What a terrible game.

Tyler O'Neill thanks for coming. You were useless.

Yadi.....wish you would retire. What a shit game from you.

Nolan.....jesus. How about one hit?

Edman and Wainwright came to play. Feel bad for him.

And that has what to do with Wainwright? Eat a bag of dicks like you do every evening. a 90 win team just took you to the edge, cant wait for you to lose your next series.

**** YOU MATT ADAMS

Also you $300MM pitcher is done so **** off, you guys wont do shit.

Waaaah little bitch can't handle losing to the better team! **** YOU SHIT LOUIS

Tough way to lose. Terrible situational ABs and Shildt got too cute in taking out Gallegos early. Reyes in that spot was as bad as Wacha vs Ishikawa. That was just an awful, awful idea.

LA Chief fan never shows his face when they lose. Which during the recent history, is a lot to us in the playoffs. But gets a win, he’s in here talking trash before the guy even finishes running the bases. He’s just a lame ass front running bitch.

Let me guess….you know a guy?

**** YOU TOM NIEDENFUER

Yes I just started rooting for Dodgers in last ten minutes, genious

Win the WS this year and it’s actually legit Dodger fans. 60 game regular season lol.

The shittiest thing about losing tonight is I have no faith that this team will do anything next year. Other than parade Yadi around when he should be retired already.

Oh well. Frankly, these guys even making the playoffs was a miracle. Losing to the Left Coast Yankmees isn't really much of a shock.

I guess I'll be pulling for the wife's team (Braves) now. Not that it will do much good.

**** OZZIE SMITH

There are avenues to competitiveness. It's just a matter of the FO showing the proper aggression to fix the MI and back end of the staff.

We have a good core.

Goldy
O’Neill
Arenado
Carlson

Gorman is on the way soon.

Flaherty
Liberatore

Just need one more pitcher to step up and we can win a series.

Reyes is ass. At least we can move on now.

I HATE The Loo.

But I also love it.

Shit man, great season. First time I ever rooted for you. Waino is a beast

Props to Cards.

Get a #3 starter.
SS or 2B.
And some relievers.

The fan base should temper expectations on Gorman and Liberatore. Martinez, Taveras, and Reyes were all higher rated prospects and look what happened with them.

Martinez reached his highest ceiling for a brief period of time.

Taveras died.

Reyes is still TBD(don’t think he’ll ever reach his true potential, but we’ll see).

You also left out guys like O’Neil, Flaherty, and Carlson, who arguably had the best offensive season for a Cardinal rookie short of Pujols in the past 30 years.

Wellll Martinez definitely had high level talent. He couldn’t remain focused. Tavernas homers to win a playoff game and then drunk drives and kills himself and girlfriend. Reyes, I got nothing. :rolleyes:

Took 4 years for O'Neil to look like a major league player and Flaherty really only has 2 good years under his belt which happened as many years ago.

Carlson's rookie year production was inferior to even Randall Grichuk and on par with Piscotty.

There's nothing questionable about the Dodgers' title.

How can you ding them for the 60 games when they won seven straight division titles from 2013-2019 and followed that up with 106 wins?

In the playoffs, they beat the Rays (96 wins in 2019, 100 wins this year) in the World Series and the Braves (four straight NL East titles from 2018-21) in the NLCS.

The Rays beat the Astros (100 wins each year from 2017-19) in the ALCS.

The teams that were supposed to be there were playing there in the end.

Carlson had a higher OBP, WAR, and way more walks.

Grichuk had higher SLG and OPS.

Grichuk's wRC was 25 points higher.

The real prospect to get excited about is Jordan Walker.

Modern day George Foster with the athleticism to play 3B and steal bases. He was recording 117 mph exit velocities just days into his pro career at low Single-A Palm Beach.

Grichuk was also 23/24 in 2015.

Carlson doesn’t turn 23 for another few weeks.

Flaherty’s proven enough to show he’s lived up to the hype.

O’Neil’s issue is that the FO/management didn’t give him full time playing duties until recently. I have little faith that they can evaluate hitters correctly or to get good value in return.

The only hitter I’m fine with them trading was Arozarena because of Liberatore. They sold low on Pham. Voit would’ve been serviceable off the bench. Didn’t get a good return on Grichuk. Intentionally sold Piscotty at low value to get him back home.

He's been mediocre to bad more years than he's been good.

He's been in the league for 5 years and he has a 8.4 fWAR. He gives up too many HRs. He was hyped up like one of the best pitchers in the game, and for about 1.5 seasons it looked like he was, but the best pitchers in the game put up his career fWAR in a single season.

If he never pitched another day in his life and he ended with 1.68 fWAR a season over his career after being a top 30 or w/e he was prospect when he was called up and you are saying he lived up to the hype then you are straight up lying to yourself.

LOL

***Official 2021 STL Cardinals Thread***
 

I was coming in to say congrats on the season and ask what Cards fans here thought about pursuing Corey Seager to handle SS and add some lefty punch to the lineup, and then I saw this.

I mean, if you think Flaherty is disappointing,
I’m sure there are 29 other teams who would gladly take him.

But this is such a weird critique of a 25-year-old starter. Saying he’s been up for five years is also disingenuous.

He debuted as a 21-year old late in the year and made six starts in 2017. They were not great. But again. Extremely young guy finding his ground.

In 2018, he pitched like a budding ace and took a big step forward. Twenty percent above league average, good peripherals. 3 win season.

In 2019, he legit was an ace. 5-win season. 50 percent above league average. Phenomenal peripherals.

He wasn’t good in 2020, but such a strange year it’s hard to critique anyone.

He was good again this year and just got hurt.

I don’t get it.

You don't get it because you think he was good this year.

You say he was bad last year, but good this year? The only thing he did better this year was be fortunate to not have a worse ERA. He had a 3.22 ERA when he was expected to have a 4.86. Every single advanced metric is as bad or worse than it was last year. He doubled up his IP from last season which amounted to 0.3 fWAR over what you say was a bad year. Ya... he was amazing this year.

He was really good for 1.5 seasons 2 years ago. You know who else had a run like that? Jake Arrieta.

Would I take Flaherty right now? Absolutely. But only because like you mentioned he's 25 years old and he has shown at his peak what he can be. But he hasn't been that in 2 years and injuries aside, if he comes out looking like a 2 fWAR pitcher again next year, I would probably think about seeing what teams would be willing to trade for him, if he was on my team.

Ok, back to ripping Mozeliak/FO.

The poorly constructed bullpen is why last night happened. Relying on a patchwork bullpen, where literally the only passable additions were Garcia and McFarland(who I think is a pumpkin), is a travesty.

I like Reyes, but second half he was horrendous and has no control. Cabrera and Gallegos are fine.

Everyone else can go aside from Garcia.

Having Kolten Wong might have helped last night, but the FO is going to continue selling the notion of COVID/expenses.

The Cardinals have a shit ton of money coming off the books. If they do not invest in the IF, rotation, and bullpen and instead seek having internal options fill those holes-like putting Liberatore in the rotation when he may not be ready or settle with putting him in the bullpen or having the corpses of Lester and Happ return-something is terribly wrong.

I have no confidence they’ll address their needs at all and view the WC as a way to sell to the fan base that this team is good and competitive.

****.

His replacement is way down list of what our problems were/are
I agree. It's north of $40 million coming off the books. Need a good bat at SS and a top quality pitcher this off season with that money.

I have no complaints with Edman, but if Wong was kept he’d be playing SS while DeJong was sucking ass.

I like Sosa, but he shouldn’t be starting.

Nice run Cards, but sickening the Dodgers even had to play in a wildcard game. They were one game away from having the best record in baseball. Just ridiculous. Glad they made it.

Flaherty clearly wasn't right when he returned from his injury. He made it through a few starts and then basically got shut down as he struggled.

He was excellent in April and May. His peripherals for that time period don't show any major deviations from his 2019 and 2018 seasons, especially for a sample of that size.

His performance - even looking at FIP-, which is a very advanced metric and a great way to compare guys year-over-year, he was a top 30 SP in baseball and likely would have turned in a 3 win season. Gotta apply some context.

Acting like a top 50 prospect becoming a top 30 SP in MLB by the age of 25 is anything less than a success is just goofy.

Wtf are you even talking about?

His FIP- was 102 (below average), 104 in his starts. If you look at all pitchers who threw 70 IP he's tied for 110, not top 30. This year was his 2nd worst year in FIP- and 1 of his only 2 years below average. It was 80 in 2019.

They're gonna cite Arenado actually being on the payroll in 2022 (as opposed to the Rockies footing the bill) + raises to Wainwright and arb eligible players as justification to make only nominal 'improvements'.

Those nominal moves will be for guys like Andrew Miller who aren't actually improvements over organizational chaff anyway.

Who they need is Corey Seager. A left-handed bat with a plus approach who is a solid shortstop and has plenty of post-season experience. He's not quite as good a fit as Harper was 3 years ago, but he's close.

If they dip into the SS market at all it will be for Story because he's older (thus less term) and had a bad platform season, so his AAV isn't likely to be as high as the Correa/Seager/Semien trio.

Yankees are going to go all in on Seager IMO.

By my math they're at about $130 million in cash payroll before arb figures for Gallegos, Hudson, O'Neill, Bader, Flaherty, Hicks and Reyes.

I suspect Gallegos, Hudson, Hicks and O'Neill will average about $2 million/per. I could see O'Neill getting $3 million given his season. Flaherty is probably looking at about $8 million? Bader probably near $6 million? So you're looking at $25-30 million there. That gets you to a 22 man roster if you include the Pre-arb guys. Those 10ish pre-arb guys probably run you another $7 million or so.

The payroll is already at $160-$170 million at that point (after you fill the remaining roster spots, even with league minimum guys).

Their payroll last season was about $170 million fellas.

They aren't going to do much this off-season.

EDIT: I think I double-counted Wainwright as I went down the spreadsheet. So if you target the low side of the arb estimates and remove my double counting, I could see up to about $25 million in 'dry powder'.

I feel like that's going towards a 4th starter and a relief pitcher. I think Story's about the best you can hope for and I'm honestly not sure he's someone you should be targeting at $20+ million/season.

We lost not because of the bullpen. We lost because we were 0 for 11 in RISP. That's it.

Yeah and I don’t see the Dodgers keeping him. Sucks as a Dodgers fan but I expect it to happen.

Something tells me the Dodgers will be A-OK. They are the only franchise around willing to piss on the luxury tax thresholds.

Oh they’ll be fine. They’ll just move Turner back to SS.

And it wasn’t a result of good pitching.

Scherzer, Kelly and Treinen ALL gave Cardinal hitters good pitches to hit with RISP.

The Arenado at bat was particularly bad. He missed 2 hung sliders and took a third.

They had their chances and just didn’t get the job done.

WTF I am talking about is how he was performing before he was injured.

Use Fangraphs.

Filter through end of May.

He was not right when he came back and the sample size was small enough to skew his overall numbers.

Dodgers weren’t doing shit with them either.

:LOL:

When you start trying to cherry pick numbers and weed out the bad you lose your argument.

That would be like me saying Ian Happ is one of the best hitters in the game... just filter from after August.

When T.J. McFarland departed after notching two outs and a walk in the bottom of the ninth, the visiting bullpen at Dodger Stadium swung open. Out came Alex Reyes, the team’s sturdy closer who had carded a perfect save opportunity record in the first half of the season en route to his first career All-Star selection. The problem? Reyes had faltered miserably in the second half and lost his job in the process. The last two times he had pitched the ninth in a clutch situation, it had resulted in walk-off home runs for the opposing team.

Wednesday night was no different.

From the Athletic


When T.J. McFarland departed after notching two outs and a walk in the bottom of the ninth, the visiting bullpen at Dodger Stadium swung open. Out came Alex Reyes, the team’s sturdy closer who had carded a perfect save opportunity record in the first half of the season en route to his first career All-Star selection. The problem? Reyes had faltered miserably in the second half and lost his job in the process. The last two times he had pitched the ninth in a clutch situation, it had resulted in walk-off home runs for the opposing team.

Wednesday night was no different.

Why make that move? What did Schilt say?

If I was arbitrarily picking a sample, sure.

But I’m not.

The clear line of demarcation is Flaherty getting placed on the injured list with an injury many expected to cause him to miss the season. That happened after his May 31st start.

He came back in August and clearly wasn’t right and basically got shut down.

You are doing nothing different. You are just using the excuse of an injury, as if having an injury and not playing at all or not recovering from it still makes a guy a top 30 pitcher if you just pretend the injury never happened.

You are projecting a fraction of a sample into a whole, as if you can do that and say it's the only thing that matters. Like guys that dont go through an injury and start off hot dont naturally fade off as the season progresses... Yu Darvish.

It's quite different. You are doing what a lot of people who just want to use stats make the mistake of doing: Ignoring context and looking at the stats in a vacuum.

Before he injured his oblique, Flaherty was pitching like the starter he was in 2018 and 2019 - back on track and putting the weird 2020 season behind him.

Now, if a strained oblique was an injury with a long history of ending or evenly altering careers, I'd throw that out as a concern for the future. But it isn't.

Looking at the season statistically as a whole and calling it a bad year or a sign that he's an underachieving prospect because he didn't pitch well after returning from injury and subsequently being shut down is intellectually dishonest.

But I'll stop there. I didn't mean to invade the Cardinals thread and argue in circles with a Cubs fan, and yet... here I am.

You're right. I'm sure during his arbitration case they will only look at what he was doing through May. It was a banner year for Mr. Flaherty.

Duncan isn’t even a Cardinals fan you ****in nerd lmao

Wtf does him not being a Cardinal fan have to do with the conversation, you idiot? No where did I claim him to be a fan of the Cardinals. I've known the whole time he's a Royals fan. Just stfu with acting like you are smart.

Shildt fired

That was not expected. I literally read today that an extension was probable. This is a shock

Shildt is out apparently.

Kinda shocking, but I guess Mo has to deflect blame on to someone.

Woah this is confirmed? I thought Mo would be happy with his coach doing his bidding?

What happened in the locker room to cause this?:hmmm:

Time to bring back Mike Mathney!!!!!

Bringing in Reyes in that spot was a fireable offense regardless of past history.

CBS sports and MLB@bat both sent me a update message, I'd guess so.

A guy in my office building just said the same thing. Should have left his ass in LA.

Yep, the data said he had a high probability of giving up a home run. You had other choices.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Cardinals president John Mozeliak said he fired manager Mike Shildt earlier today due to a “philosophical difference” in the direction of the team. “We decided internally it would be best to separate now,” he said, even though Shildt had one year left on his contract.</p>&mdash; Jeff Passan (@JeffPassan) <a href="https://twitter.com/JeffPassan/status/1448722473135005698?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 14, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Holy shit, I mean I get it but I am shocked. Yea bringing Reyes in there was THAT bad.

.
@Ben_Fred
asked Mo if tension between Shildt and Jeff Albert was the cause of the split and if Albert would return. Mo says Albert is under contract and he expects him to be back and that tension between the two was not the “sole reason” for the dismissal.

Tension between Shildt and Albert? First I have heard of that news.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">We had Kodi Whitley (who was scoreless since coming back from Memphis) , Jack Flaherty and Cabrera in the bullpen and Shildt brought in Reyes. I still can&#39;t get over this. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/STLFLY?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#STLFLY</a></p>&mdash; Rinedog (@Rinedog1) <a href="https://twitter.com/Rinedog1/status/1445973476104409094?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 7, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I have no idea why Albert is such a made man. I know they like his developmental philosophy for prospects in the system, but the man cannot teach big league players. It's a different skill set. Keep him on for the minors and bring in someone who can help the individual players with swing mechanics when they get in a rut if need be.

Woh. Didn’t see this one coming.

One thing I'll say about the St. Louis Cardinals.

They don't tolerate losing for very long.

Shildt managed the hell out of this squad.

A paper thin roster full of cast-offs from other organizations, no discerinable bench talent, decaying players on shit contracts and octogenarian starting pitchers that Shildt managed to get damn nice productivity out of.

When everyone had written them off, he got them playing their best ball of the season. And yeah, I'd have gone Whitley over Reyes, but FFS, they were 0-11 w/ RISP. He can't hit for 'em. That game could've gone 4 more innings and we still lose.

Mike Shildt is a DAMN good major league manager. Meanwhile John Mozeliak has done a piss poor job for about 8 years now and he's ****ing bulletproof.

Shildt saved Mozeliak's job in 2018 and frankly he may have pulled his ass from the fire again this year. And his reward was getting fired by a guy who's nowhere near as good at building a team as Shildt is at running it.

I hope Mike Shannon was right and Bill DeWitt is looking to sell the team. That guy's as senile as Biden at this point. This is goddamn asinine.

Bill DeWitt says his goal is to win 87 games. Shildt has averaged a pro-rated 91/season in his time at manager.

They absolutely tolerate being slightly better than average so long as your a quiet little yes man when Mozeliak tells you that he's going to get get you Jon Lester and JA Happ to save your season.

Sounds like Shildt saw $60 million in completely unproductive roster chaff come off the payroll and was no longer willing to bite his tongue.

This is all about Mozeliak needing a puppet manager and DeWitt continuing to be snowed by this ****ing charlatan.

Not near as bad as extending Matt Carpenter and a host of other blunders with personnel. Mo can’t evaluate young talent, and then overvalues those who are at best past their peak or as in the case of Andrew Miller…flat out toasted.

Schildt is a terrible manager who doesn't know when to say no.

Reyes coming in there with the game on the line and bullpen literally full of guys who didn't have a 7 ERA since the Allstar break are all you need to know he is bad at his job.