Who's your dark horse?
 

We all know Dorsey is full of surprises on draft day. Why should this year be any different?

T.J. Green, CB/S, Clemson- 6'2" with a 4.34 40. Former WR (very good ball skills). This guy screams Dorsey to me. Flashed in man coverage, but he's only played safety. Was a physical player at the safety position, so with his athletic ability he is a very intriguing potential press man convert. Green Bay made a similar move (safety to corner convert) with Randle last year and the Eagles did it with Rowe (though he had a year of experience in college at corner). He also "models his games after Eric Berry".

Daniel Jeremiah says his buddies in the scouting community tell him Green has a good shot at going at the end of the 1st to a press man team that views him as a corner.

HM: Cody Whitehair, Artie Burns (not as much of a "dark horse" now).

I'm also going to go with a safety for the same reasons as you, but I'm going to go with one with more experience.

Vonn Bell of Ohio State.

He's the best cover safety in this draft. He's a man-cover player and does it well. He can play zone. He's got good size at 5'11" 199 and long enough arms at over 32.5". 4.51 speed is adequate. Excellent vision, footwork, quickness, and ball skills.

His position coach at OSU has stated that he feels Vonn can play CB in the pros and that he "has that skillset."

He's that guy that can play in this scheme in a variety of ways. He can play single-high. He can cover the slot. He can cover outside. He's extremely versatile and has done it at OSU at a high level.

He could also replace Eric Berry IF those contract talks don't work out for the Chiefs.

I give my honorable mentions to Michael Thomas, Tyler Boyd, and Artie Burns.

Andrew Billings or Noah Spence

James Bradberry.

Probably a 3rd round talent but without our 3rd rounder, if we pass on a CB in the first and the rest of the 2nd tier guys have gone in the 2nd, he'd be a very nice fit as a press-man guy and if Gaines were to be able to seize the job, he has the size and instincts to fit extremely well as the hybrid S/Slot Corner that Sutton seems to have developed a fondness for.

Well this was my answer.

He's a Damarious Randall clone, and I'd love to have him.

I like Bell. He could play all over the field.

Green or Bell would definitely be interesting because of both of their abilities to switch from S to CB if needed.

I'd have thought we'd have learned our lesson about trying to convert college safeties to CB years ago.

It don't work.

I wouldn't with bell. I'd use him in the abdullah, sorenson, etc role. Box on 3rd downs, can play some nickel corner etc.

You shut your whore mouth.

Our first round pick.

On a position that we got perfectly credible play from Daniel !@#$ing Sorenson at.

Given your willingness to use first round picks on 3rd safeties and/or slot WRs, where can I comfortably draw the line as to how marginalized a position must be before you would not use a first round pick on it?

Placekicker?
Punter?
Long-Snapper?

Y'know what - perfect solution that would satisfy you and the "trade our first round pick for 15 6th rounders" crowd - Let's trade our first round pick, then trade back with that return, and back and back and back until we can completely re-build our practice squad.

Dick.

I regret to inform you that Von Bell's name does not lend itself to clever nicknames nearly as well as William Burntee's name did.

But hey, Eric Warfield is totally on board with this idea...presuming that he isn't driving around drunk somewhere.

Darkhorse? Artie Burns. He's a little raw for a 1st rounder but some people are saying that he's just as talented as Apple.

The other issue the "Al Golden Effect", in which he seriously under-coached his players.

Mackensie Alexander has the ball skills of William Bartee

So probably a tick better than Sean Smith, then?

I'd love a DB that goes lucking balls out of the air, but that's icing on the cake. Alexander has bad hands, but he does a great job of locating the ball and getting in the way of it.

Look how much we use 3 safeties.

I'm thinking more deone buchannan. Sorensen is ass

That's bullshit. He clearly showed the ability to locate and make a play on the ball when given the opportunity. He just didn't have many and never came up with an interception, so his lack of ball skills is overblown.

A corners first objective is to keep the wr from making catches. Alexander is pretty good at that in straight routes.

The more I read on him I wonder how well he'd be chasing those guys that turn on a dime. He doesn't have Sean Smith's size to just swallow them

I gave two very recent examples that say otherwise.

I wouldn't do it with Bell, but Green has all the tools to be a great press man corner.

Go watch his tape. He gives up the inside way too easy. He did it a lot vs NC

And there's about 509 more that didnt.

I don't MI d trying but I'd prefer not too

Well, that could be alot of reasons other than just getting beat.

This is a different league now. It's happening a lot more often (both ways) with success.

How is it different in that aspect?

It's possible but those 2 success stories seem more outliers

Not sure I like the idea of TJ Green. Like his size/strength/speed etc but he's played safety one year and barely played CB.

Like Vonn Bell more if we go that route. More experience, better cover skills, more production.

Because it's become a league about traits (and it's always been about trends).

You can take college safeties like Randle and Rowe with the elite measurables and traits to play corner and you let them run around and chase these athletes at the WR position. It isn't hard to coach a guy to play press man. That's why they were able to have success their rookie seasons despite the lack of experience.

For the record, I'm not saying we should do this, but this is the way it's being done right now, and I think it's a possibility we should consider Dorsey going with.

But yet you strongly prefer WJ3 and Apple over Alexander. Strange contradiction. :hmmm:

LMAO So true

I was neutral on Alexander until word began leaking that he was a bad interview.

Say what you want about "smokescreens", medical re-checks, etc. but character assassination is generally something teams avoid leaking, unless it's just unavoidable.

What I was pointing out is TJ Green is extremely raw and I don't want a project at 28. I think he's a Dee Ford type prospect that will take time wheras Bell is already experienced and ready.

And no I don't think it's a contradiction at all. Bell is 5'11 with arms that are longer with a much stronger body (16 bench reps). Plus he's not having reports of attitude or football IQ questions.

He's a good guess. I think he's a high 2nd rd prospect who could move into the first Rd. It wouldn't shock me since he's got a the physical matrix we like and our DB coaching staff is elite and proven.

One inch, if that, for both. Alexander has more polish than those guys (WJ3/Apple), which was another reason I called it a contradiction. Not to mention he plays much bigger than Bell does. Bell lacks the physicality to go from FS to press corner. Bells reports of being "soft" are more concerning to me.

Also, I'll say it again, it doesn't take much experience to run around and chase a guy in man coverage, so the experience isn't THAT much of a concern for me. I love the traits and the fact that he's a former WR that moved to safety and showed physicality in the run game.

I have to say though, this shit about Alexander is being completely overblown. Even the guys that reported it aren't as down on him as you guys are after it. He said he was the best corner in the draft and some teams obviously had a problem with it. BIG ****ing DEAL. Guy has absolutely no red flags character wise previous to that. Again, he doesn't need a great football IQ to play corner for us.

You know who did the exact same thing? Dee Ford. And Dorsey had no problem with it.

And we are still waiting for Dee Ford to finally break out. I've said it many times man. I don't want Dee Ford's in the first Rd this anymore. First or second year of a rebuild? Sure. When the team's in win now mode? **** no.

That's why I like Vernon Butler and WJIII so much. They are ready now and have very few cons.
I'm not a big fan of Vonn Bell, and I think he's a 2nd rd talent. I could see him being taken as a "dark horse" but I agree he has some holes in his game. Same as Artie Burns. He's got good characteristics, but he's weak as hell (7 bench reps) and he's hot and cold. But Dorsey could take him bc he fits the measurables matrix.

Dorsey dominated the draft last year bc he took players with few cons from their play on the field, their measurables and attitude. He didn't draft that way before and look at the difference?

I want to draft a Marcus Peters/Mitch Morse this season, not an Eric Fisher or Dee Ford development prospect.

Lol the comparison I made with Dee Ford ends there. It doesn't mean Alexander can't contribute right way. I don't see how you can say he isn't more polished than those two. He's a better cover corner than both those guys right now.

Dorsey didn't change his philosophy. He took the BPA and it just so happened to be two guys that could contribute right away. I don't think Dorsey is going to pass a guy up because he isn't 100% ready day 1. He's not short sighted.

Not every draft pick can come in and contribute right away. Sometimes you have to take the guy that might take a little time because he's simply the better option.

As for Dee Ford, I think he's right where Dorsey expected him to be going into year 3, just like Fisher.

Riddick has Hargreaves falling to Carolina in is new mock, with us taking Ragland. So hopefully Hargreaves

Hate to beat a dead horse, but I'd like to think Dorsey expected more outa Dee Ford. From what I can see, he's added NOTHING to his pass rush repertoire, and although he's not running away from ballcarriers anymore, he's not exactly a tackling machine. As I've said before, I just don't think the guy is dedicated to the game of football -- as I understand it, he's a rather bright kid who has many other interests. Anyway, I'm gonna be real surprised if he turns out to be a solid NFL linebacker....much less a dominant pass rusher.

As per my sleeper, it'd probably be that we draft an Eric Berry replacement. Someone like Sean Davis might fill that bill. Davis IS a tackling machine and from his tape he does kinda remind me of Berry what with his "in the box" play.

Another dark horse might be Noah Spence.....just in case Mr Ford doesn't progress, plus it'd be additional insurance if Houston misses a chunk of the season.

I'd take Ragland in a heartbeat. He's about the first Alabama LB I've seen that looks like he knows what he's doing out there!

I've always seen the opposite.

There's no sense in running smokescreens on medicals because teams can check for themselves and find out. But if you leak 'bad interview' often enough, maybe you can get a team or two to think he was just having a better day putting you on when you interviewed him.

Medical's don't change - they are what they are. When Jaylon Smith's medicals are getting leaked as terrible, it's because his medicals are terrible and its empirically provable. When you are leaking that guys are coming off standoffish, you can just represent that you asked the right questions and some other team interviewing him didn't.

I'm not sold on WJIII, what I'm reading says he isnt overly physical and is more comfortable facing the action... we need guys who can smoothly transition from their backpedal, who can turn and run

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say. :D

I don't recall a time when bad interviews leaked that weren't true. The same thing happened with Geno Smith and look how that turned out.

Who knows where it's coming from. Could be from teams, another corners agent, a team wanting him to drop to them etc.

**** me, let's just have the dam draft. This is crazy

If Ragland falls as some suggest, I still don't think the Chiefs pick him. We have Ramik Wilson, DJ Alexander, Justin March and Josh Mauga vying for a spot beside DJ. Ragland would just be a luxury at that point albeit the talent level would be raised.

My take on the three corners most associated with our projected pick at 28:

Pros
Alexander - best cover skills and "shutdown" ability
Apple - best tackler of the three, very technically sound and saavy
Jackson III - phenomenal athlete, great ball skills and outstanding recovery speed/ positioning, game changing ability

Cons
Alexander - Attitude and classroom concerns, confident or cocky?, questionable ball skills, size concerns, benefitted from suppoting cast?
Apple - draws flags for physicality in press, takes poor angles in run defend, benefitted from supporting cast?
Jackson III - experience and lesser competition faced. Risk taker who can get beat. Not overly physical.

If corner is indeed the pick and all three were available, I go with WJ III for his game breaking ability, ball skills and athleticism.

Add this for Alexander under cons: benefited from raping receivers 15 yards down field frequently which will draw a plethora flags in the NFL.

That's bullshit. Your entire assessment of Alexander is so strange. You also said he would fit best in a zone scheme.

Then again, you also said Hargreaves was overratted, so maybe you have a bias against guys on the smaller side. Or maybe you just suck at evaluating CB's.

At least RunKC's issues with Alexander are the normal complaints.

You sure we're not talking about Peters again? Or Smith, for that matter? Smith absolutely physically mauled guys - it was his calling card.

Unless you're just blatant (and frankly, stupid) about it, you'll be fine. Don't be Brandon Browner.

Any press-man system is going to have its fair share of PI flags; they're a cost of doing business. I don't see Alexander being significantly more prone to them than any CB we'd want in this system. The system needs physical DBs, if you aren't willing to get into a WRs body, you're probably going to fail in this system anyway.

Its not bullshit. He does it all the time. Watch his games. He's got to clean the contact up down field or he's ****ed in the NFL.

I'd take Kalan Reed before Alexander in this scheme and I have Reed rated as a 2nd rounder.

Robert Nkemdiche is probably the biggest dark horse. Yes he seems off the rails, but everybody thought Peters was that guy last year. Kicked off the team, huge temper, couldn't work with others, etc. It scared me last year bc we heard the same thing about Baldwin in 2011 and it burned us.

There's no denying Nkemdiche is a top 10 talent. Dude is super fast off the line and everyone he played had to double him constantly.

I wonder if Dorsey has sent Ballard to Mississippi yet..

Totally different issues with this cat. This dude jumps out of windows because he is high and has ties to some shady people. As soon as this guy gets paid, lookout.

With the DL depth this year, Nkemdiche is off my board....

Peters situation is nothing like that dipshits. Peters didn't throw his teammates under the bus. He owned up to it and said that he could understand why he was kicked off and that he didn't blame his coach.

Going to add one maybe people don't expect to fall, but I do. Corey Coleman. Some insane talent at D-line and some expected moving and shaking in the first round could push several receivers down further than expected.

This is definitely a possibility, but how much would a first round WR play with Maclin, Conley, Streater and Andy's favorite (Wilson) ahead of him as well as WR's never doing much year 1 of Andy's system?

I think the receiver run starts with Houston at 22 and arguably Washington and maybe Indy nab the first receiver off the board. Minny and Cincy have needs at WR so I could see the likes of Treadwell, Fuller, Doctson and Coleman all being gone by pick 24/25.

I actually think it is the DL talent which will drop along with some linebackers. There are some enigmas with regards to scheme fit and some guys are tough evaluations:
Ragland, Floyd, Lawson, Nkemdiche, Lee, Robinson and Reed could arguably land anywhere from pick 9 to pick 45.....

If you want my honest opinion, I think Conley is the only one worth talking about.

Wilson, while a nice story, is mediocre. He would function ok as a slot, but he's not a guy I think is going to get all that much better than he is right now. He is what he is. He's not a play-maker, he hasn't shown that ability. He can get some catches in this league and he's worth a roster spot. I don't think he should be starting by any means, especially on the outside. I wish he had something as a returner. I think he's a quality #4.

Rod Streater, he's a stop-gap. I wanted the Chiefs to pick him up because he has shown that ability in the past to be a #2 in this league. He's on a 1-year deal. He had some problems the past couple of years. I don't know if he will ever be the same player. I don't think you head into a draft counting on that.

Conley is interesting to me. I think his ceiling is a #2, but he has to develop. He didn't do much as a rookie. At this point, he's another #4 guy. He's a guy that can go deep, he can be a player in the red zone, but he hasn't made an impact on the outside as a starter in regular sets. I want more from this kid, he's got the athletic ability and pretty solid hands. Even if I think Conley develops as a #2, that doesn't preclude taking Coleman in round 1.

Andy Reid likes an explosive offense. Explosive offenses, they all have that quality slot. I'm not talking about just a good player, I'm talking about a slot receiver that leads the team in receptions or is at least in second place. You look at Green Bay with the ascent of Randall Cobb, you look at the Emmanuel Sanders, and so on. If you can make your offense that much more dynamic, as a playoff caliber team, then why not do it?

This isn't a team with "needs" as much as it is one with opportunities to strengthen units. The Chiefs have 3 corners that can step in day 1 and play. The Chiefs pretty much have a day 1 ready defense. The biggest hole is maybe at OG, so do you take Cody Whitehair in one? Or, do you make yourself more explosive as a team and worry about guard later?

That's kind of the deal with WR early, be more explosive offensively and quit trying to be "just good enough." We saw what "just good enough" got the Chiefs. The Patriots acquired a top-level tight end even though they already had one, they made themselves more dynamic. You never stop trying to make a team better.

For all the arguments for a CB in round 1 from this board, it sure gets stupid around here about WRs. You have Peters, Gaines, and Nelson at CB. How is that worse than Maclin, Wilson, Conley at WR? The truth is, it isn't. Just as much as a 1st round CB can make the defensive backfield better, so too can a WR make that group better. Neither group needs a starter, but a better option than currently in place strengthens the unit.


Now with regards to a run on receivers in the 20's, that's debatable. The quality of defensive lineman and the moves I expect to be made for corners in that range trumps the quality of receivers. We'll see how that plays out. I'm just saying that it is very possible that those are the reasons a player like Coleman drops to the Chiefs at 28.

Wilson has had a few missed big plays, but he's also had some big catches and has shown to be a good RAC wr in this system. I think you're a little low on him, think he has a good year this year.

I think he needs to be in the slot and in the DAT role a little more though. Conley or whoever else they add, needs to become the 2 outside. I'd think Conley is the heir apparent with what they had in Philly with Desean and Maclin. Maclin at the Z with Conley at the X running those deep posts and deep routes seems nice.

But I do think crow is on to something. They're ok for the most part for starters, but they need to look at areas they can upgrade. Unless one of the big corners fall to them or they trade up for one, I'd start looking purely BPA in the first.

They've got multiple picks to fill some holes later in the draft, they can swing for a guy early.

So while Coleman is a good idea, I'd counter that Braxton MIller could come in and play that slot/Edelman type role and be really successful for the Chiefs from day 1.

While I think Alex Smith has improved as a QB who looks downfield, as long as he's the QB, this offense will not be explosive.
If you're investing draft resources to improve the offense, I'd start at O-Line to improve protection, which would improve efficiency, which is Smith's strength.

This team is going to win with an offense that supports the defense.

That is why improving the quality of corners is more imperative than reciever, IMO.

They did upgrade the OL with a RT, but if theyr'e gonna do anything in the playoffs, they need to be more explosive.

You mean like the Broncos?

Exception, not the rule.

Well rounded teams win.

The Patriots weren't explosive, in any of their wins..
The Seahawks weren't explosive.
Neither were the Giants in any of their wins.
Neither were the Steelers in their first win with Roethlisberger.

They well rounded, but with defense and efficient offense.

The pats last decade, which has included 1 SB win, they've been explosive on offense. Seattle and NY had the ability to be explosive.

Explosive doesn't have to be throwing it everydown, but the chiefs have to become more explosive offensively than they have been the past 2 or 3 years.

IMO any offense can be explosive if you have the weapons. Matt Cassel ran a top 10 offense with good coaching and elite talent in NE in 2008.

In a WCO, we have a coach to make QB's look better, but we don't have complete weapons. Maclin alone took this offense to another level last year. Charles, Kelce and Maclin are as good of a trio as any in the NFL. Add another good WR (Conley IMO) and we're good to go, especially with an above average OL.

I do agree that you need to have good defenders if you don't have a franchise QB. That's why I want to stack the defense with another CB and pass rushing interior DL with our first 2 picks.

100% agree.

Every one of those teams won by running the ball, or moving the chains with the short passing game.
They won with efficient offense, not explosive offense.

Sure, they all had big plays mixed in, but they weren't explosive like the Packers.

Even the Ravens with Dilfer, and the Bucs with Johnson, had explosive plays.

But none of them were explosive offenses.

Agreed.

This offense should be more efficient in 2016 due to the upgrade in blocking (Mitchell Schwartz to this point) along with the maturation of Conley, Wilson, Ware and West.

But they don't need to be Top Ten in yardage to win a Super Bowl.

There have been explosive offenses win superbowls recently as well. Last year's pats, the broncos had a top 5 offense of all time make it to the superbowl.

Not the chiefs will never be a rodgers run explosive offense, but they have to have more quick strike ability.

I think that's the next step this season.

G or WR really isn't surprising anymore.

WJIII and Apple will be gone. It's highly unlikely either fall.
Unfortunately Vernon Butler will major likely be gone as well. Detroit is looking at DL and GB wouldn't pass on him after losing Raji and having 4 DL in their current rotation.
Darron Lee is going to be gone IMO due to his value in today's NFL, I think Coleman is gone too (Houston apparently loves him).

At this point it's the troubled kids (Nkemdiche/Alexander), maybe Ragland, 2nd tier CB's, 2nd tier DL and 2nd tier WR's that are essentially Rd 2 prospects and projects (Braxton Miller/TJ Green).

Vonn Bell, Karl Joseph, Cody Whitehair, Josh Garnett, Reggie Ragland. That's looking like your best available.

Take Alexander and go about my business

I never said that explosive offenses don't win SBs.
I said that you don't need explosive offense to win.

And quick strike ability is a necessary part of an efficient offense, which is why I noted Smith's improvement in looking downfield.

I also wasn't arguing against a receiver.
I was pointing out what I perceive to be the flaw in logic in the post that I initially responded to.

I agree, especially with the beginning. There's multiple ways to get it done in the nfl.

However we may feel about smith, I'm sure the front office feels enough weapons around him can allow him to succeed.

Respectable opinions and thoughts guys. I take one note with milkman's last post that I think hits the nail on what I meant by "explosive," when he states "quick strike ability is a necessary part of an efficient offense." That element, that quick strike ability, is what the Chiefs have been missing. They haven't really struck fear into teams yet. You need that "other guy" that can take it to the house on any given play. That's the type of player Coleman is, or a Will Fuller, Braxton Miller, etc. You have to have multiple play makers IMO. The Chiefs have a good run game, they have a good #1, and they have a good TE. It's time to add that guy that keeps defenses from loading the box and rolling double coverage on Maclin. That's my take, anyhow.

It doesn't have to happen in round 1, but I think it should be a priority pick.

Spence or Whitehead in the 1st. Houston will miss time...and this is Hali's last season. Whitehead can play multiple positions in case of injury. That's an important trait in a 19 game season....who is the back-up LT? Dorsey will go for functional value @ 28.

1. I trust John Dorsey. He's been incredible.
2. I expect the Chiefs to draft a DB in this draft in round one. Some DB Dorsey has a top 15 grade on will be there. Probably a CB, could also see Vonn Bell.
3. As for my dark horse, I'm going with a big fatty. Either some OT or there is a guard that they are in love with. Fisher is entering his final year/years. And we all know how Dorsey like to draft with an eye to the future. So my DARK HORSE is Joshua Garnett, G Stanford. This kid has 10 years written all over him in the NFL. Plug and Play!

I'm sold we will take a DB
- Artie Burns
- Vonn Bell
- Alexander

We might take a guard
- Whitehair
- Garnett

We could take a pass rusher/OLB
- Kamalel Correa
- Leonard Floyd
- Su'a Cravens

We might take one of the receivers if they tumble down the board
- Corey Coleman
- Josh Doctson
- Will Fuller


Not sure how big of a dark horse any of those picks are, but I feel that one of them will be the pick.

I agree accept I don't think pass rusher will be an option

I except this as an answer

It's Monday morning jason. I've had a cup of coffee aND al ready seen 3 whackadoo assholes in my chair. Don't start that shit

Some smoke out there about the chiefs and Treadwell.

Im not sure what to think about that. Someone tell me how to feel

I'd love it if we could get him, but basically wouldn't we have to sell the farm to move up high enough to get him? I don't think I'd put too much stock in that rumor.

Very similar to De'Andre Hopkins. Does everything well but doesn't have long speed.