also, going by eye test, Burrow hasn't played like shit like Allen did in his 2 PO games this year. He looked like ass vs Miami and he looked like ass vs Cincy. His play vs Miami would have likely cost them the game (along with their defense) if Miami had a QB with a pulse.



Nick Foles is 1-0 vs Brady in the SB, but when you look at the #s, Brady actually outplayed Foles by a large margin. I'd also argue Eli shouldn't have won either SB MVPs (Tyree and Manningham deserve more credit, IMO, with their catches).

Yes, 28-3 is awful. But how much on that is on Ryan vs the defense/Shanahan going conservative on offensive playcalling?



Rivers played on a torn ACL in the AFC Championship game losing by 9 against a team that went 16-0 and had another season end because Schottenheimer went full Schottenheimer vs the Patriots at the worst possible time in 2006 along with a DB fumbling an interception to give Brady a chance to tie the game.

To me, to be considered elite, a QB's play has to elevate those around him. I'd argue Rivers and Ryan both did that.



His defense has helped, yes. But Burrow hasn't played well. He's put the Bengals in a situation to win. As I said, his #s last year were comparable to Jimmy G in the POs. I recognize the defense has been opportunistic and is a large part of their success. But acting as if Burrow is like Trent Dilfer is inaccurate.

If your argument is that Burrow isn't Mahomes, fine. I agree. But if you're going to discredit him, you'd have to day the same with a guy like Brady or Roethlisberger who had good defenses/supporting casts.

1. To me 28-3 is very much on Ryan as he did nothing to stop the bleeding. Not saying the playcalling was great, but he was no rookie and should have done something. Plus his sack that took the Falcons outside of FG range near the end of the game. That was inexcusable. Also at the end of the day, the QB gets the glory for wins and the blame for losses. Eli still has two rings and SB MVPs so clearly it wasn't everyone but him. Plus look at the Tyree catch. Eli did a lot just to get that pass off. Sure Foles is 1-0 against Brady, but that is not relevant as he is a career back up.

2. Rivers has zero SB appearances despite having tons of talent around him. His team failed to make the playoffs one year despite having the #1 offense and #1 defense. Ryan was a bulk stats guy. He was surrounded by a lot of high end offensive talent. I never saw a guy who elevated those around him. Just a guy who won and put up great stats when surrounded by talent.

[tredadda]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

If you accept my premise that at any point in time, there are 5 people on the planet that can play NFL QB at an elite level, this all makes more sense.

Of course there will always be debate, but the debate should be more about who gets included in the 5 in the last couple of spots.

Some guys are there every year, and those are your sure-fire hall of famers. Some guys age out. Some guys climb into that top 5 but can't maintain that level.

So Ryan absolutely had a year or two there where he was in that category. Rivers spent most of his career hovering around the cut-off point, which is what Herbert looks like he'll do so far. Lamar had a year or two there where he was in that category, but his limitations have been pretty well exposed at this point.

Eli had a couple of seasons where he was certainly there, and several more around the cut-off point, and some where he was not elite. Brady has, at this point, aged out it would appear-but christ, it took until age 45 for cryin' out loud. Manning I think fell out of that 5 his last season and smartly hung it up.

Hurts climbed up in there this season. Will that last? Dunno.

But Mahomes/Burrow/Allen are certainly elite, and you can argue the other two slots, but arguing the top 3 is kind of silly right now.

You can argue that Mahomes is MORE elite, and I'd personally agree, but there's not a question of whether Burrow and Allen qualify as 'elite'.

I agree with all of that. My comment was directed to Rams fan who was using the Ryan/Rivers vs Eli argument.

And yes, I know of only three truly elite QBs right now and those are Mahomes, Allen/Burrow (take your pick for who is #2 or #3). From #4-#10 it gets subjective as some are higher on Sherbert than myself while lower on Lawrence than I am. I am also pretty impressed with how much Hurts has improved since he was a freshman at Alabama.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by penguinz

You guys are waaaay too generous with your views on players.

No way you didn't grow up with participation trophies.

Elite should be reserved for the best of the best.

If they're on a trajectory for a gold jacket, the perception problem is yours, not mine.

[penguinz]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

If they're on a trajectory for a gold jacket, the perception problem is yours, not mine.

Again, Elite should be special. Saved for the best of the best in HoF. Just being there doesn't equal elite.

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by tredadda

I agree with all of that. My comment was directed to Rams fan who was using the Ryan/Rivers vs Eli argument.

And yes, I know of only three truly elite QBs right now and those are Mahomes, Allen/Burrow (take your pick for who is #2 or #3). From #4-#10 it gets subjective as some are higher on Sherbert than myself while lower on Lawrence than I am. I am also pretty impressed with how much Hurts has improved since he was a freshman at Alabama.

I am, too.

I think right now, Hurts is probably right at about #4 when healthy. His physical gifts are off the charts.

I don't think he's near 100% healthy (at least not these last few games) and I'm not certain if his mental processing is elite yet, but the tools are all there, and he can make up for any of that with his legs at this point in his career.

[chiefzilla1501]

Originally Posted by penguinz

You guys are waaaay too generous with your views on players.

No way you didn't grow up with participation trophies.

Elite should be reserved for the best of the best.

I don’t think it’s generous to consider Peyton elite even before he got any hardware. Brees and rodgers is a bit generous but I don’t see issues with calling them elite either. I don’t think it’s generous to consider Marino elite.

A Super Bowl appearance in year 2 is a hell of an accomplishment. And out of all the QBs out there he’s clearly separated himself from guys like Allen and Herbert. He’s a clear qb2 and just because he isn’t mahomes doesn’t mean he’s not elite

[Chris Meck]

Originally Posted by penguinz

Again, Elite should be special. Saved for the best of the best in HoF. Just being there doesn't equal elite.

LOLZ.

Sure thing, buddy. You betcha.

[Chris Meck]

I feel like I'm trying to have a conceptual argument with the banjo kid from Deliverance.

[penguinz]

Originally Posted by Chris Meck

I feel like I'm trying to have a conceptual argument with the banjo kid from Deliverance.

Someday you will grow up and realize not everyone is special.

No one is scared of Burrow when they gameplan. They are scared of who he throwing the ball to.

He is a great QB as of today but how much is from his WR bailing him out?