Glenn Dorsey: From Tradable Asset To Key To The Defense
 

A few months ago, when Scott Pioli and the Chiefs first decided they would run the 3-4 defense this year, Glenn Dorsey seemed destined for one of two things: a trade, or failure.

Dorsey's skill set and body type just do not fit what most people think about typical 3-4 defensive lineman; he is not heavy or squat enough to play nose tackle, and he is not tall and athletic enough to play defensive end.

3-4 linemen are supposed to take up blocks and let the linebackers do the work, not penetrate and blow things up in the backfield, and that is exactly what Dorsey is best at doing.

We weren't the only one's who made this connection—that Dorsey's unique skill set would go to waste in the 3-4—the Chiefs realized this too, and made adjustments.

“A lot of people are thinking this is a straight 3-4 defense and it’s not,” said Dorsey. “Being at an end is a new place for me, but it’s not going to be a classic 3-4 end on every snap."

"There's a place for me on this defense."

So here's the plan, the Chiefs will be implementing some sort of 3-4/4-3 hybrid that was run in Arizona last year by defensive coordinator Clancy Pendergast that was called the "4-3 Under" by the Cardinals linebacker coach, Bill Davis.

Glenn Dorsey won't be lining up heads up over the offensive tackle, in the five-technique, on most downs. Instead, he will be shaded slightly inside, between the guard and tackle.

Lining up in this manner will allow Dorsey to play a more typical 4-3 defensive tackle role and shoot the gap when the ball is snapped. Disrupting the offense in this way allows Dorsey to utilize his unique skill set to the fullest extent.

Playing outside of him in the DE/OLB role will most likely be Tamba Hali, who on most snaps will solely be rushing the passer. He mainly will be left one-on-one with the left tackle and is expected to be able to beat him on most snaps, especially given he will start from a two point stance most of the time.
With Hali occupying the left tackle, and nose tackle Tank Tyler most likely double teamed by the center and right guard, Dorsey will be left one on one with the left guard. Dorsey left one-on-one with a guard is a match up I will take any day of the week.

This combination of rare positions side by side will not only confuse the defenses, but will apply pressure on the quarterback's blindside from two different positions, causing even more chaos.

Getting this kind of pressure from a defensive end in a 3-4(ish) scheme is very unique, and is sure to cause confusion for the opposing offensive line. Only the Cardinals have run this scheme before, and is still very new to the NFL.

Hopefully the Chiefs will be able to exploit this new fad to the fullest, much like the "Wildcat" formation has done thus far.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...fense#comments

Yup. Been saying this for awhile now.

The Chiefs are not going to ask Dorsey to do something he can't do.

And Derrick Johnson runs free...or takes on a fullback at the worst.

So that leaves Jackson one on one with the RT which I think he has the advantage over a lot. Then again the TE is often on that side putting him in two on one... but if he can hold that well that really opens it up for Vrabel to come around... or that puts both of them in one on one which seems to be a good situation for us. IF Edwards or Tank can play NT well I think this defense could shock some people.

Of course Vrabel and Hali aren't both going to rush at the same time on every down.

The key is definitely NT it all comes down to how Edwards and Tank play...

They play bad this defense is as bad as last year.

They play well, like Rustshack said this defense could surprise some people.

As simple as that really...

This is a nice wrinkle...

This is how I figured it would work. Then everybody on this board seemed to think Dorsey was ****ed in the 3-4 so I assumed I was an idiot. I hope I wasn't. As much as I would love the offense to find an identity, it's the defense I miss watching. It's been a decade since I took pride in our defense.

While I don't think it's a good idea to give information like this away on teh intrawebs where anyone can read it, it's good to see and know that in the case of the defense; there is a plan.

And with proper execution, it sounds like a damned good one.

I imagine this was all stuff that any decent offensive scout would have identified anyway.

Sing that song!

:clap:

True. I guess Pioli has me in "CIA mode".

"SECRETS SAVE LIVES"!:D

Don't worry... I'm sure ol' Clancy has a few tricks up his sleeve, courtesy of The Don.

Can you imagine a tell-all book from Pioli, many years down the road, when all of the politics of the game that he has used or created are finally laid bare?

If he brings KC to Dynasty Status, this guy is a Legend. The Greatest. The best to ever do the job. That's some heavy shit.

Will Dorsey have more of an impact than Sims?

Sims??? WHo is this Sims you speak of?? The real question is will he rival the almighty Siavii?????

Sims and Dorsey were selected in the top 5. Jr. was selected in the top 1/2 of round 2. Hali is not an OLB, Dorsey is not a DE. This will be interesting.

I like the energy an article like this creates, but I gotta question a couple aspects of it.

...that leaves Hali one on one with the left tackle almost every down, a battle he should win most of the time...I thought that experiment went down in history as a collosal fail last year? I also read elsewhere that Vrabel and Hali flip flopped positions and that Hali is practicing at lolb, I think if he has a chance in this defense it is on the strong side. jmo though



...Dorsey matched up one on one with a guard is a matchup I will take every day of the week...really? I understand he will be helped by shading him, but where he was lined up was only part of the problem, he needs to step up the intensity of his play and do the things it takes to beat the man across from him. Hopefully, Fanaca, Mawae and a few others taught Dorsey enough "lessons" about what it takes to succeed in the NFL that he put in alot of work and is a new player this year. He will never be a bust, but may never play to full expectations either.

Should be the most interesting year in quite awhile.

If this works, think about how the secondary FINALLY get's it's shot to be play makers on a more consistent basis!

I've said it a thousand times; you get Flowers a legitimate pass-rush, and it's a whole new world in the Chiefs secondary.

Let's do this thing!

Yeah, but Hali will be starting off the line, so the tackle won't be able to get his hands on him right away. With Hali moving well, he should be able to get by the tackle. Or the tackle may moved over and engage Dorsey, leaving Hali open to the QB.

This kind of reminds me of when our defenses use to have good schemes. It has also made me decide, just this very minute, that Gunther had much less to do with our good defenses and it was mostly Marty and DT.

Gun = Pres. Bill Clinton.

Marty = Rommel.

CP = Stalin.

Lamar = Pres. Woodrow Wilson.

Someone there has to get broken, it's just the natural dynamic. Peterson won the battle and lost the war.

The argument is over. Blame Marty all you want for the "Marty years" but Peterson hasn't accomplished JACK $#IT without him and Marty has gone on just fine...

The problem is that Hali's best asset was his quick burst at the snap, which made him an effective pass rusher against RTs who generally aren't as quick as the LT.
That burst was negated by the quicker LT.

Rushing from a stand up position is more about speed, and the question is, has the weight loss improved Hali's speed enough to make him an effective pass rusher from the ROLB spot?

I have my doubts.

Well.......duh.

I've said this many times.
I'll say it again.

****her did more to contain DT than any opposing OC ever did.

FYP... Yeah, I guess I ad not really come to that realization on Gunther before. Under Marty he would try different things, have decent schemes, and just go crazy. Maybe he can call an aggressive defense, but I don't think he can design one. And, anyway, he's just a bat-shit crazy German...

No offense, of course... I wouldn't call you bat-shit... At least not to your face...

The only problem is Hali has always played "below his weight." He's just not strong at all. For a guy as big as he is he carries no strength on gameday.

It's his only chance. He's got the speed and athleticism of a legit DE but he's just overwhelmed on gameday. I don't know if it's instinct, hate, drive, strength, or a combination of all but he's consistently pushed around by below average T's...

He probably is the one who best knows the relationship between Parcells and Belichick, being ones son-in-law and the others work partner for years. I bet he's got some pretty funny stories to tell.
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Man that seems so familiar. Almost like I wrote that myself here months and months ago, and had to argue with people here about it.

Oh wait, that's exactly what happened! DOH!

I should go back and find all the people that insulted me for saying this.

wrong. sims was number 6 overall.

WEll not only wrong there, Dorsey won't be playing head up defense tackle (end) in this defense. Yet people keep saying it.

yeah, I kinda glossed over that one.

This article was written by TJ Gerrity. Never heard of him so I wonder if he's basing this off a Chiefs camp report from someone or if he's at camp? Or is he just assuming the Chiefs will run the same D Zona did? Maybe someone at camp can tell us how Dorsey is lining up when he's on the field.

PhilFree:arrow:

Seeing how Dorsey couldn't get off blocks last year, play end in a 3-4 might be what he's good at.

I was up there several days last week, and that is what they are running. It's still 1-gap, meaning very little changes for the linemen and their responsibilities.

Cool and thanks!

PhilFree:arrow:

Vrabel and Hali have recently switched spots in the 3-4. Vrabel is now over the Left Tackle, and Hali is over the Right Tackle
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You've been giving some good tidbits of info, TRR. Thanks! Here's a question for you. Is the ROLB lining up way wide so the LT has a harder time getting to him to block him? I think that's a trait of a 4-3 under type of D.

PhilFree:arrow:

Pendergast moves both OLB's around. I've seen both Vrabel and Hali line up right over the tackle, I've seen them line up wide, and I've seen them line up inside the DE even...

They move around quite a bit. More often than not though, I would say both Hali and Vrabel line up rather wide outside both O Tackles.
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Dorsey's too talented not to make a solid contribution to our line. He'll be just fine.

I think Dorsey will be ok but I still wouldn't expect big sack numbers from his position. What worries me more is what Rausch mentioned....Tamba struggled when he was on an island against left tackles in the past, why do they expect it to be any different now?

Dorsey's alot stouter than Hali, for one. Dorsey is close to 300 lbs.

I believe his question was why we would think that Hali is going to fare any better against the LT as a rushbacker than he did as a RDE?

QUOTE:"Glenn Dorsey won't be lining up heads up over the offensive tackle, in the five-technique, on most downs. Instead, he will be shaded slightly inside, between the guard and tackle.

Lining up in this manner will allow Dorsey to play a more typical 4-3 defensive tackle role and shoot the gap when the ball is snapped. Disrupting the offense in this way allows Dorsey to utilize his unique skill set to the fullest extent.

Playing outside of him in the DE/OLB role will most likely be Tamba Hali, who on most snaps will solely be rushing the passer. He mainly will be left one-on-one with the left tackle and is expected to be able to beat him on most snaps, especially given he will start from a two point stance most of the time.
With Hali occupying the left tackle, and nose tackle Tank Tyler most likely double teamed by the center and right guard, Dorsey will be left one on one with the left guard."


What does Dorsey being 300lbs have to do with the fact that Hali is still left on an island against the LT?

I guess I thought the D would look something like this...

Jackson, Tank/Edwards, Dorsey/McGee
Hali, D. Johnson, Thomas, Vrabel

Am I wrong?

Your wrong and your right...it sounds like we will be running a hybrid sort half 3-4 and half 4-3 with supposedly unpredictable personnel changes and matchups. Hopefully it will work and cause some confusion for a while.

I don't know how many times i've said this. Maybe somebody will actually listen now that is written in an "official" article. :rolleyes:

Same here krab. But in this very thread you still have numb nuts acting as if it went right over there head.

And Tamba is lining up outside of the right tackle I believe. And Tamba had an off year last year, that's not uncommon. People writing the guy off after having two very solid seasons, both his first two in the league, need their head examined.

Cool, I wasn't clear on it, but the point still stands, that HALI, will have help ahead of him, helping free him up.

Ughh, is Hali really going to be on the right side? I think we've already determined that he can't get around a left taclke for shit.

Oh. Good.

TRR reported from camp that unil yesterday, Hali was lining up at ROLB.

He doesn't have to get around a left tackle even if he lines up on that side because Jackson would be in a true 5 technique meaning the left tackle would have to honor Jackson no matter what.

Playing our players in positions that highlight and utilize their skill-sets and strengths????

We havent seen this type of "craziness" in over a decade!!!!

That's one problem. The other problem is that he'll be asked to do a lot of LB stuff. He's going to look silly in pass coverage and given that he was so lousy stopping the run at the DE position, I'm more than just a little concerned about asking him to do it as a LB.

I'm pretty sure that Hali will have no role in this defense in 2 seasons.

I hope so too. My fear is that the rumor in Arizona was that Pendergast's defense not only confused opposing offenses, it also confused Arizona's players.

I wonder why they don't listen to you.

You're obviously very smart.

well he really has not done much so far except get pushed around by bigger guys-so if we get ANYTHING out of this 1st round pick this year it will be gravy.

is there any chance we can get a 2nd or 3rd out of dorsey? this will NOT WORK AT ALL

He needs to get his shit together.

Like you know what will work or not.

yeah, glenn will sometimes just take the guard straight up and sometimes shoot the gap and sometimes go after the tackle, he'll excel at the shooting the gap, but the other moves will help confuse the defense, like a 5th LB sorta, when's this one coming balls to the wall, the defense is called right/played right, it will confuse the crap out of the Defense.

Dorseys bad knee is what worries me the most-will he even make it through camp?? He was out the other day allready-but that could have been yet another injury.

Do you mean the same knee he started all 16 games on last year as a rookie?

Yep, i get an uneasy feeling about the leg and about his motivation. He's seems to have a little bit of apathy in him. Hopefully that's just appearance and i'm wrong. I just haven't seen that hungry,angry domination yet.

I think a part of that is that he was learning how to play in the NFL, and put in a poor position for his talents last year, and a part of that is that he's a guy who goes about his business in a quiet unassumng manner.

Because Hali is playing back at his normal weight which is 25 pounds lighter than what Gun had him out. He is also standing up now giving him more of an advantage versus if he were in his stance... especially considering he wont come every single play meaning he will get a wide open shot at times..

Man I hope Dorsey works out and becomes a dominate player. I truly don't think Hali will have a spot on this team in the future.

I will be at training camp the next few days and will keep an eye on this for you all.

Keep an on McIntosh, Richardson and Taylor, as well.

I suppose you could also throw Colin Brown in the mix also.

The word is "dominant."

It would be nice if all these high draft picks were fit together.

Yes, it would.

Tyson Jackson is a stud DE the likes of Reggie White. Since that is about how is he was drafted and is getting paid.

Tank Tyler is a solid NT that holds the middle

Glenn Dorsey comes on in his 2nd year to live in opponents backfield.

Tamba Hali regains his quickness at the lighter weight and turns into a quality pass rusher

Derrick Johnson finally pulls his head of his ass and becomes a tackling machine

Put these together with our quality young cover guys and BOOM GOES THE DYNAMITE!! :D

Thanks mom.....

Where have you been dude?

The stuff of football boners. Nice.

According to that description Hali is playing the same role a 4-3 OLB would.

LOLZ

And I thought Kendrell Bell was limited in that role...

The only real world difference up front between the defense described there and the one we ran last year is Dorsey is playing 3-technique instead of Tyler.

The only real difference between that D and a typical 4-3 is the right defensive end stands up instead of putting his hand on the ground.

That's all assuming we are in fact running the D described in that post.

Actually, no. The Predator is primarily a pass rusher with very limited coverage responsibility.

If you have been looking for a post that sums up low football IQ. Your search is over.

I don't think Dorsey or Hali will be on this team in the near future.
Have fun at camp!

From what I've read, both Dorsey and Hali have really stepped up and impressed in the last couple of days.

It is really good to hear that it sounds like Dorsey does have a place in this defense. Hali it seems is just going to be asked to go after the QB and spend very little time in coverage. Very encouraging that he's dropped weight and apparently looks quicker.

First it was said that Hali was playing over the left tackle and rushing the QB. That's fine. If he lines up there he will be fulfilling that pass rushing role. But then someone came out and said that they'd switched Hali and Vrabel and now Vrabel was lining up over LT and Hali was on the other side.

Whoevers playing that other side will be in coverage more often then not.

Coverage is not the strong suit for either of those guys but I shudder at the thought of Tamba covering guys out of the backfield.

If Hali can't beat left tackles you might see them flop in obvious passing situations.

The one thing to consider about Hali, though, and it's something I'll be really interested in watching is... keep in mind that Hali has always been asked to max out his weight. Because he always seemed to be a tweener between an every-down DE like Mario Williams and an edge rusher like Berry.

Maybe if he plays 10 lbs lighter, he can move a little faster. I have no idea.