Saying Schildt should be fired doesn't mean Mo shouldn't have been fired as well, that's 2 different arguments.

I wanted them both gone. And yea Schildt was as bad at his job as Mo is.

Shildt literally was given dog shit to work in the BP. Reyes hadn’t allowed an inherited runner to score since like April or May. I wouldn’t have wanted Flaherty or Hudson pitching in that situation.

Shildt is a good manager. The team exceeded its Pythagorean by a decent amount.

Mozeliak is now a slightly above average baseball executive who should be criticized for needing the team to go on a 17 game run in September to make the WC in the first place due to his construction of the bullpen and inaction for the rotation.

Didn’t Reyes allow a grand slam to Vogelbach on his first pitch in the beginning of September?

Matheny would’ve been fired after 2016 and LaRussa after 2007 if that was the case.

They don’t tolerate losing because they care about being just above average with a glimmer of hope to contend so there will be butts in the seats.

You’re correct.

Don’t know where I read the thing about inherited runners.

It was his second pitch. I don’t like the firing of Schildt overall but it is tough to defend Reyes going in that game.

You can't run Flaherty or Hudson out there - they're starting pitchers and the Gallegos fingernail thing popped up on him. You can't ask guys used to starting to get hot that quickly - they're just not used to it.

Cabrera has been just as erratic as Reyes of late.

I'd have gone with Whitley, personally. And tried to get through the 9th while giving Flaherty time to get warm. But in the end, it probably didn't matter. They weren't hitting.

I don't see how anyone can say Shildt is a terrible manager after seeing how the defense turned around literally overnight when he took over and initiated new shifting, etc... The guy took the team to 90+ wins with a bunch of shit that nobody else wanted throwing the ball for him.

Mike Shildt is no worse than a very good manager. Cash is better, Kapler is probably better (though Kapler had his issues in Philly). Cora also seems to be quite good.

Who the **** else? Snitker? The guy Shildt ran circles around in 2019? Baker? A guy who's done less with more than any manager in MLB history? Sweet Jesus please don't say Maddon - that guys an overrated kook. Boone? Who can't manage a $225 million payroll?

There are a few guys who I'd put in the same tier with him. Probably Bob Melvin and maybe Scott Servais. Mike Shildt will have won a MOTY award and rec'd votes in all 4 seasons he led this team. Calling him a terribly manager just screams of ignorance of what goes on outside of this organization.

There aren't a half dozen guys in baseball I'd take over him.

This decision was stupid and petty.

I don’t think there would have been any alternative that would’ve been better than leaving McFarland in and pray they go to extras to let Hudson or Flaherty eat multiple innings.

I have to wonder if this was also done with DeWitt putting Mozeliak on the hot seat.

No - he really isn't.

Here's his track record of late:

All contracts in excess of $5 million over the last 10 years:

2012

Ty Wigginton 2 years, 5 million
Randy Choate 3 years, 7.5 million
Jake Westbrook, 1 year, 9.75 million
Yadier Molina, 5 years 75 million

2013

Jason Motte, 2 years, 12 million
Allen Craig, 5 years 31 million
Adam Wainwright, 5 years 97.5 million
Jhonny Peralta, 4 years, 53 million

2014

Matt Carpenter, 6 years, 52 million
Jordan Walden, 2 years, 6.6 million

2015

Lance Lynn, 3 years, 23.5 million
Jon Jay, 2 years, 11 million
Mike Leake, 5 years, 80 million

2016

Brandon Moss, 1 year, 8.25 million
Trevor Rosenthal, 1 year, 5.6 million
Brett Cecil, 4 years, 30.5 million
Dexter Fowler, 5 years, 82.5 million

2017

Carlos Martinez, 5 years, 51 million
Yadier Molina, 3 years, 60 million
Miles Mikolas, 2 years, 15.5 million
Luke Gregerson, 2 years, 11 million

2018

Macell Ozuna, 1 year, 9 million
Paul DeJong, 6 years, 26 million
Greg Holland, 1 year, 14 million
Andrew Miller, 2 years, 25 million, 12 million option

2019

Marcell Ozuna, 1 year, 12.25 million
Miles Mokolas, 4 years, 68 million
Paul Goldschmidt, 5 years, 130 million
Matt Carpenter, 2 years, 39 million with vesting option
Adam Wainwright, 1 year, 5 million
Kwang-hyun Kim, 2 years, 8 million
Adolis Garcia traded to Tex for cash considerations (Just throwing that in there)

2020

St Louis declined 12.5 million option for Kolten Wong
Andrew Miller vested 12 million dollar option



How many of those worked out? Carpenter's first deal (which was immediately immolated by the worst extension ever). A couple of the later Wainwright deals. Maybe Jon Jay for a year before we had to dump him?

Look at that array of shit. He's, what, $400 million underwater there in terms of the value the team got out of those guys over what they'd have been able to get internally? Or by not trading away guys that were cheaper/more effective?

He's a BAD general manager. He's done a bad job building this team. The only reason anyone has EVER thought he was worth a shit was the work that Luhnow did in re-stocking the 2010ish era Cardinals and now some of the key picks Flores has made.

Mike Shildt made chicken salad out of this roster for 162 games and Mozeliak axed him for it.

Oh no you all need to keep him.

A fanbase that pats itself on the back for giving standing ovations to pieces of shit like Brandon Moss, calls a manager that dragged a flawed ass team into the post-season 'terrible' and is constantly shitting on Edmonds in the booth while praising Brad Thompson deserves a mouth-breathing empty suit like Matheny back in the dugout.

Sure, why not. Matheny and Mozeliak are perfect for each other. And for the BFIB.

****ing bullshit organization man.

Yadier Molina 4-pack ticket bundles and the all new Edmundo Sosa victory blue shirseys go on sale in just a couple of months, fans! Get yours now!!!!

I want Mozeliak held accountable as much as the next guy, but he’s done some good things with regards to acquiring talent.

Mikolas’ first contract had insane value. Neshek was an all star on a minor league deal. Goldschmidt, Arenado, and Ozuna were acquired in below market trades. The corpse of Craig was dumped for Lackey making below a million.

If your argument is Mozeliak is bad at signing expensive FAs that he didn’t first acquire, I won’t disagree. But he’s done well trading wise(for the most part).

He had a bullpen full of starters he could have pulled from.

Reyes has been dog shit terrible since the all star break. Period. His last 2 leverage situation he gave up game losing HR before the playoffs.

Schildt batted Carpenter in the middle of the lineup countless times this season hitting under .200.

I don't want to hear it, he was terrible at managing. He may be a decent coach but that's not his job.

Mikolas first contract had excellent value that he immediately torched with an extension a year too early.

And I'll say the same thing about the Goldschmidt deal I said then - it WASN'T below market. It WAS the market. If anyone was offering more, Arizona takes it. And it wasn't until the last 4 months of this season that Goldschmidt played to his salary, let alone the prospect capital we traded to get him.

And the funny thing about the Arenado deal - when the rumors first started I crunched the numbers and here's what I said at the time (this was before it picked up steam, mind you - just seemed like more Mozeliak bloviating):



My takeaway in there was that the Rockies would need to absorb almost $50 million to get to break even on a salary dump (I suggested they take on that much in bad contracts) and they would never do that so it wouldn't get done. Low and behold that's EXACTLY what they absorbed. They didn't take on bad contracts, they just paid cash. But I pegged the market for the guy. When everyone else was sucking off Mozeliak, it was because too many of these old talking heads still have no concept of surplus value.

The Cardinals didn't get Arenado for below market value either.

And in the end they didn't get Ozuna for below market value because evidently the rest of baseball knew what we, the fans, didn't know at the time - his shoulder was wrecked. Oh by the way, Sandy Alcantara and Zac Gallen, the guys we moved in that deal, might just have as much trade value as Jack Flaherty has right now. Alcantara almost certainly does at least (Gallen probably did but that elbow issue will scare teams off).

Man, if you're reaching for Neshek, you're really scraping bottom. Name a team that doesn't stumble-ass backwards into a reliever every year or two. That's the nature of reliever volatility and exactly why you shouldn't do dumb shit like pay retail at $36 million for Andrew Miller or give Brett Cecil 4 guaranteed years.

Yeah, we can bring in the reincarnation of Whitey and Larussa combined but the main reason for us not achieving a WS championship in 10 years is still the tight pocketbooks of Dewitt and Mo’s inability to evaluate talent. They are still there.

Just saw a clip of the zoom announcement. Dewitt looks like he’s 95 years old.

He didn’t really, though. Flaherty and Hudson just got back after not pitching for months and would have been used in a high leverage situation that they’re not normally used for. It’d be us asinine as Matheny using Wacha in 2014 at SF.

Regarding Reyes, if he was so bad, then why didn’t Mozeliak do something about it and shun him to the IL with a bullshit injury or, hear me out, prepare him as a starter going into the season(like he’s pretty much been prepared to do his entire career) instead of forcing him on Shildt in a role that he’s not designed for?

Re: Carpenter- sure, he deserves criticism for batting him in the middle of the order. However, that liability is still on Mozeliak for not cutting ties with him and forcing Shildt to use him.

The unbelievably sad truth is that for most of the season, until Nootbaar came up, Carpenter was probably our best option off the bench against RHP. Yeah - the bench was THAT bad.

And the bullpen was populated by cast-offs and kids that can't throw strikes. The starting staff was a 40 yr old and a bunch of guys who might give you 3 innings before they get chased until it was just populated by four 40 yr olds, only one of whom could hit 91 on his best days. And a wide variety of slop-tossing lefties at that...

And Shild took that team to 90+ wins. And he's 'terrible' because he picked Reyes over Whitley in a game we lost because we went 0-11 w/ RISP despite getting at least a dozen balls to drive in those situations.

Shildt is nothing resembling a problem.

Hasn’t Goldschmidt historically performed better as the season’s progressed?

You’re probably right that he gave up market value for Goldschmidt. Losing Kelly is going to stink.

Arenado-I don’t know man. They basically gave up nothing of significant value to take on Arenado’s contract. I think he’ll be fine long term.

Alcantara will be something nice, but I value a starting outfielder more than I do a pitcher.

Mozeliak’s best moves since 2008 have been the following:
Holliday trade/signing
Not signing Pujols
Signing Berkman
Trading Craig for Lackey
Signing Neshek
Signing Mikolas(first contract)
Signing Beltran
Trading for Arenado
Trading for Goldschmidt
Rasmus trade

Mozeliak isn’t a great executive, but he’s not terrible. He’s above average and is towing the company line. I don’t think he should be leading the Cardinals given his propensity to spend money poorly recently along with being the person behind the rotation and bullpen being a cluster ****.

Exactly.

Shildt was given a shitty ass selection of starters and relievers to deal with and somehow won 90 games with that.

Starting lineup didn’t click until late in the season.

Mozeliak deserves credit for assembling the good parts of the roster as well as the bad. He deserves all the blame for putting Shildt in a shit situation to begin with.

So the Arenado deal looks like it is 7/164 for The Loo, after the Rockies’ deduction. ZIPS projected him at 4.0 fWAR this year which he hit on the nose. So after Year 1 he returned 32 of the 164 owed.

Can they get the 132 remaining back from him? First, that’s the wrong question to ask since *every* FA deal (which this essentially is) won’t return full value. And you’re paying more upfront for less on the backend. Since Arenado agreed to defer some of his deal (how much and how it’s structured are unknown), that mitigates some of it from a TMV perspective.

Let’s therefore say we need to really just get to 115. Is that do-able? ZiPS preseason had him at 2022-25 as 4.3, 3.6, 2.9, 2.1. I assume the final two years he’s 1.5 and 1.0. That’s total war of 15.4. At 8.5M per War that’s a value of 130.


However ZiPS downgraded his next two seasons. 2022 dropped from 4.3 to 2.8....2023 from 3.6 to 2.3. If that’s how his base case, he’ll prob return about 80M of that 115


TLDR: next year will determine what kind of future value he has.

My point being they shouldn't have HAD to give up anything of value to take on his contract. Arenado with his contract in tow had a negative asset value. As I laid out - aggressively the Rockies were $75 million underwater and conservatively about $25 million. The fact that the Rockies landed right in the middle in what they sent over tells me I was balls on right in how I reviewed that.

Why should the Cardinals have had to give up significant prospect capital to take on an upside down asset? They shouldn't and they didn't. Oh, and Arenado had a full no-trade clause so he tied Colorado's hands as it was.

The Holliday move was damn was in 2009, man. No, he didn't sign Pujols, but not for lack of trying. Same thing with Heyward - he TRIED to screw both of those up but someone was willing to be dumber.

Berkman was a good signing. Beltran was a GREAT signing. Craig for Lackey was nice but it also cost us Joe Kelly who's been an excellent reliever. Rasmus was a terrible, terrible, TERRIBLE trade and nothing more than a salary dump. Edwin Jackson was traded that morning to the first team willing to take on Mark Teahen's deal, then flipped to us in the afternoon. So we traded Rasmus for a guy in Dotel that could've been had for a spring training invite a few months earlier and a lefthanded reliever. No, you don't have to give up a 23 yr old CFer who the season prior had a 3.5 win season and 2 seasons later had a 5 win season for that. You give up AA organizational filler for trades like that, not a former top 5 prospect in all of MLB who had played extremely well at a young age at the big league level.

But for the Furcal deal saving everyone involved in that things ass, the Rasmus trade is a complete debacle. Oh, and the Furcal deal was made necessary by dumping Brendan Ryan (4 win season that year) and signing that piece of shit Ryan Theriot to play SS in his place.

He has 3 moves on that list that he deserves absolutely unqualified praise for. Holliday, Berkman and Beltran. Neshek is just a nothing signing. Everyone has those if you throw enough shit at the wall and everything throws shit at the wall when they're building a bullpen. That doesn't move the needle.

You’re prob right. Didn’t know they gave up anyone. Whoever Gonber is he was worth 1.3 this year (10.5m). His zips is about 1 win each of next 3, so that’s 40M the Cards shouldn’t have given up.

I’d have to know who replaced him in The Loo pen. I assume he wasn’t going to ever start for you. If the guy who took his spot offsets that.....

Oh he'd have started this year, for sure.

His replacement was some combination of Wade LeBlanc, Johan Oviedo and Jake Woodford.

It was....not great.

the Rasmus deal was great because we don’t win the WS without that trade. I’d make that deal every time. Same with the Frank Clark deal. Last two years have sucked really bad but we don’t win the SB without Clark.

So the Mulder trade was a good one as well?

Jesus I hate this line of reasoning. It’s just lazy.

I’m wondering where Shildt will end up. Was he a Matheny guy? Were they close? Is Shildt a very religious guy? I’m just wondering if Shildt ends up in KC.


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Not happy about this even a little. Mo has a lot to explain.

You talk about Mozeliak like he's Brett Veach.

I don't think he's that great either but he isn't a complete idiot.

Shildt will end up taking the Padres to the World Series.

Well, this is surprising and shocking.
You guys can debate who was worse between Mo and Schildt. The bottom line is that Mo is still here and Schildt is not.
The real question now becomes whom do we sign as the next Manager of the Stl. Cardinals? So who does everyone want/think we can or will end up with?

We are owed a better explanation. I don’t need to know the personal disagreements or the details like some TMZ thing. He wasn’t the worst thing in the org. So why is he gone?

Just give us the 10K foot view. Did Schildt want to play more vets? Mo and Dewitt wanted to play the young ones? What was it?

I wonder if not picking up the option on Carpenter and Martinez had something tho do with it.

If Shildt chose to die on that hill, he deserves to be fired into the sun.

He put Carpenter in the cleanup spot batting .170 about 10 days ago.

I think people skewed his results comparing him to Matheny but he did some mindless shit on the regular.

He’s a bigger idiot than Veach. By orders of magnitude.

Mozeliak is ****ing TERRIBLE at his job. One of the 5 worst in the game.

Good.

I hope he **** punts that bowtie wearing fraudulent pile of shit in the process.

I’m openly rooting against the Cardinals until this sack of shit is gone.

**** John Mozeliak and Bill DeWitt. This is not how you a guy that’s given as much to the organization as Shildt has. Oh, and apart from that, it’s stupid and the wrong guy got canned.

This is my Scott Pioli puke point. I’m out until he is.

So when does Mo hold himself accountable? Pathetic he fires Shildt (who deserved to be canned) and yet a bottom 3 GM in baseball is still employed

Wondering about this. Everyone in here that posts hates Mo and wants him fired. Maybe Rams Fan is a little wishy washy on it but the rest of us are pretty strong in our views that he should have been fired years ago.

I don't frequent other Cardinal boards or live in St. Louis. Are we the outlier's in Cardinals nation with wanting Mo gone?

Yes.

But again, Cardinal Nation hates Jim Edmonds on the call and loves Brad Thompson. They jerk off to performative standing ovations for guys who got traded to the team like Brandon Moss.

Cardinal Nation is roundly reeruned and deserves John Mozeliak and his corporate babble bullshit.

Because for some reason they think that setting $400 million on fire is okay because 1/2 the teams in the NL aren't even trying to win and hey, we're better than those guys...

No.

A) Nobody in the organization likes Martinez. And he left the team after he got hurt while a short-termer like Wade LeBlanc stuck around even after his season was over. Shildt is more than happy to see Martinez go.

B) Why would Shildt give a rip that the Cardinals elected not to pay Matt Carpenter $18 million? Yes, he occasionally played him, but he also mostly buried him down the stretch. If he really wanted Carpenter back, he knows full well that the move is still to decline the option. Carpenter knew that the option was going to be declined.

No, Shildt didn't go to war over those 2.

It's almost certainly a Jeff Albert thing, IMO. That or payroll. He either wanted an organizational shift in hitting philosophy after seeing the offense go dark (again) vs. the Dodgers or he wanted to see the Cardinals add a big bat or big arm in the offseason as was told no.

Hell, it might've been both. Time will tell.

But if the rumors are true and Mozeliak fired the guy over the phone and Shildt was blindsided by it, then I think it's pretty clear that Shildt found his voice, announced his displeasure at the direction of the team and was cut off at the knees for not genuflecting at the altar of the mighty Mozeliak.

Can I hate Jim Edmonds being an announcer because I think he’s an actual piece of shit human being?

Or does that mean I’m stupid.

Nobody likes Mo, for obvious reasons. He should be gone as well.

But damn, Schildt sure has grown in popularity since getting fired.

That’s because Shildt is actually good at his job.

I get you are fan and DJ is a fan, but a reeruned chimp knew not to pitch Reyes there with the season literally on the line and other options. Every other pitcher available was better option, I called the homerun as soon as I saw Reyes warming up.

And I am sorry man, the guy who not only kept giving Carpenter playing time but batting him in the middle of the order is not a good manager. That's just a fact. 207 at bats for that turd and

Avg
.169

HR
3

RBI
21

OPS
.581

Schildt is probably a really good coach, he is a terrible manager, there are large differences.

He was given literally dogshit to deal with in the bullpen.

I get the criticism with Reyes-but that’s like complaining about a broken toilet on a sinking ship.

The offense went 0-11 with RISP. The bullpen was Frankenstein’s monster. A historic streak led to them even making the play-in game.

It took a miracle for the team to accomplish what it did. Shildt leaving in McFarland or using a AAAA guy(Flaherty or Hudson wouldn’t have been used and shouldn’t have been seen as viable options in a mid-inning situation) wouldn’t have made a difference.

He had other options that were obviously better, stop making excuses for it because thats all you are doing. And the win streak had jack and shit to do with Schildt they just got hot and went on a burner.

Jim Edmonds is the only person on the broadcast in 20 years who provides legitimate insight.

I won't object to someone disliking him personally, but to overlook his obvious contributions to the booth has you missing out on an opportunity to legitimately learn about the game.

I've never heard anything from Dan or Thompson or Horton or Al that wasn't self-evident. I know a fair amount about the game and at least twice a week Edmonds teaches me something.

He's a genuinely excellent color guy.

See, I don’t really think he did, though. DJ mentioned Whitley, but has he proven himself to be capable of handling that situation?

I would’ve left McFarland in. I didn’t like any alternative other than that.

I don’t doubt that, but his personal shit, along with Dan’s(who I’ll admit has turned his life around after being given multiple opportunities and kept his job for nepotism purposes) rubs me the wrong way.

I can’t stand Al or Brad. I like Horton a lot.

No - he had ONE guy that was maybe a better option. Maybe.

You can't send Flaherty or Hudson out there - you just can't. That's the same shit Matheny did with Wacha and was justifiably barbecued for it. Those are 'clean inning' pitchers who need to know well in advance when they're going in. Those are guys who have started literally their entire careers - you can't just have them hot in a single batter.

Whitley was the one guy who was a better option. Oh, and by the way, Whitley had a 6 ERA in the first half. It was Shildt who got him back on the horse, worked him back into shape through lower leverage spots to rehab his confidence and then ultimately moved him into high leverage roles. But/for the work of Shildt to get Whitley back into form, you'd have even less to complain about.

Shildt was a victim of his own success in the post-season. It's no different than dipshit Philly fans who blamed Reid for not winning a SB with McNabb - the only reason he had that kind of show was the excellent work he did in making McNabb appear better than he was.

No, I'm not going to pretend that a guy who averaged a 91 win/season clip with a roster that was about 40% wasted payroll is a terrible manager because he went to a high-strikeout reliever in the 9th after he made the right call in going to Gallegos in the 8th only to see him get hurt (and he STILL made that into a smart decision by sending Gallegos out there knowing he wouldn't pitch to get LAD to burn Lux off the bench).

Shildt is a damn good manager. I've laid out a myriad of reasons why and in response I get one pitching decision and a whopping 14 games started in the 2nd half of the season from Matt Carpenter. Nevermind the fact that Carpenter starting wasn't a Shildt problem - it was a result of the fact that Carpenter was somehow the best LH alternative Shildt had available. "BUT HE BATTED CARPENTER CLEANUP!!" - 4 times. 16 ABs from the cleanup spot over the entire damn season. Oh, and Carpenter had a .438 OBP in those situations, for what that's worth.

But yeah - terrible manager. Counsel made a more egregious decision w/ the early hook for Woodruff and bizarre reliance on a gassed Ashby to lose their series against a team that was half as good as the Dodgers - guess it's time to fire him. Kapler lost game 5 with a dude who was in the minors with a 7.59 ERA in August on the bump - guess we gotta fire his ass, too. MIKE TAUCHMANN BATTED CLEANUP THAT ONE TIME!! HE HAD A .178 BATTING AVERAGE!! TOMMY LASTELLA GOT 240 PLATE APPEARANCES WITH A .308 OBP - FIRE KAPLER.

Just rank ignorance.

No, he didn't.

And you're absolutely right regarding Whitley - to whatever extent he'd proven anything, Shildt played a key role in coaxing that out of him after an awful start to the year. Again - Kapler did the same thing with Doval in San Fran (who had a very similar season to Whitley early and like Whitley had turned things around into September) and Doval lost the game for him. This idea that Shildt had some magic bullet is just asinine.

The problem with leaving McFarland in is that he's pretty defenseless against righties at this point in his career. He doesn't throw hard enough to get it inside on them so he has to nibble. Then you look at Taylor who even in off years hits lefties extremely hard and you've got a real matchup disadvantage there.

Meanwhile Taylor's bat has been extremely slow most of the season and righties can either throw it past him or knock the bat out of his hands. Reyes and his fastball was actually a really good matchup for an aggressive hitter who struggles against high velocity righties, especially with the movement Reyes gets on his fastball.

You want someone to blame - how 'bout you blame everyone's sweet baboo, Yadier Molina? Reyes stayed on top of his first slider to get a swinging strike. Then he backed up his second slider and it frisbeed for a ball. You could see him open up and slice around the pitch as he delivered it. When Yadi sees that Reyes slider isn't consistent because he's released it two different ways, he has to take note of that.

He didn't. He called for a third slider to a guy with a slider speed bat who'd just been able to get his bat slowed down by seeing two consecutive sliders. Then Yadi boxes the throw down when Belligner steals 2nd. At that point he has no business going back to the slider - he needs to attack Taylor because now he knows Taylor's going to be looking for something to hack at in an RBI spot and with Reyes late movement, even a pitch that runs out of the zone (as most of Reyes do) is going to coax soft contact.

Reyes was a fine matchup call for Taylor. Not exactly what I'd have done, but eminently defensible. Then Yadi failed to execute on the SB attempt and did a poor job with pitch selection against a hitter who you just cannot throw 3 sliders to when you're obviously able to overmatch him.

But hey - fire Shildt. Terrible manager or something.

Harrison Bader has had known coachibility issues his entire MLB career - plays the entire month of September like it's game 7 of the World Series and "Shildt had Jack Shit to do with it..." His 22 yr old RFer who'd struggled with his confidence in run production situations all season becomes a key RBI bat after Shildt shows confidence in him but nah - nothing. Edmundo Sosa is given the keys to SS and is a critical energy guy, defensive stalwart and out of nowhere offensive contributor to lengthen the order - **** that Shildt guy, he wasn't the one who put him in the starting lineup or anything.

The streak is fueled by Tyler O'Neill who went supernova when moved into the 3 hole which gave Goldschmidt more pitches to hit and Arenado more RBI opportunities nd Dylan Carlson got moved into the 5 and blossomed - "Shildt had nothing to do with it"

Guy's dealing with a starting staff that you have to be SUPER cautious with because it's a bunch of old dudes with fringe stuff or a rookie with only two pitches so you have to be really aware on your hook, especially as they get through the order a 3rd time - "Shildt had nothing to do with it". And because of that hook, you have to get through 3-4 relievers most nights without finding one that will lose it for you - "Shildt. Jack. Shit."

****ing ignorant. Just weapons grade stupidity.

https://www.stltoday.com/sports/colu...cab719ff8.html

This is why Shildt got fired and it had nothing to do with his ability as a manager.

He didn't kiss the ring so he got canned.

This is the money quote. This is thing I said the organization REALLY lost when it lost Larussa:

The problem is now we'll never have it as long as Mozeliak is here because he now how plenary authority to fire anyone that dares seek it out. LaRussa challenged his front office and the front office had to respond because LaRussa was the louder voice. Now he's never going to run that risk again. He saw the potential and snuffed it out.

There's some fermi paradox analogues or even fascism ones, but they're both belaboring the point. Bottom line is that this is going to be an organization full of mincy little yes men until Mozeliak is gone. And Mozeliak isn't going to be gone until DeWitt is.

****ing John Mozeliak.

Dj is on fire itt

John Mozeliak has entered King Carl territory.

He's entered Scott Pioli territory.

Walt was King Carl. He rebuilt the organization and was responsible for a significant turnaround. Then he got a bit stale and it was time to move on.

Then came in the new hotness who for a few years coasted on the performance of his underlings and used it to seize control of an organization. And as it turns out, he's a power hungry and incompetent clown who has no ability to self-criticize but has managed to snow the owner into believing he's something more than a snake-oil salesman.

Carl deserves credit for what he accomplished even if he eventually overstayed his welcome. Mozeliak, like Pioli, has never done anything but take credit for the work of others.

**** that mother****er. I hope he goes drinking in the Dominican. Chode.

I dunno man. Mo makes the POs more often than Walt did and hasn’t had a losing season. You could argue this team hasn’t really contended for a WS since 2015 and everything else after that is comparable to King Carl’s latter years.

Walt won a WS his second to last season before getting booted to keep Luhnow.

Mo doesn’t care about winning a WS at this point in his tenure, similar to King Carl near the end just wanting butts in the seats without doing a rebuild. Walt said **** the future if it means contending today.

The major distinction between Pioli and Mozeliak is that Mozeliak took over a recent WS champion with a loaded farm system. Pioli took over a team that Herm Edwards had steered off the cliff.

Can you imagine how bad this team would be had Mozeliak stepped into the same sort of situation Pioli did? No Pujols, Carpenter, Molina or Wainwright? The guy's first managerial hire was Mike !@#$ing Matheny - how's that not stride for stride with Todd Haley for raw stupidity?

Mozeliak is nothing but a product of the labors of smarter men.

The wrong guy left. Should’ve fired Mo and Albert. This is not a good thing for St. Louis fans. This was a clear power struggle and bow tie wins as usual. Unfortunately it’s the only thing he’s good at.

He could have used Lester, Happ, or anyone but Reyes FFS. "You just can't" isn't a valid excuse. You know who you just cant send into that situation? Alex ****ing Ryes. The excuses about the bullpen in that situation are just that, excuses. They had 2 days off before the game and would have had 2 after the game. There weren't only 2 options. Who closed the game for LA last night? Was it a bullpen guy? No it was Scherzer.

Carpenter had 207 at bats this season playing worse than last season when he had fewer so stop with your downplaying it. And Schildt was batting him in the middle of the goddamn lineup. That's firing territory alone just for being a goddman dumbass.

And it sounds like you should be impressed with Albert since the offense is the only thing that woke up in September.

Schildt is the Alex Smith of managers. And yea Mo should be gone too.

If we're being quite honest, putting Happ, Lester, or Reyes in that situation is pretty much playing a game of Russian roulette. Happ and Lester should have been nowhere near a playoff team's roster in 2021. Scherzer is actually a good pitcher. Happ and Lester are not.

And the situation you painted with Scherzer is completely different. Scherzer came in a closing situation at the start of an inning.

The Cardinals, if things had worked out well after McFarland, would have gone to extras, at which point I'd have wanted Hudson and Flaherty.

There's literally no one in the rotation that I'd want to handle that situation except for Wainwright(who started) and MAYBE Mikolas.

The excuses aren't excuses. Mozeliak literally gave Shildt dog shit to work with in the bullpen aside from 3, maybe 4, relievers who were available that night (which he used before the 9th).

Lester and Happ - both lefties, both starters. You want to go from a productive lefty reliever to a lefty starter on short warmup to face a guy that smokes lefties. And I'm supposed to pretend you're paying attention to ANYTHING I've said thus far?

I haven't given you excuses, champ. I've given you reasons. Answers. I've bought you the books and you're eating the pages. You're actually making WORSE arguments as you go somehow. I point out that you don't throw starters out there like they're relievers and that we've seen a dozen times how that's gone - INCLUDING one of the more egregious examples of it in living memory with Michael Wacha and your answer is to cite 2 more starting pitchers. I've told you why leaving a lefty in there to face Taylor is a bad decision, especially one with fringe stuff who can't work inside well anymore and you give me two MORE lefties with fringe stuff - STARTERS at that.

And you just blow right on by the fact that it was Molina who boxed an easy throw/catch on a stolen base attempt that would've gotten them out of the inning and called 3 sliders in 4 pitchers to a guy with a slider speed bat when he knew (or should have known) that Reyes mechanics were off.

As for your Carpenter haranguing: Again - 14 starts in the second half of the season. I'm not 'downplaying it' - I'm telling you he started 14 goddamn games in the 2nd half of the season and you're the one ignoring that Shildt CLEARLY sidelined Matt Carpenter.

I point out several different examples of 'great' managers who have decisions within the last couple of weeks as bad/worse than Shildt going to Reyes and...{crickets}. I show you any number of hurdles Shildt had to clear, times he's had to coax genuinely excellent performances out of an insanely flawed roster to get to 91 wins. I explain his role in making those wins happen.

Point after point, answer after answer, and I essentially get 'NUH UH, HE SUCKS!' and I'm supposed to act like you know your ass from a hole in the ground?

You can betray your own ignorance all you want. It's clear you know precisely **** all about what you're seeing. You honest to god just suggested going from a lefthanded reliever to two lefthanded starters ahead of Alex Reyes and expect to be taken seriously.

Jesus Christ, you can't even spell his name right. But please, continue to lecture me on how poor a job he's done. You're clearly right on top of it.

Like I said - weapons grade stupidity.

There was literally no good option unless you trusted Mikolas coming out of the bullpen in that situation.

That's an indictment on Mo.

I would have had no problem with Mikolas or Kim starting the 9th, but to put them in a situation like that, which they aren't used to in the middle of an inning, is asking for disaster.

Hudson or Flaherty would've resulted in Wacha 2.0

Retrospect: Shildt should've just done an opener strategy with Lester, then have Wainwright or Mikolas come in.

Scherzer knew when the game started that he'd likely be used to close it out. He was warming as the inning started to come into the 9th of that game. He's also been healthy all season as opposed to Hudson and Flaherty. But yeah, completely sound veteran arms are clearly the same as 2 young guys, one of whom has come back early from major surgery, the other has been fighting nagging arm issues all season. Clearly no reason to believe they'd take a little more time to get warm.

I've said I would've had no problem giving the ball to Whitley to try to get out of that inning and then turn it over clean to Flaherty or Hudson. I've said that's probably what I would've done, even.

But no, you don't go to a starting pitcher in a jam situation. Especially not younger ones coming off recent injury. Again, the Cardinals have had this exact situation with Michael Wacha and even money says Marcellus bitched up a storm when that decision was made.

This is a ridiculous discussion.

I don't even have an issue with a starter coming out of the bullpen in the POs when healthy. Bumgarner probably had the most insane postseason of all time doing that in 2014.

I have an issue with putting in 2 starters, who just came back from injury, in a 9th inning win or go home situation with a tied score (aka Wacha).

I have an issue with putting in 2 terrible pitching options who somehow out performed their metrics in high leverage situations.

I literally don't know what else could have been to avoid that outcome other than going to an opener strategy and relying on a Lester/Mikolas/Wainwright combination, which would have not even guaranteed a victory and absolutely destroyed the rotation for the next series.

If you go with Mikolas, you're facing Lux and probably McKinney. I like facing Pujols and Souza quite a bit more there. Additionally, Gallegos finger thing popped up fairly quickly and so Mikolas wouldn't have had a ton of time to get warm. Why go to a starter yet when you have an effective lefty reliever already warm who can burn some of the Dodgers (already short) bench? And there's really no good argument starting Kim in the 9th over McFarland, who's significantly out-pitched Kim of late.

I'm not just throwing shit at the wall here - I've gone through this before I said something as stupid as "Why not Happ or Lester?!?!". He had 2 choices, - Reyes and Whitley. There aren't very good arguments in favor of literally anyone else we had available.

I am throwing shit out there because I literally have no idea what else could have been done to avoid that situation(start of the the 9th) other than doing something like that, praying you get to extras. Or go to an opener strategy.

I still wouldn't want Mikolas or Kim coming in the middle of an inning.

Right - I'm not criticizing you. You've been even-handed here.

I agree that if you go with Mikolas or Kim, it's to start the inning. I'm simply pointing out that I've even considered that possibility and I don't see either of those as better options than going with a lefty who's forced himself into the circle of trust and who really created some issues with the Dodger bench. Additionally, he was the best suited guy to get out of the inning clean because if he gets the two pinch hitters out, he's facing a guy in Bellinger who was, I shit you not, worse than Matt Carpenter this year. Folks, Cody Bellinger had a .383 OPS against lefties this year. Not OBP, Not SLG - his O.P.S. against lefties was .383.

Of COURSE you look to a lefty to start that inning. You force Roberts to burn a couple bench options and take out a couple starters. And you theoretically get the easiest AB of the game you'll get in a lefty vs. Bellinger matchup. McFarland walked him. Inning should've been over right then and again, Mike can't throw 'em for him. It was an awful walk at the worst possible time.

But the setup was right there. Shildt pulled the right lever starting that inning with McFarland.

Man - watch that AB again.

Taylor's sitting dead red slider. If Reyes executes it it's a grounder to SS and if Molina calls a fastball at best Taylor fights it off but he probably rolls it over to 2b.

I just don't understand why Molina went with another slider there. Especially on a 2-1 count. It wasn't even a putaway pitch. You have essentially a free strike if you get a fastball anywhere near the zone and very probably a grounder to get out of the inning.

If you get that strike maybe you chance another slider there, but even if he executes the 2-1 slider to get to 2-2, now Taylor's protecting fastball with 2 strikes so you either go with a 4th slider in 5 pitchers (shudder), or you throw him a fastball that he's already gearing up for.

It was just really strange pitch selection. I don't get it at all.

I want to say the last time Lester came out of the pen he promptly bounced a pitch in the dirt that ricocheted off Ross' helmet and scored 2 runs that almost blew game 7 of the WS. Definitely should have brought him in. Definitely.

Lester and Happ weren't even on the WC roster

So out of the names being thrown around who do you all prefer?

Oliver Marmol
Stubby Clapp
Jose Oquendo
Skip Schumaker
Matt Holliday
Mark McGuire
Joe McEwing
Eduardo Perez
Mark Derosa
Joe Esparza
Bruce Bochy
Brad Ausmus
Jeff Bannister

Got someone else in mind?

None of those names bring even a hint of an erection to my penis.

If I had to guess, it’ll end up being Skip if Mo thinks he’s enough of a yes man bitch.

I’d probable lay 3-1 odds that it’ll be Oliver Marmol.

And I’m just gonna say this - if anyone thinks that Marmol is a smarter, more capable baseball guy than Mike Shildt, they’re going to be REALLY disappointed.

Frankly, anyone who disliked Shildt, who did so much to return this franchise to the ‘Cardinal Way’ style of play despite Mom’s best efforts, you’re going to dislike whoever replaces him. If you’re extremely lucky that manager will win more games playing a far less entertaining brand of baseball.

But more likely he’s going to win fewer games, drive you just as crazy over a 162 game season and take this team further away from the product you wanted to see.

Wanna argue this DJ or Rams fan?

Matt Holiday or Skip Scumarker are the only “outside” people who could fit in here. Meaning first timers so Mo can lord over them.

Marmol or any current asst. coach would be in the same boat.

No one is going to inspire. But, that’s not what they are going for, is it?

Saw on Twitter discussion of Holliday may be able to get us Trevor Story to come and keep Arenando happy. Assuming rampant internet speculation.

"BT" is complete garbage on TV on radio. Like any random person would be better than him. It's embarrassing he's the best they can cone up with.

Shildt was an absolute terrible manager and I will not listen to this tripe stating otherwise. But you can't fire him AND keep that sack of shit MO as an organization

A) ‘regardless of past history’ disqualifies pretty much anything as a serious remark

B) I’ve already argued this. A half dozen times. You’re just not paying attention.

I have been critical of Shildt's bullpen use in big games for most of his tenure. Martinez was a full Section 8 in the NLDS against Atlanta in 2019, but he kept running him out there and it almost cost them the series.

With that said, regardless of how you feel about the performance of the manager, it is remarkably unprofessional to fire him over the phone. That reeks of cowardice, and it raises serious questions as to why anyone in the organization that isn't a complete lackey would have any respect for current management and ownership.

Their handling of this dismissal has been disgraceful.