The best defensive player we've had the last 4 years? Sure (albeit, not saying much considering the lack of talent we've had there until about 2 years ago.) Still not even in the ballpark of DT. DT was a generational talent, and there was absolutely no doubt he was a Hall of Famer.

Comparing his impact to that of Chris Jones, who honestly, would be very much on the path to the Hall of Very Good (and very well still might be) without Mahomes and Reid, achieves nothing.

Just leave it at that CJ95 is the best player on our defense, we don't need to compare him to an unquestionable Hall of Famer. People have been doing the same comparing him to Donald. Donald literally has more DPOY awards than Jones has DPOY 1st place votes. We cannot equate them as the same player or the same impact.

We all have a bit of Homer in us, I get it, but by making conflated statements (even indirectly) comparing him to Derrick Thomas, it doesn't contribute any real value to a conversation. It just comes across as a shallow attempt of emotional appeal with no real worth.

Every year, there is a new group of "The sky is falling unless we overpay"

First it was Hill, Then it was Brown, now its Jones. People here tend to want to overpay players in the comfort of knowing what we have rather than believing in what has shown to be one of, if not the best front office in the NFL.

You don't build dynasties by overpaying players. Jones is not the 2nd best defensive player in football and also is not comparable to Aaron Donald, and I cannot mentally justify paying him as such.

Regardless of what happens, Veach and Reid have a plan, and will find a way.

He won't get tagged. That's over 30 mil. He will walk into FA and we will let him at 30 years old. If his price doesn't come down and right now it doesn't look like it will, then he's gone in 24 because Veach is not going to give in and screw the team.

I do think the tag is tough, but possible. We'll still be able to do some stuff to manuever the FA market even if we tag him, but regardless we'll see when it's all done though.

There's just too much trade value there to be left on the table to not make it work.

Prove you $30 million tag number.

Trust me, it's actually 33.6M, we already had a whole transition and non transition tag rules discussion much earlier in the thread. Even dug out exact language

He can't. The franchise tag for a DT this year is under 19 mil. Which is less than what Jones is getting in base salary this year so Jones tag number would be 120% of this year's salary. Which is still nowhere close to 30 mil.

Its 120% of the current CAP number minus performance incentives. Base Salary is NOT the number that applies.

Source: Look somewhere around post 150 when a group of us were talking about it and someone dug it out of the NFL website.

Jones' postseason performance last year was better than any postseason performance of DT.

I finally voted that CJ will get paid by KC Chiefs KCMO. It'll happen today now.

This has to be trolling... right? I'm unsure anymore with some of the takes I see on here.... I mean, Donald was better literally the year before in the playoffs... not to mention Joe Greene, Warren Sapp, Alan Page, and well... countless more players who had phenomenal postseasons and phenomenal careers.

His trade value is now before the deadline this year not next year when's he's older and tagged and that's only if he comes in and plays well.

He has trade value next year. Especially if he plays well. If he doesn't have that value, then that solves our problem because noone would be offering him a contract that he wants, or is close to his 30M AAV

I can't find anyone who has been tagged recently that would have gotten the tag in that manner so based off that info and the details in the thread, I'll admit that it definitely appears that I was wrong.

I think he meant Derrick Thomas.

Yeah, it's one of those curious situations that noone was quite 100% sure of so we all did a little work to find out lmao

He said last year.. I'm goin with troll.

That being said, your reply here legit had me LMAO

I would think he should slot in between Donald and the 3rd guy. I don't think they'll get to 30 mil so in the end, it's probably a play out the year and let him walk kinda thing.

I was reading it as Chris Jones postseason last year was better than any postseason Derrick ever had.

I would agree with that in terms of DT yeah. BUT, he's wanting to be the 2nd highest paid defensive player if he wants 30M AAV, and in no world do I think Chris Jones is the 2nd best defensive player in the NFL.

I'd think based on positional importance and value, yeah he could probably make the argument that he's a top 5 defensive player in the league at the moment.

And like it or not, there's gonna be a few 30 million dollar defensive players here quickly.

Oh I see that now. Damn DT = Derrick Thomas or Defensive Tackle. Damn my brain.

I'd still disagree with that. He had the same amount of sacks in less games in 1991, the problem is we don't have all the data. Tackles weren't logged until 1994 if my memory serves correct. That being said, I'd have to actually go back and watch those games again with an analytical mind to see who works the eye test better in the playoffs, but I feel comfortable saying D.Thomas.

I still think he's outside of the Top 5 even with positional value. Top 10 Definitely though.

And yeah, there will be, but that doesn't mean we need to overpay right now IMO

I don't really know that I can name 5 better defensive players currently.....

I think Bosa and Parsons have an argument. I can't put Watt or Garrett there above him yet.

Unfortunately this might be the best way to keep the team competitive moving forward. I keep being reminded of the Patriots trading Richard Seymour. At the time he was a 3X 1st team all pro, 1 time 2nd team all pro and 5 time pro bowler. In a league that loved 3-4 DL, he was a hell of a commodity.

Bill traded him to Oakland and used the first rd pick to get Nate Solder for 7 years, a key part of that dynasty.

I don't like losing Chris, but Veach and staff have been so good. No denying that last years draft class was maybe the best in Chiefs history.

It definitely was a great one.

The issue I have with that is that at some point....you are gonna need some of these positions that are just hard to find later in the draft.

We need a long term solution at LT. I still contend that if this is the way this was gonna play out, the time to have trade Jones was before this previous draft.

Statistically speaking, no.

Derrick Thomas played in 10 postseason games, but failed to log a single tackle in any of those contests.

Not really hard to grasp though, play against an anemic Marty offense, get the lead, and run the football to the opposite side of where Thomas is lined up.

Hell I don't even think DT played in the second half of his AFCCG because we were so far behind and they were feeding Thurman Thomas every series in that 30-13 loss.

So there's 2 sides of the fence here.

Goose egg on the stat sheet crowd, and the "hidden stats" crowd.

But generally, no. DT was not the same force in the post season that he was in regular season, at least on the stat sheet.

Donald (one injury year does not mean he's out yet, is only 1 year removed from a double digits sack season and has many more of them than CJ95), Bosa, Parsons, Garrett, and Watt are definitely above him IMO.

I'd have to sit down with a list if I really wanted to rank this out. But my guess is he'd probably end up in the 7 to 8 range if I sat down to make an honest rankings.

The edge rushers statistically have the edge sack wise, but I think Jones is more of a force overall in his impact and I think Wallcrawler has made the point with the DT in the playoffs thing. It's a bit easier to plan around a DE than a dominant DT.

Where are you seeing zero tackles for DT in the playoffs? I see 10, including 6.5 sacks.

https://www.pro-football-reference.c...T/ThomDe01.htm

Umm.. Thomas had tackles in the postseason.... You don't see any before 1994 because it wasn't logged as a stat. Also he had 4 in 94, and 5 in 95, after they were being logged.

And yes, you are correct that he was not rushing the passer when our lack of an offense was awful and we were stuck playin Run D for essentially 3 quarters while our offense was incapable of doing anything worthwhile.

Poor wording/abbreviation on my part DT- Derrick Thomas

Had Derrick played with Patrick Mahomes, he'd be in the running for best defensive player of all time.

They can't trade him now so it's kind of pointless to discuss and I don't think you can tag and trade him next year with that cap hit.

So CJ and his agent definitely have some leverage here.

I hate to just let him walk next season with no compensation coming back. I'm not really sure the answer here.

This is where I disagree. I understand that EDGE gets the edge sack wise, but I don't think that Jones makes more of an impact than them.

From 2 thoughts:

1.) We can't act like all of Jones production comes from the inside. Only 59% of his snaps were from the interior. Over 40% of the time, he was lined up at End or over the tackle, which lowers a fair amount of that positional value he gets.

2.) Unlike several of those EDGE defenders (IMO) he still has glaring holes in his Run D game.

But it's all good. We both come from a place of logic, just have a different way of looking at it.

Yea, I see that. My bad partner!

The run defense thing just...doesn't really matter as much to me. It's a passing league, I want him to be disruptive in the pass game and good in the run game. I don't necessarily think he needs to be dominant as a run defender (even though I think it's a bit overblown and he's become better there the past few years).

This also makes him more valuable as he's more versatile than said edge only guys in that he can play inside and out. I think the edge play ticks down alot now that they've invested in legitimate edge guys though.

DT had the disadvantage of playing with anemic offenses but he had a lot of DL talent like Neil Smith and Saleaumua to help him up front.

He was a fantastic regular season player, but postseason he wasn’t great. I have a recollection of Buffalo running straight at him one game and he essentially got pulled out.

Actually I don't think so. I think part of what makes him such a legend is he was hands-down the best player we had. He was so good that the defense was "the show". If he'd had Mahomes on his team the spotlight wouldn't have shined nearly as bright on DT.

With Mahomes and co putting up the offensive numbers they would have he wouldn't have had to worry about defending against the run and would have had so many more rushing opps.

The more I've though about it....I just don't think I'd be in business of paying a defensive player that much on a 3rd contract specifically. Even as good and as much as I love CJ here....today's defense is just so much about the sum of it's parts. You can't have holes, gotta have legitimate NFL starting caliber guys everywhere.

Offenses are too good at finding holes.

I don't know what I'd do...glad it's not me making the decision.

Veach is working on a trade for Jones as we speak.

I think we swap #1's with the bears

we also Recieve 2024 #3 ,#4

2025 #6

If I were gonna pay a DL 30 mil...I think I'd try to figure out a way to trade for Nick Bosa

So you want to pile on giving up a shit ton of picks on top of the salary? No thanks.

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Posting stupid shit on instagram ROFL

never thought Chris Jones would be come just a distraction

what good is a contract if the player bails out in the last year, that's some honey badger type shit

The Raiders traded Khalil Mack during Labor Day weekend in 2018... a week before the regular season began... and still got two first round draft picks for him.

I still say his trade value is now it's because we won't tag him at a 33 mil cap hit. He would run to sign that if we did and nobody is going to pony up good pics for a 30 year old that wants a massive bag of money even if we did.

He's will FA if he's here in 2024.

They weren't super bowl contenders, looking to go back to back

Seems to be a theme with Chiefs defensive stars as their contract demands eclipse their production.

Houston, HoboSpirit, Tyrann, Clark, and now Jones.

Hoes ain’t loyal.

He wants to get paid, in his mind the Chiefs not giving him what he wants makes them the bad guy, not him.

In fairness that is the NFL, teams aren't loyal either.

Chris Jones will have made $87.4 million in his career including this season, all paid by the Chiefs.

I get he wants to be paid again but the Chiefs have been loyal to him

Why can't Veach trade him now?

They can. o.City is just being emotional.

For ****'s sake, "officially" sign him for about $25 million per, then slip him a duffle bag full of cash under the table.

It's just how it is, if you have x amount of years to make the most money you can, that's how it goes. 99.9% of NFL players are not taking less money and if an organization haggles and doesn't wanna pay them then **** that organization, that's the game.

It's no different than a guy being cut etc etc.

We get caught, we will lose valuable draft picks. We will be hurt badly without those draft picks.

I think thats actually a really good comparison.

Seymour was 29.....Best at his position.......Last year of his contract and asking for more than Bill/Pats wanna pay......

Also Seymour wasn't traded until Sept 6th!


People say Veach won't trade him and while I tend to agree he would not be doing his job if he didn't atleast see what other teams would pony up for him in a trade. Hell if I were Veach I'd call the bluff and tell them to go ahead and seek a trade package to a team that will pay the $30M. I honestly think Jones DOES want to retire here and when push comes to shove he will tell his agent to sign the damn papers before being traded to the Bears or some no winning team.

Lets see those balls Veach!

I wasn't serious, but I wonder how common that was/is in the NFL?

The Broncos won 2 Superbowls that way.

I'll bite. Care to explain? I've never heard the conspiracy before

Pat needs to get him a few Statefarm commercials or something to help!

Trading him now leaves us with a massive hole at DT and no real options to fill it in a year we're the betting favorites to win the SB.

You also don't know exactly what picks your getting back at this point. Like the Raiders, you could get ****ed.

Seriously, where have you been? They circumvented the salary cap during their first two Super Bowl years in order to pay Elway and Terrell Davis. They knew if they got caught they would just get a slap on the wrist and get draft picks taken away. It was worth them winning the championship. Al Davis busted them for it. He actually called them out as it was happening. But they didn't get draft picks taken away from them until after the fact.

Those are reasons why they SHOULDN'T trade him. Not that they CAN'T as you stated before.

Here’s a good overview:

https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/comment...os_salary_cap/

I agree our DT room is not great and Veach should have a backup plan because anything can happen including injuries. Wonder if Suh has one more season on him haha

I mean I was 16 years old at that time. While my family had season tickets to the Chiefs and I went to every game and considered (still do) to be a loyal, diehard fan, I didn't exactly give a shit about what other teams were doing back then. Had a few other things grabbing my attention back at that age.

Appreciate it!

Gotcha. If I were 16 back then, I'd probably be right with you. ;)

We could also use Tom Brady's fitness business getting kickbacks from the Patriots.......Big reason he took less money IMO.

Couldn’t win without a cap and couldn’t win one with a cap….at least legally.

That and his wife being fabulously wealthy.

Do you think Chris Jones will be petty in interviews like Tyreek is after we go on to have success without him?

I fully believe Veach has a number that he won't go a penny over. That number allows us to possibly resign key other players. He will finagle the contract around a bit but won't go over. I don't know but my guess is 30 million a year is probably over the max for his age. We will see but I won't rip Jones for trying and a lot of teams would jump to pay a player of his caliber that much.

As for long snapper, I remember Hank Stram had Bobby Bell as his long snapper. Bobby was an important cog on that defense. That's the value Stram put into special teams.

I also wonder if we will extend Creed. It would be very difficult if he chases the money. In my heart, he is the type of player who if he loves it here takes a discount. But that's just my feeling that could be completely wrong.

Man, winning the last Super Bowl makes me so much more calm about this situation.

Damn AML rules make it impossible...

Chiefs have way more leverage than people think. Jones is under contract and it would be way stupid to sit out the year. Chiefs can seek a trade if they come to a true impasse. If we our offering 27-28 mill a year, Chris is a fool not to take it and stay with the Chiefs. He increases his KC legacy which has long lasting effects (see Neil Smith) opposed to leaving, and the HOF becomes increasingly locked if we win another ring. Due to the above, I think Chris is signing and the Chiefs have an idea of when. He probably wants to sit out a bit of this hot nasty camp. I'm guessing he will sign next Tuesday...That is all.