jeezus harryson christ, because you couldn't be bothered to go anywhere and look at anything at all I thought maybe if you could just scroll up to the top of the damned page that would at least give you some idea.

And from that you extrapolate that I think all anyone should do is look at a highlight clip?

You are some kind of special.

If you DID look at the videos posted at the top of the page, it ought to at least give you pause that your criticisms posted entirely second hand are at least not as concrete as you seem to believe. You can see multiple examples of THAT in those reels.

When you look at full game reps, and you can go to Youtube and find them, as well as more detailed scouting videos, you can see a lot of the questions answered, as well as what Rice does indeed need to work on.

But as you can't be bothered, then no, your opinion is not equally valid, because you have decided to be willfully ignorant.

and that's a better and more direct way of putting it than I've been able to.

No, it's not everything, but if you have an idea of what you're looking at, you can at least get a general idea without a ton of time.

And all any of us are here, is a fan. And some are more educated in specific areas than others.

I learn a bunch every offseason over in the draft forum by listening to other's opinions and going and looking at guys myself and comparing notes.

But I don't think anyone that doesn't bother's opinion is worth as much as anyone who DOES, regardless of whether I agree or not.

For your sake I hope this kid Moss' people. That will make your life complete.

I'll sit back and watch it all unfold when he actually suits up for a game in the NFL.

I promise that if he busts that I wont bump the thread and call you an idiot. But I imagine if he even has Mecole Hardman levels of success you'll bump it and call me an idiot because that's your life's destiny.

Oh, silly child.

If he does Moss people, I'll be happy, because he plays for my favorite team, The Kansas City Chiefs.

Will you?

Judging by your presence here in general, I wonder.

I'll be just fine.

You dont see me bitching about Skyy Moore or calling CEH a bust.

No, but they certainly tell a part of the story. They're far from worthless.

You think the player is going to look different just because you're watching it from an all-22 angle or something?

You think we can't pick up on a sense of speed, acceleration, suddenness, size, playstyle, and a number of other established patterns through YouTube clips? That somehow that's going to look different if viewed at a different angle?

All-22 etc is great for watching schemes, watching routes develop downfield etc. Really breaking down the how/why a receiver is/isn't getting open. But it's not like we can't glean other information from basic broadcast cut ups.

What i will say though is you gotta watch the right shit. 3 Minute highlight videos aint it.

But you can learn a lot about a player by watching the full highlights, the 25+ Minute videos, along with any of the "VS" stuff you can find, i.e "Patrick Mahomes VS" will lead you to full game clips etc. And Senior Bowl drills are great too if that player has them.

CEH is a bust. I think he was too marginal athletically to overcome the injuries. I don't think there's anything controversial about that opinion.

If you say so.

He's a disappointment for sure, mainly because of injuries. But a guy who's career average is 4.4 YPC and nearly 6 TDs a season even with all the time missed is hardly a bust. He just didn't live up to where he was drafted.

Veach seems pretty excited about him for 2023, so I guess you know more than Veach.

LMAO

We'll see what shakes out. Veach isn't going to shit talk a player that's currently on the team. That's just common sense.

You can get a good read on a lot of players just watching their games on YouTube.

Safety is the position where All 22 is necessary because you can't judge their instincts without the larger view.

Sure. I'm in agreement

Save for SR bowl drills. Those don't tell you shit, unless you knwo what the actual drill is trying to emphasize

The DB vs WR Senior Bowl drills tell you quite a bit actually. You get to see both the DB and the WR up close in isolated instances. It's a great way to get a feel for a player's suddenness and change of direction.

You could watch Cornell Powel's senior bowl highlights and see right away that he lacked a suddenness to his game that his peers had in spades.

There are highlights, then there are fulll games or cut-ups, then there's all-22.

They all hold some value, just to varying degrees, in terms of scouting.

Youre the one with a lack of suddenness

The CEH hate throughout the fanbase is way over the top. I'm not a big fan myself, but he clearly has some value, especially as a backup. Obviously they shouldn't have taken him in the 1st round but that doesn't mean he's worthless.

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I agree. It’s just Andy’s offensive system. It’s extremely complicated even for smart players.

I hope they can just mark out a defined role for Rice this year and stick to it. He’s not gonna get it all this year, but shit man get him some work. Need the guy to make a difference this year.

He took Hardman because of the Tyreek situation... Hell, if it weren't for Tyreek's situation, we most likely wouldn't have drafted a receiver in the 2nd, and we didn't really need a WR when we picked CEH and would have most likely been another position.

I think it's completely up to Rice.

If he gets to OTA's, and then Camp, and just balls out the Chiefs will have no choice but to play him.

The Chiefs are a team that plays their best guys. It's up to Rice to force his way onto the field.

Im not a believer in the "Reid doesn't play rookies" and so forth and so forth.

I don't think he is saying you can't have an opinion but that if you do it should be informed and generally speaking watching youtube highlights of a players college performance is a pretty shallow indicator of talent/character. Elsewise anyone could be a pro scout. I think it is important to understand there are people with more indepth knowledge of a player. It is okay to have an opinion but when a SME tells you that your opinion isn't valid for XYZ you should probably re-evaluate. Also, it's okay to agree to disagree.

What if they decline his 5th yr option today?

I suspect they will. Doesn't change his past or what Veach has said about him for 2023.

He can't stay healthy and if Pacheco keeps his 2nd half of 2022 rolling then it doesn't make sense to lock in $5.5M for CEH. Doesn't mean CEH is a bust, just means that today and in the future there is a better, cheaper option

Fair enough but I would argue otherwise. Don't want to clutter up this thread though with CEH talk.

and hopefully you are excited that it shows Moore and Rice are doing great... If not, you are a shitty fan hoping you were proven right.

Especially when Kiper has openly admitted he uses his own opinion to elevate certain guys in the draft. He's a shill not an analyst and anybody that quotes him should be ashamed.

What kills me is the general consensus on social media. It's not that Rice is slow and can't separate, or that he has a lot of drops.

It's that we drafted Rice instead of - get this - another CB. It seems the general consensus is that all of our rookie DB's sucked so bad, there's no time to develop them. They need to be replaced, and just a year after they were drafted.

The average Chiefs fan is just...well... :shrug:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Hey <a href="https://twitter.com/Chiefs?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Chiefs</a>, Rashee Rice is your guy to count on �� <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CutToIt?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#CutToIt</a>✂️ | <a href="https://twitter.com/UnderdogFantasy?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@UnderdogFantasy</a> <a href="https://t.co/JyyK2WMWKW">pic.twitter.com/JyyK2WMWKW</a></p>&mdash; Steve Smith Sr. (@SteveSmithSr89) <a href="https://twitter.com/SteveSmithSr89/status/1653384320344522756?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 2, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

What he's suggesting is that you inform yourself, not that you should watch a few YT clips and call it a day. That means consuming as many sources as you can. That gives you composite data that then you can analyze and see both the good and the bad. It's not just "watch the tape" it's about reading and watching the guys that ACTUALLY "watch the tape" and figuring out which ones are reliable, and which ones aren't.

So excited they declined his 5th-year option?

I found this draft pick interesting. Mahomes likes to throw to the open guy, not just toss it up for contention, but we move up and get the guy that is best known for catching while being harassed. Luckily that talent carries over to being good catching anything thrown at you, but a separation/route runner makes more sense.

Outside of a RB that we converted to WR our WR drafting has been a big solid meh. CB's, lineman, maybe even LB's and TE's have been pretty good, but until I see one of these guys blow up, I'm just not expecting much.

Overall, glad we went and got the WR we wanted, but outside of being a bit homerish I don't how can we go in with anything but low expectations.

What does 2024 have to do with 2023?

He has to prove he can stay healthy, which was a focal point of what Veach said about him for 2023 while mentioning he is in tremendous shape. Just because you have hopes for a guy doesnt mean you preemptively lock him up in the future when your option is to let things unfold without that guarantee incase shit doesnt work out like it hasn't for the past 2 seasons because of injury.

Is that because mahomes wants to or because he doesn’t have WRs who can do that? in many ways I think it’s good mahomes has learned to do this. I also feel like there were many instances last year where he had to bail or do superhuman things in the pocket but just doesn’t trust his WRs to make these kinds of plays. So I’m excited about finally having this option as long as he uses it sparingly.

Without a doubt he will need to get coached up on separation so he’s not just a jump ball WR.

You said "excited".

That's hyperbole, plain and simple.

Reminds me of that pass Pat threw to Tyreek in OT of the Bengals AFCCG. Rice probably catches that.

Yes. I used a word that Veach himself uttered.

Guess quoting a man is exaggerating what was said. My bad.

It is very much possible to be a little excited about your former 1st round pick showing up in "tremendous shape" and ready to work while at the same time acknowledging the business side of the relationship. I know, it's crazy to think about.

Every swinging dick thinks they are a SME. That's part of the problem, it's also a very rare instance where anyone on this board will re-evaluate. They just start calling other people dipshit reeruns and talking louder.

That's called "coach speak".

It should really only be important in late game situations, but you always want to pick the open guy over the jump ball. I think Mahomes tries to play it the "right way" which is hit the open guy and don't force crap if you don't have to, and with Reids schemes there is often someone open.

I do like that the guy is solid, which makes me think he has the dedication to really work on it vs just relying on talent. But that also means we probably won't see anything from him quickly either.

I loved Hill, but damn the dropped passes into INTs, that sideways throw by Mahomes that hits him in the mask that would have been a TD in the SB that could have helped make it a game. He was far from perfect.

I think when you look at how Rice, Toney, and Moore can all complement each other, it's a pretty exciting mix.

If they're facing man coverage, Toney and Moore become REALLY tough matchups, especially when aligned with Kelce on the field, too. Covering Toney and Moore in space/across the middle with all the motion and eye candy KC uses becomes a real challenge in man. And if you use the safeties to compensate, or double Kelce, Rice is now 1x1 on the outside and is a jump ball dynamo.

If they're facing zone, you can use Toney and Rice in combination to put the safety who is not bracketing Kelce in a blender situation.

MVS's deep speed also is a component in all of this. Especially when Kelce isn't on the field.

It's an exciting complement when you start thinking about reacting and countering what the defense is trying to do (kind of like it was back when the Chiefs had Watkins as the third option).

:clap:

Like we both said about Johnston, it's just a great compliment to the other guys.

I wanted one of Johnston/Mingo/Tillman/Rice, probably in that order. Because of that fit/complement.

Although, honestly, hearing his college OC talk this morning about what they asked of Rice each week got me even more jazzed for him. I'd slot him above Tillman and probably even with Mingo if the draft was next weekend instead of last weekend.

Clif notes for those that missed them:

1 He played on the broken toe from October on, even though it took away some of his explosiveness (which tells me: guy is dedicated/determined)
2. They used him inside and outside (which tells me he's versatile enough to fit for an Andy Reid offense)
3. They required all of their receivers to know what the other 2-3 receivers on the field were doing in route concepts, and also be able to complete all 3-4 concepts themselves
4. They had option route packages, and Rice ran option/sight adjustment routes

#2 above is one of the reasons I loved Justin Jefferson so much before he was drafted.

I think Rice is a guy who has been prepared as well as he can be by his college experience for quick transition to Reid's offense.

I was referring to the conversation about a particular poster who spent a large amount of time in the draft forum reviewing players well in advance of the draft vs a poster who watched the youtube highlights after the player was drafted. I would tend to lend more credence to the knowledge of a player to someone who has spent months going over their tape, interviews and history vs someone who watches a 5 minute youtube video.....just my rusty buffalo nickel of an opinion.

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:hmmm:

RAS -- Still reeruned.

I've gone back and watched Hopkins, Brown, Adams, Aiyuk, and JuJu to compare Rice to them.

I think people expecting a bonafide WR1 like the first 3 might be disappointed.

I think he's closer to Aiyuk in terms of upside, but more of a blend of him and JuJu in terms of skill set and size/athleticism.

I definitely think he can be better than JuJu, and that's pretty damn good for a 2nd round WR.

He really reminds me of a slightly less bulky AJ Brown. Would make sense why they like him.

I hope he comes along quickly and can contribute this year....but Andy's offense is too hard to learn for rookies

People kinda forget....Adams wasn't really much for a while in GB. It took him a while to get it going there. Aj was good in Tennessee but not what he was IMO, once he got with Philly.

Yeah - I just keep coming back to Aiyuk.

Top 20% outcome: Aiyuk
Next 20%: I dunno - Nate Burleson?
Next 20%: Hmmmm....Donte Moncreif?
Next 20%: Shit...I'm out of ideas. Lets go with Jonathan Baldwin
Bottom 20%: Who cares?

Yea, RAS means dick in terms of determining a guy's success.

And it just doesn't make sense.

6 hundredths in the 10 yards split - literally the blink of an eye - makes a massive difference. 8 inches in the broad jump.

Well Brown weighs 20 more lbs than Rice does. That's a ton or a WR. And yet it barely seems to have made a dent in those scores.

RAS is dumb and meaningless.

But look at all the pretty colors!!! So pretty. . .

I mean....it'd be great if someone were wide open on every play, but that's obviously not the case. Last year, in particular, our WRs got open at a much lower rate than the top receiving crews.

I think it's ridiculous to claim that Mahomes doesn't like to throw a jump ball. When has he had a WR who could grab one? But apparently you know him better than Veach or Andy.

RAS by itself, sure. But RAS along with his college production? Yeah, he's no slouch.

I really wish RAS didn't quantify. Just tell me how faster it is than the average/mean/median. Don't interpret the data, just give it to me, and I'll draw my own conclusions.

also this is the NFL. don't you come in here with metric bullshit.

RAS is what it is... One tool of comparison and doesn't determine success, but a higher score entails physical traits that may help them be successful.

I don't know. It's a game where an inch can make all of the difference between winning and losing.

I don't think it's the be all end all, but it's another tool.

I see RAS as-what is this kid physically capable of? And the numbers give me the ability to compare at the raw athletic ability level different athletes.

There's a lot more that goes into making a successful football player; like prior coaching, mental make-up, the situation they're being put in, etc.

But for non-QB's, it's pretty useful. More so for some positions then others. Particularly for skill position guys, DE's, LB's, OT's and places like that.

I mean the casual fan ONLY looks at a 40 time when they look at WR's. RAS is certainly more detailed than that.

If he's blowing DeAndre Hopkins out of the water, RAS even in concert with anything else don't mean shit.

It says Rice is 40% more athletic than Hopkins.

I mean...c'mon.

Even strictly as a measure of athleticism, it just doesn't tell you anything. It's a bad composite.

RAS may not mean a lot, but a high score can't be a bad thing.

Probably a stupid question but Is the RAS comparing what each player was at the time of them being drafted? That is how I take it.

OR, it tells us that he's got 5 inches more vertical leap at almost the same size, and has greater capacity for acceleration, judging by his explosion scores and superior splits.

I find it encouraging, because it means that while Hopkins has maximized his potential, Rice has the ability to match or exceed that if he wants it bad enough. He's certainly in a much better situation than Hopkins has EVER been in.

Now, will he? Man, who knows. Reports are that he's got high football intelligence, that body control is indeed special, and he's in the best possible situation but shit happens.

And I see inconsistency in his releases (maybe partly due to the toe) and just some general sloppiness in the details that he could get away with in college that he won't be able to in the pros. Does he WANT to be a star? It's right there for him to take it.



But it's May, and it's the time for hopes and dreams.

But by and large RAS doesn't tell you any of that.

The numbers that go into it do - but the score itself means nothing.

As a clearinghouse for data, it has some use. But as a 'score' it just means nothing. The 'score' element of 'revised athletic score' is where it falls apart. The score means precisely dick because there's just no foundation for meaning. If it meant anything at all, Hopkins wouldn't have even been drafted, let alone drafted high.

It some really bad attempt at creating a WAR for athleticism. It's a lousy algorithm.

And on the subject of 'contested catch' guys-

Man, how many times do we have to watch Chase come down with the ball when we've got a CB right on him? Or Brown in the SB coming down with the ball with TWO Chiefs defenders right there?

I don't know about you, but it's pretty frustrating. Why can't we get a guy like that?

Oh, ok. Now we have one.

We have a HC who runs an offense that consistently puts guys in positions to lead the league in separation statistics.

Those plays are just.....shit....sometimes they're just luck. Give me guys that get open.

I think Andy will get him open, so I'm not too worried about.

Sure, but I think it's a nice bonus.

Yeah, this is largely where I sit.

I don't think we need a 'jump ball' receiver and never have. Mahomes just doesn't have to have one. Give him time and even the smallest of lanes - he'll find someone to get the ball to. Even in the red zone, that guy sees throwing lanes that just aren't there for mere mortals. He's Neo reading the matrix in slow-motion out there.

Now - iiiiiiiiif Travis Kelce starts to slow, that calculus changes pretty dramatically. Because right now Kelce is his break glass in case of emergency guy.

Though to your point - I think we were going to try more of that last year. We looked like we were putting some of the back shoulder and/or fade routes - even those quick hitters into traffic - for JJSS and MVS. But they just didn't work. MVS doesn't have the body control and JJSS doesn't have the burst, IMO.

Rice has both. It seems like something we may be interested in adding - but we shall see.

Who’s better?

Pickens or Rice?

If his head is screwed on straight? Pickens


I said it then - people were just missing the fact that he was arguably the most talented AND most polished WR in the draft because Georgia receivers have a bad rap.

But he's long and fast and has good body control while also being an outstanding route runner.

Pickens was a 1st round talent virtually every season. I think he just has some maturity issues that scared teams off. There's really very little more you can ask from a WR prospect.

Pickens - again, speaking purely to raw talent - would've been the top WR in this class.

I wanted to move up for Christian Watson, but when we didn't, I wanted Pickens. I really think that Andy Reid would have been a great head coach for Pickens, because Andy could make him very successful on the field, plus Andy has a way of helping troubled young men mature off the field as well. (Please people, be respectful and do not comment about how Reid's children turned out)

A great possession WR in the NFL doesn't live on jump balls and fades.

Look at Michael Thomas before he got injured. They don't run away from the DB but use their body to box out and then the QB places the ball there with good ball placement (Brees).

Mahomes could do that with a Dhop or last year's draft Drake London.

Question for Rice is whether he's big enough to do that. I think a floor for him involves the contested catch element not really translating because he's not as big as he plays, and NFL players shut that down. But even then I think the floor involves him adapting, and Reid focusing on, exploiting the explosive 10-20 yards he clearly has. So worst scenario is he's maybe doing the job we expected for Moore. Probably takes him and the coaching staff a year to work out exactly what they've got.

Well, that's possible, but the 41 inch vertical and elite body control are probably going to play.

But I think there's a tendency here to think that's all there is to Rice, and I don't think that's the case. I think he leaned on it a bit in college, because he could.

There are some sloppy releases on the tape (errr video) and some of that may be the toe issue, and some of it may just be inconsistent footwork but there are also examples of really nice, clean snaps. So, to me, cleaning up his feet at the snap is really the main area of work needed. I don't think that's insurmountable.

You'r spot on about Pickens. He was my pick last year. And I thought we had him until that last trade back. Still ticked off about that. BUT, I really think the Chiefs pick was Moore all the way, otherwise they would not have traded back.

What true number 1, or hell true number 2 WR have they drafted? Many teams are bad at drafting certain positions. I'm just going on history and watching Mahomes scramble to get someone open instead of trying to force it as often as possible. I'm hoping Rice is awesome, and I'm even willing to give him time to do it, but I'm not crazy enough to ignore 6 years of drafting meh and run out and buy this guys Jersey either. I'm assuming you already ordered yours?

They don't throw jump balls because they're highly volatile in completion percentage compared to just throwing to the open guy.

No I think we agree. I guess my take is at worst it's possible the body control and vertical are less impactful because good, long, physical corners will be better at taking those away.

The issue of him leaning on those skills was raised in that PFF vid staylor shared (I think it was staylor). Their take was it's possible, but definitely not probable, he just never learns that he can't/shouldn't lean on these. Seems an overly pessimistic take to me, but as I say I think it takes time. Hopefully there's patience from all parties.

I wonder what the RAS was on the other Rice? Are they relation?

I was trying to understand the pick and someone mentioned to me that our offense is not as much spread/West Coast hybrid but more traditional West Coast now.

So KC was looking for a possession WR to line up outside(Juju did occasionally but he was awful at it) and Rice was one of the guys they wanted.

Will it work? No idea but this must have had Reids stamp of approval to ask Veach for a guy like this on his shopping list.