Are We Headed For Vermeil 2.0?
 

The way Mahomes can sling the ball shows promise for some high scoring offense. That being said, is the defense going to be able to cut it this season?

One thing that bailed out the defense to a degree the last few seasons was that Smith rarely turned the ball over. Even in a 3 & out situation, MVP usually kicked the ball deep enough to control field position.

Mahomes is neither Green nor Smith. I think he will put up the points Green did but obviously is going to have more turnovers than Smith did. Which is okay. But the defense can't be what it has been.

The defense and Bob Sutton are going to have to learn how to help out when those turnovers happen as they are probably going to happen more than they are used too given the nature of Mahomes. We know there are going to be some great passing plays. We also know that gunslingers will usually throw a few more INT's as well trying to make plays happen. Again, that is okay.

The Sutton defense of "bend but don't break" may have to take a page out of the Denver defense and start really getting after the QB and actually shutting down offenses before they get into FG range, etc.

If our defense is anything like has been during the Sutton era, we could be heading toward Vermeil 2.0 where you're going to have to hope 49 points is enough to win.

Well, they brought in a shit load of new starters on D, so I think the front office agrees?

I'm more worried about Sutton more than the players.

Why?

When he had the players to fit his system his first 3 or so years here, the defense was really good.

So?

I thought Pete was just "DC loony." Apparently it carries over into football takes. That's unfortunate. Get well soon!

Really good? Blew huge lead in the playoff? Twice! 2 of the 4 worst blown leads in the playoffs in the history of football are owned by this guy in a short stint of 4 years.

I'd say we had really 1 decent year of defense from Sutton. And even in that we blew a huge lead in the playoffs.

Sutton's defenses over the last few years have taken on a pattern of playing soft. I am just a bit concerned that in all the defensive issues, the coach of the defense is not being looked at as part of the problem.

We cannot continue playing a 3 man rush, playing CB's 10 yards off on 3rd and medium, consistently giving up 3rd and long and then claiming victory because after a 7 minute drive we held the other team to a FG.

That hasn't really worked well.

When I'm pessimistic, I estimate we're entering the era of the Culpepper Vikings or the Stafford Lions.

When I'm cautiously hopeful, I estimate we're entering McNabb 2.0

When I daydream, I daydream we're charting new territory.

If we go by the statistics, they've had really good defenses. If we go by Pete's feelings, maybe not.


The 14,15,16 defenses were pretty damn good.

Let's hope it's this...I think our offense is going to tear shit up. I just would like to see our defense improve.

Because the entire thing is built on the team riding their luck with turnovers, and that doesn't work consistently against great teams.

Why does the D get to enjoy regular season metrics to get the label of 'pretty damn good,' but the O gets the playoff metrics of a 'complete waste of time and talent?'

They gave up 22 points in a playoff game and lost. Gave up 18 to the Steelers at home, lost. 27 on the road in New England. Lost.

This is starting to look similar to a TrINT like season.

No, it's not Vermiel 2.0

They're actually TRYING to address defensive problems

and the overall talent level is much higher

Will the D be great? No. But it won't be Bartee and Warfield back there either.
Posted via Mobile Device

Actually, it kind of does. Against great teams, unless you have a great defense, it's tough to consistently get stops without turnovers.

I never said the offense was without blame. But the fact is the offense put the defense in great position twice in the playoffs and they choked.

And the Steelers game, yeah 18 points. What was the average ToP for the Steelers that game?

I'm not sure I've ever brought that up or addressed it that way?

I think Vermeil "tried". I am not saying they are shooting for Vermeil style team either. Just questioning if that is what we are heading for at the moment, regardless of intent by the front office\coahces, etc.?

I don't remember seeing TOP on the scoreboard at the end of the game.

In the end, they held the Steeler offense to field goals and 18 points. You've gotta win that game.

Great teams get stops and turnovers. They shut down the run, not hope for a fumble. They shut down the pass, not hope for an overthrown INT.

Yeah, cause the Steelers putting together long, time-consuming drives had nothing to do with that game.

The Chiefs haven't just hoped for them though. They've actually gotten them.

I'll take 10% less of a Vermeil led offense if we can get 50% more than a Vermeil led defense. That might work.

Ok, sure?

Once they held them to field goals they got the ball to the offense which shit everywhere.

we'll be fine.

I'll sum up the defense and Bob Sutton in the Steelers game real easy for you....


Justin Houston (top pass rusher in the league) covering Antonio Brown (top WR in the league) 50+ yards downfield....

Then when the game was absolutely on the line on 3rd down....Justin Houston is yet again covering Antonio Brown instead of rushing the QB


Bob Sutton....

They didn't hold them to FGs, stupid playcalling and abysmal execution by Roethlisberger gifted them FGs.

They consistently, almost inexorably, marched untouched from 20 to 20, and stalled on three horrid passes once in easy FG range.

Probably would. Just think if we forced 1 or 2 punts in the Indy game?

18 points. That offense, scored 18 points.

If my defense gives up 18 points at home, in a playoff game, I don't care what happens, you should win. That games on Andy and the offense.

All defenses eventually suck ass in the playoffs.

Look at the Super Bowl. Look at the Vikings. The mighty Jaguars gave up a ****ton of points to the Steelers.

Ok.

Now do Alex and the offense

I will give the d credit to the point that they often tightened up inside the 20 simply because they had the back of the end zone as a 12th defender

Do you? I think he didn't. I genuinely felt like he didn't care and told his assistants / dc "here you go, do what you can, kthxbai."
Posted via Mobile Device

Except when maybe facing a good defense???

That game, is on the coaching PERIOD! Which is my entire ****ing point.

I will say be made some effort as long as it wasn't at the expense of the offense. But in St. Louis he had a defense in the top 5 the year they won the SB. So he wasn't hell bent on a formula of all offense, no defense.

But when facing a good offense, the defense got lucky to hold them to 18 points.

Going into that game, what were you thinking would have been a good outing for the D?

Top 5 by what metric?

At least this year, I don't think the offense will be that good, and I don't think the defense will be that bad.

Offense:
Green > Mahomes (most likely)
Priest > anyone on our roster
2003 OL >>> 2018 OL
Tony G > Kelce
2003 WR < 2018 WR

Defense:
2003 = giant pile of shit
2018 = Houston and Berry at least are worth something

Greatest Show on Turf won a home playoff game 12-10. They got a SB out of that.

Sometimes you find yourself in a dogfight 'all of a sudden.'

I will say though, I'm not the biggest Sutton fan, but I do think he had his hands tied last year with what he could do.

Wouldn't have been upset replacing him, but I do also feel with better talent he's not bad.

In that game...largely. As was stated... the Steelers did more to hurt themselves than we did to stop them.

fourth in the NFL in points allowed per game (15.1),
first in run defense (74.3 yards per game)
tied for the league lead with 57 sacks.
sixth in takeaways with 36
scored eight defensive touchdowns.

Ah, I'd almost forgotten why I hate Bob Sutton with such a passion until I read this thread.

I mean, seriously, look at our 2003 defensive starters. There's no comparison between this year's D and this pile of shit.

https://i.imgur.com/08f5zid.png

:Lin:

Again, I am not so much worried about the players as I am the guy calling the defensive plays.

Well, first off, do the takeaways and defensive touchdowns count? Seems in this thread, for the Chiefs they don't and are just luck :D

But they were def a good defense. Lets look at the Chiefs in 14,15, 16 to compare though. This may take me some time.

You asked top 5 by what metric and he showed you. No need to start trying to move the goalposts around. The fact is, the Rams D was top 5, the Chiefs D was nothing close.

2014
https://www.pro-football-reference.c...s/2014/opp.htm

2015
https://www.pro-football-reference.c...s/2015/opp.htm

2016
https://www.pro-football-reference.c...s/2016/opp.htm

Great teams don't cough the ball up all the time. Great teams are going to be able to stop your pass rush. You need a defense that is fundamentally good, i.e. not near the bottom of the league in every yardage stat, if you are going to beat great teams that don't turn the ball over.

I'm not moving any goalposts.

The Chiefs D in 2015 were a top 5 defense in points allowed per game. Top 7 in 16.

I wouldn't be. They've already alluded to that they think it's the players fault from last year and not Suttons. Which is why they completely overhauled the defense.

If the Chiefs finish at or near the bottom of the league again like last year, I'll bet money on it that Sutton is sent packing, as there will be no more excuses for him . . . .

Great defenses force turnovers though.

We're going to see.....

Yeah, I definitely agree it's a make or break year for him.

And stop the run and stop the pass......and don't blow huge leads in 1 half of football....

If this offense performs on the Vermeil level and we have even a halfway competent defense, we will destroy people.

I think our defense is MUCH improved this year. I'm expecting we are in the beginning of a dynasty.

I like Veach,Reid,Bienemy and when Sutton has healthy players he'll get her done.Last year Ford was hurt, Houston was 70% and covering , Hali was old , DJ was old and Peters was a non tackling cancer. Thats ALL GONE!

Yes, for sure.

The years that the Chiefs have had good defenses under Sutton, they've done the first and not the second though.

I agree we were gimped from a roster perspective last year. I am looking back over the course of Sutton's reign here and I see a lot of the same shit every year. Playing soft on the WR's. Huge gaps over the middle. Not blitzing in 3rd & long and unfortunately, not making enough key stops when you need them.

I will go back to the first game against Denver at KC. We are up by 7 against Manning. Denver has 0 TO's and 1:47 to go with the ball on their 20. First play he hits a guy wide open over the middle for 20+ yards.

We all know how it ended. And he had a compliment of good and healthy players that game. It was Monday night, at home and you're ahead by 7. You get 1 stop. 1 stop and you win. We lost.

Was that the Charles fumble game?

Yes, a good defense forced a fumble. But I hardly blame JC. You are facing a high powered offense and a high powered defense. You are up by 7 with under 2 min to go. You got 79 yards of free space. You just have to keep them out of the end zone and we didn't.

That's just a bit of a recurring theme I don't care for from Sutton. We saw it against Indy and Tennessee. And to an extent the Steelers. Not getting the stop when you need to stop.

I mean think about how many close games we won because Peters ripped a ball out or Berry picked off a 2pt conversion and ran it back? thre's been a lot of close games we've lost because the defense couldn't lock it down for a drive. and I blame it more on play calling than anything.

Didn't that good defense just give up a go ahead drive under 2 minutes?

That has nothing do with our defense, now does it? Yes they did. Which is why it was even more important that our defense capitalize. You can what if this shit all you want. The bottom line is OUR defense needed to make 1 stop in 80 yards and didn't.

Will go one of two ways. Defenses will play possession ball to throw our timing off. Or will go aerial and try to match us point by point. Pass heavy would be great because dime actually works to our advantage and Sutton can be opportunistic. Peters would have been an int machine. I hope our other guys can pick up the slack. I wouldn't mind seeing us gamble a lot more on D.

Sean Smith was missing from the Denver game because he was serving a theee game suspension

Manning abused his backup, Jamell Fleming

1 player. Can't claim 1 player cause that shit happens every year. He was suspended. Sutton knew it. And I remember him getting burned on the TD and IIRC, he had no help. I could be wrong.

Again though, 1 player, 4 players, no players, Sutton has a tendency to go Andy Reid when we have a lead. I can't think of many games our defense has put their foot on the throat of other teams.

The Chiefs D will be the best in the AFC West this year and top 10 in the NFL.

Mark it down.

This Sutton narrative on CP is so rich... let's take a look at "Sutton's reign":

2013: 19.1 points against/game good for 6th in the league
2014: 17.6 points against/game good for 2nd in the league
2015: 17.9 points against/game good for 3rd in the league
2016: 19.4 points against/game good for 7th in the league
2017: 21.2 points against/game good for 15th in the league

By your own words you just stated that the Chiefs last season were gimped by their roster, yet somehow the Chiefs still managed to have an average defense. Last year was the first year a Sutton defense allowed an average of more than 20 points a game. Last season I think was the first time you could say since Andy Reid took over that the offense was the strength of this team and not the defense.

Not defending Sutton, but his 2013 defense stunk. All smoke and mirrors

His best defense was 2014, his second best was 2015

The playoff loss in 2016 was easily predicted because our run defense was far too soft to handle Pittsburgh. The 2013 loss was expected because our pass defense was atrocious in 2013. The 2017 loss wasn't surprising because our defense was a bit of a sieve

But comparing a defense with Houston, Berry, Fuller, and Hitchens to a 2002-2004 defense is a joke. People are selling the D extremely short

I hope you're right....

Pete Thread

Bob Sutton isn't the best coordinator, but he's not an incompetent ****tard, either.

He surely has his moments.....there is absolutely no way at all, none, no ****ing way that you can ever justify a player like Justin Houston covering a player like Antonio Brown unless Brown is in the wildcat or something. Especially 50 ****ing yards down field.

Sorry, But I don't agree. This Defense hasn't been "good" since the days of Marty. It has been "passable" at best and a "joke" at worst.

The main theme from one season to another? Sutton. I put Sutton in the same category as Dave Adolph. Little more than a waste of time.

Well, the stats again, say otherwise a bit.

If the 90's defense is what we're shooting for, well, I guess good luck.

Sutton does remind me a lot of Adolph and GRob to the point that he seems to try to scheme and "out-think" the other team too often when really you just need to line up and punch ****ers in the mouth. In his defense, I think Reid does the same damn thing.

Too bad about the Ragland injury. I thought Hitchens and Ragland would have made a big difference right from the get go this year.

Defense is a world different from Offense. Or, as someone once stated - "The best Defense is a strong Offense". In other words, you can't sit back and WAIT for something to happen. If the Defense isn't dictating what the Offense can and can't do - then you spend the entire game REACTING. Has nothing to do with the 90s.

Look at ANY successful Defense at ANY level of Football. Attack, Attack and then Attack. Let your backs do THEIR jobs. Let your LBs do THEIR jobs. Let the D Line do THEIR jobs. Don't have your LBs dropping 30 yards into coverage. A decent QB will eat you alive all day - as shown by our past.

You can raise all the hell you want about Marty - or even Cunningham, and it is probably justified - but one damned thing that no one can take from either of them, they were respected all over the NFL with their Defense. Teams HATED coming here to play the Chiefs. Now? It's just another day at the office.

Football is a game. It doesn't change with the decades. It is just "re-invented" to LOOK different. Hell, you "might" fool a team one week - but you won't get away with it for an entire season. Bottom line? It is still played between the hash marks, in the mud, and in the rain and snow.

Let's see our week 1 preseason roster before we get too worried

Yep. Getting pushed around by Steelers and Titans was pathetic. But fans say "oh, only 18 points allowed."