Pittbulls kill 2 year old and 5 month old
 

https://www.gannett-cdn.com/presto/2...pjpg&auto=webp

Full Article: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ng/8219201001/

How do you feel about PittBull's? I posted this because my wife shared this story with me and my son was just recently participating in a "read to sheltered dogs" event where you could adopt a dog (I know brilliant).

I've heard the arguments that PittBull's get a bad wrap, but it seems time and time again they are the focal point of dogs who do these horrible acts.

Bulls from Pitt? Bad news.

What an absolutely terrible story. I don’t know how I would live with myself after something like this. I honestly don’t think I could. I’d probably off myself. And you can rest assured those dogs would be dying a very brutal death themselves.

Just telling Big Daddy to go **** himself before he even makes an appearance in this thread.

Pitbulls make up less than 6% of the dog population, yet are responsible for more than 80% of dog related human fatalities in the US

I don't give a damn what anyone says, I wouldn't trust one of those ****ing dogs for one second

I feel so bad about them that I own one.

I have a pitty mix... dopiest boy on the face of the planet. He is about the size of a big cat but weighs 42lbs and it is ALL muscle. Well, muscle and his giant head.

As for the program where kids read to dogs... that is actually pretty awesome. The dogs get interaction with people, the kids practice reading, and they learn about empathy towards animals and the less fortunate. Glad your kid does that.

In regards to the article... it doesn't state what started the attack (we have all seen countless videos of stupid children hitting dogs and cats until they are provoked into a reaction). We also don't know if these people were shitbird dog owners of if they were well trained pups.

THAT SAID.

If you are gonna get a dog like a Pitty, Mastiff, Cane Corso, Komondor, or any type of dog that is big, muscly, and has a strong sense of preservation... you HAVE to train them. If you have kids... you HAVE to train the kids how to behave around that type of dog.

Crazy that they owned the dogs for 8 years with supposedly no issues and then had a girl grow up to be 2, with still no issues, then just a random occurrence of aggression happened. Not saying I don’t believe that they were pretty normal family dogs but that they’d have a sudden flip of the switch so quickly. Terrible stuff regardless.

Less than 6%, meaning approximately one in 20 dogs are pit bulls? Leaving aside the fatalities stat for a moment, that’s a huge percentage of all dogs.

Shot in the dark and all, but it seems like the two pits in the OP had to be trained at least somewhat if they went 8 years without incident and there's only so much you can do to train an infant and a toddler.

We haven't had a pitbull thread in a while.

Seems like they are everywhere, especially with societies shift towards normalizing thugisms


Very sad for this family and others who have had bad experiences with mad dogs

Hate pitbulls and rots. Kill them all.

I mean this family had them for 8 years with no prior incidents, and then one day they just both freaking snap? Like what the hell?

Clearly this breed is just unstable, end of conversation. As you mentioned, I don’t care what anyone says. Keep those goddamn beasts chained and fenced at all times if you insist on having one.

Make of it what you will, but my opinion of them will never change

I'm wondering if the Pitbulls were watching an episode of animal planet and the kid turned the channel to "Barney"

Thats exactly it... they're prone to snapping, seemingly out of the blue

We've spent as much time training the kids as we have the dog. And the rott loves those kids but he does have an edge to him that labradors don't have.

We've spent thousands on formal training for him and he's a damn well trained dog, but he has a willful streak that most dogs just don't have.

I really have to get on my wife at times to not let the damn dog buffalo her because sometimes he'll give it a thought. He doesn't really lock horns with me anymore but he did until he was about 2 and a half.

Oddly, my guess is that the Pit in question here started in a semi-protective manner. I don't know if he thought he was protecting one kid from the other, or the mother from the kids, but for most dogs like that it isn't a menacing or aggressive instinct that kicks off an incident like this. It starts as a protective thing and then if someone doesn't have the personality to step in and seize the initiative, they just kinda black out and lash out at everything. No question in my mind that one of them was something of a ringleader.

This is also why I won't have 2 working dogs. I don't need one 'feeding' the other one. 1 working dog, one sporting dog. They're just going to be wired so differently that in the event a fuse gets tripped somehow, I only have one dog to deal with and in all probability, I have the 2nd one trying to help me out as best he can.

But shit man, 8 years of no incidents only to have something like that happen - that just ****ing sucks. Something had to happen or there had to have been signs in the past. That just doesn't make a lot of sense.

They went without *REPORTED* incidents. You ever go to a dog park and have some dude's dog just playing WAY too rough while he does absolutely nothing about it? I'm not trying to shit on the parents after having lost their kids mind you... they could be wonderful people and the dog just snapped.

---

I honestly don't believe I've ever known a dog that went 8 years being a loving member of the family and suddenly snapping and killing people without provocation or without some sort of warning.

That's just....horrible.

Can only go off the report here, my man. But, it happens.

German Sheps are cool ass dogs but my wife wants another baby so there's just no way in hell there will be one in this house.

I've owned several Rotts in the past . Used to have a Champion line from "Radio Ranch" and sold pups to soldiers at Fort Bragg.

Mine were well trained and loveable.

Pittbulls ae in a different class as Rotts as far as agressiveness towards people.

Don't necessarily fault anyone for simply not trusting dogs with this kind of reputation - there's no NEED for them to exist; plenty of 'safe' dogs out there for anyone that wants one.

But I'll say this - that rot if mine, hard headed as he is, is the most fiercely loyal and attentive dog. He's aware of everything. If he sees someone walking down the sidewalk and the kids are in the driveway, he'll just go to the end of the driveway and watch everything.

And I don't have a good way to describe his personality apart from just being very mercurial. He's charming as ****; everyone that visits us loves that dog because he's just an interesting and extremely affectionate little heathen.

But again - I don't fault the 'I'll never have one' crowd because they are different. Different to train, different to own.

And ultimately I think that's where people truly fail. They try to pretend like their rotty or their pit is a golden retriever. They aren't; never will be. They're working dogs and they're laser focused. If you can't direct that focus, you'll end up with a bit of a neurotic dog. And a neurotic dog with that kind of bite force is not great.

When I worked at the Water district here in Johnson county I would get this route where every god damn time these 2 obese pit bulls would run loose in the neighborhood over near Johnson drive and Nall/Roe and those bastards would come hauling ass towards me and I had a water meter pit wrench in my hands at all times but I’d have to literally stop my walk, turn back towards them and scold them to get them to leave me alone. They’d do the swarming walk where they attempt a double attack mode and I’d point the wrench at them and come back at them with a firm and loud “NO!” And they’d eventually wander off around the neighborhood elsewhere. The owner was a total dumbass. Older lady that lived on a corner of the street and acted oblivious when I told her her dogs where loose AGAIN. I would’ve felt no remorse if I needed to go swinging Ken Griffey style on those fat mutts.

I had a Radio Ranch Rottie back from 90-96 then lost her in the divorce. First dog I owned that wasn't a bird dog and a lot harder to train.

I'd have offed those bastards. At least shoot their eyes out with a pellet gun. ****em!

Having a Rot/Shep/pit is like having Papa John live in your house.

Sure he's doing his best to train hard to no longer say the N word and does a really good job avoiding it, but eventually he's going to be on a Zoom call and randomly drop it casually.

As the keeper, you have to decide how much risk you're willing to chance.

Yeah - I over-research the hell out of most things and really thought I had done so with my rot. But I still hadn't really prepared myself for him.

Grand champion lines from serbia; spectacularly bred dog (Thunder Mountain actually breeds his littermate as one of their two dams). But he's the alpha from the litter and comes from REALLY high drive lines. So he's very very affectionate but it can be on his own terms sometimes. He's not a dog who, when he's laying down, you oughta walk over to him and rest your head on him like he's a pillow.

We've trained him to simply walk away in those situations where he's uncomfortable, but there's not a ton you can do to get rid of the underlying drive. And you can't come down hard on him for growling either because that's how he communicates - if you train a dog who gives those little guttural grumbles not to do it - he won't. And that doesn't mean anything other than he's simply not gonna warn you before he gets pissed off.

I spent a solid 18 months trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole with mine and it got to where myself and the dog openly loathed each other. It wasn't a path to continue down. But once I learned how to guide him and allow him to still have agency (because he's still a sentient being; free will is still a thing there), I understood better how to train him.

Now he's my freakin' shadow; dog loves the hell out of me. But it took some doing and a completely different approach than what I'd done in the past.

Gotta put the work in with dogs like those.

And I also think my Rot is different. We have a couple folks on the board with dogs from this breeder and from different lines (mine was their first european breeding) and they're evidently super sweet. Dogs have personalities of their own - it just is what it is.

I agree with this as well, but didn't really wanna go down the rabbithole.

Our poop scooper guy comes over and he really likes the Rot. But Winston will make sure he's got the guy's attention when he shows up. And once they understand each other he's just wiggling through his legs and being his best buddy. Our cleaning lady loves him as well but he's GOING to make sure I'm aware she's there and that there's nothing to be concerned about.

I've talked with the poop guy before and he's mentioned that Rots are all pretty similar in that regard but that the pits still make him nervous because they won't stay in front of him. He sees them constantly searching angles and trying to get behind him.

I'm not a fan of pits, but I do recognize that for many it's 6 in one hand, a half dozen in the other. Aight - I'm not gonna try to tell you any different. It's something you're going to bring into your home; to each their own.

Did you get him as a pup ? A one year old can be a little harder to get under your belt but getting an 8-12 week old pup generally has no compatibility issues.

Exactly.

I finally figured out that bird/sport dogs listen/learn because they want to. A high drive working dog is going to listen/learn because he realizes its in his best interests to do so. The desire to please w/ a sporting dog is orders of magnitude higher. Once they understand what you're trying to tell them, they'll move heaven and earth to get it right.

With working dogs, they'll understand what your saying and still kinda think "eh - why the **** should I do that?" So you have to be insanely consistent with enforcement/incentive and over time they'll stop questioning the 'why' of it and settle into a really good equilibrium. And at that point I find them easier to train than sporting dogs because they have better focus and a better attention span.

I didn't necessarily think one was any harder than the other once I understood the necessary distinctions in approach. But man, they really couldn't be much different.

Yup - 8 weeks old.

He was fine until about 9 months old and the testosterone kicked in. And since I'd been training him like a sporting dog to that point, I wasn't prepared for him to hit a rebellious streak. When he did, we were simply at loggerheads. There was a genuine confrontation about every day and I stupidly started seeking them out to 'break' him of it.

My own fault - I needed to be a more versatile trainer. It was a situation where I thought I knew everything there was to know but I clearly did not. I will openly concede that I ****ed that up and set myself back probably a full year.

At this point, however, I'm convinced you could give me a 9 year old wild timberwolf an I'd be able to whip it into shape.

This. Kill them all.

My STUD Rott retrieved better than my Yellow lab. LOL

He was so loyal. I could put him in the back yard and give him the "SIT" command by hand signal. Go in the house and come back out 30 minutes later and he'd be sitting right there with his tough hanging out waiting for me.

has anyone ever had a pit jump a fence and attack their dog?

i live next door to a pit and he plays with my hound, running up and down a chain link fence...he's never tried to jump the fence and i don't think he would, but i'd never forgive myself if i just let them play and bark at each other and one day the pit snapped, jumped the fence and killed my hound

i know pits can jump out of the gym

You should employ the classic antifreeze bowl of chicken for him to snack on.

NOT financial advise!

Not surprised at all. My daughter and I walk to school when the weather is nice and she walks him out there. I'll take him off lead on the way back. Our house is on the water and the dam is about 500 yards from our place. So I put him in a sit on the damn and walked the rest of the way home. Went inside, put his stuff away, made some coffee and a breakfast sandwich. Went back outside to my deck and there he was, still sitting on the far side of the dam looking at the house. I shouted a 'free' call and he was off like a shot back to the house and up the stairs. Came right to his heel position and sat by my leg.

Working dogs are exceptionally attentive and you can do really great things with them when you figure them out. But you have to realize that their brains are in many ways like a muscle - you've gotta get them using parts of it that they aren't hard-wired to use. The biggest hurdle is impulse control.

So an exercise that I recommend for anyone is a delayed gratification drill. Find their absolute favorite treat (for us its pepperoni). Put them in a sit and then stand with the treat open palmed in front of you at chest height. Bring it down slowly and when they make a move for it, close your hand around it. Don't say anything - let them figure it out. Let them nose and lick for however long it takes before they give up. They'll sit back down and look at you when they do.

Once that happens, start moving it back down again with an open palm. Move slowly (like, a foot every 20-30 seconds) until you get to their eye level. At eye level for them it's gonna be hard for them to maintain their sit and if he jumps at it again, close your hand, come back up, rinse repeat.

Over a week or so you'll get to where you can take that all the way to their nose and they won't lunge. Then you teach them a 'look' command so they lock eyes and hold it until you release them. And when you do, they get the treat. Over time you make them hold that look longer and longer until you can get them stock still, ignoring the treat and looking at you for a command for at least a minute. I can get a pretty much indefinite look/hold at this point.

It makes them focus so much on their impulse control. And you do that drill with them for a month and you're working that 'muscle' in their brain to where they eventually become capable of doing exactly what you're saying. Mine will sit and stare at his food bowl for 20 minutes until I yell 'take it' from wherever I am in the house. Because I worked the hell out of his impulse control.

But the bottom line is that if you have a working dog that ISN'T a high drive dog, you probably don't have a very good working dog. Those lines aren't going to be very good. So you need to understand how to work with and train a dog like that.

They're just very different.

And if you're not someone that wants to deal with all that - cool. I ain't mad at ya. Just get yourself a sporting dog. You're probably never going to get the kind of focus you can get from a working dog, but the barriers to entry on training one of those is essentially non-existent because they want so badly to please their owners.

Ban assault pit bulls

Making me want to get another ROTT! Stop it Mr. DJ's Left Nut!

he seems like a good dog but now, i just don't know

He's a timebomb waiting to explode. Take care of it NOW!

Shepherds are well-represented on the dog fatality list but they are also used extensively as police/protection/guard dogs. I have not seen any breakout of how many fatalities are from pets compared to working dogs.

And I’ve had a couple of mastiffs. They were great, loyal dogs and really mellow. Surprised to see that they are a breed of concern. Maybe mine were outliers but all they wanted to do was lie around the house, although they were really protective. Neighbor across the street had a pit that came into the street barking at my daughter and my mastiff came barreling down barking at that pit. I think those barks registered at the Tsunami warning center. But he was just the most loyal, faithful, mellow dog I have ever had and I’ve never heard of them being aggressive.

But it is odd how such a large percentage of fatalities can be attributed to one breed of dog that is such a small portion of the population. It’s like propensity for violence is a genetic trait or something.

Had my Pitt jump my fence to go play with my neighbors kids. He is a little dumb, can really have only one thought in his head at a time, but damn if he isn't the friendliest dog I have ever seen. No signs of aggression even when other dogs are being mean to him.

Curios how big are Mastiff terds ?

Dogs like Mastiffs and yes, Rottys, aren't inherently aggressive.

But what they have is zero margin for error. They're less likely than some shitty little terrier to get a wild hair and try to truly aggressively bite someone. But if they do get that wild hair, the damage is immense.

Beagles, for instance, aren't on anyone's 'dangerous dogs' list, but they can be real shitheads. For my experience, they're more hair trigger and inherently 'aggressive' than a rot. But when they get shitty, they can't rip anyone's throat out.

That's why mastiffs end up on those lists. Very few of them lose their shit, but if they do, the damage is extraordinary. Those jaws are just so powerful that even a small, seemingly momentarily lapse in judgment, will do far more damage than a designed, prolonged, aggressive episode from most any other breed.

My English one was 130 pounds. My French one was about 110. French one was dumb as a box of rocks.

DAMMMNNNN. 130 pound TERD! **** that !

That I could believe. My English one was not huge in the sense of being tall or long but he was extremely solid. A friend remarked, “You could put a turret on this dog.”

He hated moose and he went chasing a moose on our property one time. It was a mother moose with a calf so it wasn’t a big bull moose but still probably about 800 pounds. We could hear him barking and the moose huffing and chuffing. Then we hear this though ‘THWACK!’ It was like hitting a side of beef with a baseball bat. The dog yelps and comes limping back to the house. He limped for almost a week. But to be kicked by a moose and just limp. No broken bones or death? One solid dog.

Well, he didn’t get carried away by eagles.

My sister had a 130 lb Presa Canario. Dumb as a goddamn hammer. Uglier than sin (clearly a botched fighting dog operation - someone mangled her ears trying to pin them or something; my sister rescued her).

And that dog was extremely sweet. We have pictures of my (then) 2 yr old climbing all over her. But then again, that kinda gets back to what I was saying - she was a low drive, lazy ass Presa. Ultimately a fairly poorly bred dog from dipshits who were running a breeding ring with no idea what they were doing. She simply wasn't what a Presa is supposed to be - that's not how they're wired.

Not a fan of those dogs. Definitely wouldn't feel safe with my kids outside if a neighbor had them out. Went to a bonfire years ago at a friend's who had 2 Pits and they were pals for years and suddenly at the bon fire they began fighting each other to the death. No idea why...they were trained supposedly too. Took several people to separate them and get their arms and hands all tore up in the process. One of the dogs died shortly after separation and the other was put down later. No attack towards humans but man they seem unpredictable. Really sad for this family. I'd be done if this happened to my kids. I have no idea if they'll ever recover from this.

My pitt (Staffordshire/Cane Corso mix) is a 92 pound lapdog. When I got him, I wasn't working and I'd take him to the dog park and Happy Hour almost every day, so he's great around people and other dogs. He absolutely HATES the cat that appeared, though.

As an aside, about a week after Catrick Meowhomes appeared, he decided he wanted to meet Blu after his evening poop. I had Blu sit and Catrick started toward us. Got about a foot away and Blu is about to come apart but is still sitting. Catrick make a sudden move and Blue losses it and Catrick heads for a big oak tree, so Blu takes off and the leash is around my wrist and I'm horizontal being dragged 60 feet to the base of the tree. I wish I had video, because I could probably win some money with it.

Depends. American Staffordshire Terriers, smaller pitt bull types, were known as nursery dogs as they were supposed to be incredibly good with children.

Most of the time it is not the dog, it is the person raising the dog. My mom was a kennel manager for quite a few years. Never was bitten by a big dog or a Pitt. All her dog bites came from small cute dumb shit dogs whose owners never disciplined them.

Need more before pics of mom to determine guilt

I’d stick my bull in her pit if you know what I mean

Love my two Pits, sorry. Don’t have these dogs around young children; they demand respect and should never be left alone with young kids.

it's not bad ass any more to own a dog that can't rip your face off.

Some of the most lovable dogs I’ve ever been around but I’d never own one. Too much of a gamble, I just don’t trust them.

These dogs are known to snap and attack their owners. I feel sorry that those two babies died because their parents are so ****ing stupid

Pitties aren't even the most dangerous dangerous dog I have interacted with.

These things are used in Africa to hunt lions.

https://www.marvelousdogs.com/wp-con...-Ridgeback.png

Truly awful and very very sad. I’m not fan of pitts or any of the large working dogs personally. I might consider one later in life when I don’t have small children in my home though so I’m not writing them off completely. That goes for rotts and gsd but I’d probably never take a pit.

Every one of these stories - “they never did anything like that before!”

I wouldn’t say stupid. I would say ill-informed. They wanted to believe and they had 8 years of evidence to support their belief. But nature doesn’t always work that way.

You want to hear about stupid? My wife is a nurse and one of her classmates got a job with a pediatric practice. One of her duties was to check on babies after they had been born. This was almost 30 years ago so I don’t even know if they would do this now but this classmate would visit parents at their home after the birth of a child. So she went to the apartment of a couple in San Diego. Their baby was about 3-4 weeks old. So when the classmate gets there, the baby is on the floor on her back on a blanket as the mom is getting ready to change her diaper.

The nurse sees something out of the corner of her eye on the top of the couch. She looks and it’s a large snake - about 6-7’ long. Boa/python/some type of constrictor. It is just loose in the house! And it comes down to the floor and raises its head up and looks at the baby. The mom says, “He’s been doing that since we brought the baby home and we don’t know why.” The nurse was like, “What the ever lasting ****?!?” She called animal control and got the snake out of the house and told the mom what was happening and the mom had no damn clue!

I swear that our modern “safe” society has prevented some people from being removed from the gene pool that 100+ years ago would have been removed. And they are now free to pass on their stupid genes. Or modern medicine means that of 12 children born, we can expect 11 to reach adulthood and puberty. Our own intelligence has worked to weaken our species.

Tragedy.

I have had dogs loyal as they come, but when my toddler kin and young ones were near I was always on alert. Animals sometimes go animal.

Saying so today is undoubtedly racist and speciest and ablist and all kinds of bad words but you are 100% correct because nature will always triumph over nurture. Genes are a bitch.

Can you explain where racism plays into my post?
Genuinely asking.

Sure. I was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but your post, which I agree with, can be reduced down to nature > nurture. That is, our genetic code will trump whatever training/education/background we go through.

But today there are many who disagree with that philosophy and call it all kinds of names. I don’t agree that believing nature trumps nurture is racist but it is routinely branded as racist.

Consider the following example:

Among humans, males are taller than females. While this is generally true, many today reject this as sexist because it posits a biological difference between the sexes. Further, arguing about genetics and nature has in the past been used for some really ugly uses, such as eugenics. Recognizing this truth, though, does not lead to eugenics.

And along these lines, even though it is objectively true that men are generally taller than women, most people do not understand statistics. As a result, when confronted with a statement like “Men are generally taller than women,” they respond with, “Well, my Aunt Sally is taller than my Uncle John,” and view this as some sort of refutation of the general statement.

Notice how in this discussion most people are arguing using stories, anecdotes or personal experiences. Nothing wrong with that. But when looking at statistics, there always exceptions, outliers on the Bell curve if you will. Basing an argument upon the outliers is logically fallacious but is frequently done.

Anyway, to argue today that nature trumps nurture opens the door to allegations of racism or a whole host of social ills, which is unfortunate because it shuts down debate.

I think you can generally apply nature over nurture to some extent with animals. With reasoning people though its much much murkier.

Thank you for that explanation.

I feel like owning a pit bull is like having 3 kids with 3 different strippers.

You can, and it’s fun for a while, but is it ultimately worth it??

My parents had a German shepherd. When they were having a crew build an out building, she was worried he’d go nuts and think the men were bad, so she briefly introduced him. The very first thing he did? Grabbed the hammer from the foreman’s tool belt and played a game of keepaway.

Great dog, and yeah, he certainly patrolled their property well from things like deer, but he was too goofy and clownish. My parents swore he was secretly a retriever in a shepherd suit.

Horses and dogs are most dangerous animals in the United States.

It is murkier.

We face some very real tensions in this issue. The discussion involves people, which makes it resonate with us much more. Further, arguing that nature > nurture has led to some really bad results. But the more we study genetics, the strong the argument is, in my opinion, that nature does trump nurture. Look at the studies done on twins, particularly the studies done on twins separated at birth.

But even if nature does trump nurture, each individual has rights and they cannot be abridged just because of biological happenstance. Put another way, if Jeffrey Dahmer had a twin, the twin should not be imprisoned just because of his relation to Jeffrey. But if Jeffrey Dahmer had a twin, how comfortable would you be going to his house to watch a football game? That is why such comparisons are murkier when applied to people.

these dogs can start declining fairly rapidly around 8 years old...


Ive known dogs that completely change personalities when theyre old, and get grumpier...


We had a rott that started biting when it got old, and had to be kept away from kids...

I get that some people have these aggressive powerful dogs and have no issues with them, but how can you have them in a home with small children, or leave small children unattended with two of them?

Yeah all dogs can bite, but if your Pomeranian gets pissed off it’s not a killing machine.

I'm just wary of Pitbull's after having a number of incidents with them.

I had a Dobermann for 13 years and she was a great dog. I'm sure there are some bad Dobermann's out there as well. Seems there are a lot of Pitbull's in this country thus a higher number of incidents. No denying that breed can tear some shit up.

I’ve had a Rott, my favorite dog ever aside from my 2 Bull Mastiffs I have now.

I would trust that dog around anyone as long as you weren’t dumb like my brothers friend who came over to watch the Super Bowl around 2000?
He was drunk and was wrestling rough with him outside and I heard my dog growling and barking which he never did and I told the dude repeatedly to leave him alone he wasn’t having fun anymore.

Dude didn’t listen and left with a nasty gash on his nose. I didn’t feel bad for him or blame my dog.

My BM are super sweet dogs and everyone loves them to death. They may as well have their own social media page they are so popular. But if another dog gets snippy with them they respond. You have to know your dogs.

sometimes that breed just snaps and tries to kill. I personally would never own one and this is just a sad tragic story.

I love dogs and have always had them and have met some great Pitt Bulls. But I don’t think I would ever own one either.

But to be Frank the flat out meanest dogs I’ve seen and would never ever ever own are Chows.