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-   -   News Passenger flight from Wichita collides with military helicopter in D.C. (https://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=356936)

Marcellus 01-31-2025 02:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaFace (Post 17946559)
And, likewise, you can't see below a jet very well either, so it's pretty likely that neither aircraft saw the other.

I'd be surprised if there was a true error on the ATC side, as it sounds like the flight rules in the area allow for visual separation. The ATC pointed out the heading of the CRJ, and the Black Hawk pilot confirmed that they had a visual on it. That very probably seems like a miscommunication and mistake on the pilot's part. All that said, I think it's a very valid question if the flight rules in the area should be reconsidered.

All that said, others have alluded to the "swiss cheese" metaphor, and it's very likely that it applies here. Some level of fault lies with:
-BH flying "dark" and, therefore, not visible on CRJ's equipment
-Short-staffed ATC having one person working multiple roles, which isn't unusual but might need to be considered due to the complexity of this airspace
-ATC not understanding that the BH couldn't actually have a visual on the CRJ (assuming that's true)
-Rules that allow helicopters to fly directly into the descent path at all
-Rules that allow for visual separation in the area
-Simple BH pilot error

Time will tell what they conclude in the investigation, but it sure seems like this is iffy enough that they should change how things operate in the area.
Probably a combination of those thigs listed which is almost always the case.

The staffing issue seems to be pretty glaring to me though. That's WHY the ATC exist, to keep this shit from happening.

Megatron96 01-31-2025 02:17 PM
Rarely will the NTSB/FAA find that an accident was the result of just one mistake. It usually is a domino effect of several mistakes. They will usually find that one aircrew/group was mostly responsible. Until we have a lot more information, we're all just guessing.

seamonster 01-31-2025 02:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaFace (Post 17946559)
And, likewise, you can't see below a jet very well either, so it's pretty likely that neither aircraft saw the other.

I'd be surprised if there was a true error on the ATC side, as it sounds like the flight rules in the area allow for visual separation. The ATC pointed out the heading of the CRJ, and the Black Hawk pilot confirmed that they had a visual on it. That very probably seems like a miscommunication and mistake on the pilot's part. All that said, I think it's a very valid question if the flight rules in the area should be reconsidered.

All that said, others have alluded to the "swiss cheese" metaphor, and it's very likely that it applies here. Some level of fault lies with:
-BH flying "dark" and, therefore, not visible on CRJ's equipment
-Short-staffed ATC having one person working multiple roles, which isn't unusual but might need to be considered due to the complexity of this airspace
-ATC not understanding that the BH couldn't actually have a visual on the CRJ (assuming that's true)
-Rules that allow helicopters to fly directly into the descent path at all
-Rules that allow for visual separation in the area
-Simple BH pilot error

Time will tell what they conclude in the investigation, but it sure seems like this is iffy enough that they should change how things operate in the area.
Laughable to claim the pilot couldn't see the plane after watching that video. Especially considering <a href="https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2025/01/31/dc-plane-crash-helicopter-airport-updates/">they were flying well above their 200ft ceiling.</a>

Megatron96 01-31-2025 02:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by seamonster (Post 17946568)
Laughable to claim the pilot couldn't see the plane after watching that video. Especially considering <a href="https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2025/01/31/dc-plane-crash-helicopter-airport-updates/">they were flying well above their 200ft ceiling.</a>


You would be surprised at how often pilots can't pick up other aircraft, or to be more precise, the exact aircraft ATC is warning you about.

DaFace 01-31-2025 02:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by seamonster (Post 17946568)
Laughable to claim the pilot couldn't see the plane after watching that video. Especially considering <a href="https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2025/01/31/dc-plane-crash-helicopter-airport-updates/">they were flying well above their 200ft ceiling.</a>
I don't think any of us here have anywhere near the expertise to definitively conclude anything about what they could or couldn't see. I just know that other incidents that outsiders would conclude should have been easily avoided are less so once they really look at the factors at play. It's obviously not the same situation, but an A350 collided with a coast guard plane on the runway in Japan a year ago. People have asked how it's possible that the A350 wouldn't have seen the coast guard plane sitting on the runway, which seems logical until they actually mocked up what it would look like to the pilots...

https://i.imgur.com/IIXO6yB.png

(Note the slight break in the centerline about halfway down the runway. That's what they estimate the coast guard plane looked like to the A350 pilots.)

This is why investigations are important. We can guess all we want, but until they carefully study everything that happened, we don't really know where the fault lies.

seamonster 01-31-2025 03:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaFace (Post 17946592)
I don't think any of us here have anywhere near the expertise to definitively conclude anything about what they could or couldn't see. I just know that other incidents that outsiders would conclude should have been easily avoided are less so once they really look at the factors at play. It's obviously not the same situation, but an A350 collided with a coast guard plane on the runway in Japan a year ago. People have asked how it's possible that the A350 wouldn't have seen the coast guard plane sitting on the runway, which seems logical until they actually mocked up what it would look like to the pilots...

https://i.imgur.com/IIXO6yB.png

(Note the slight break in the centerline about halfway down the runway. That's what they estimate the coast guard plane looked like to the A350 pilots.)

This is why investigations are important. We can guess all we want, but until they carefully study everything that happened, we don't really know where the fault lies.
<img style="aspect-ratio:0.65254237288136;display:block" loading="lazy" decoding="async" width="385" height="590" src="https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2025/01/disturbing-new-videos-give-clearest-97675265.jpg?w=669" >

<img style="aspect-ratio:0.65254237288136;display:block" loading="lazy" decoding="async" width="385" height="590" src="https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2025/01/disturbing-new-videos-give-clearest-97675267.jpg?w=669">

<img style="aspect-ratio:0.65254237288136;display:block" loading="lazy" decoding="async" width="385" height="590" src="https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2025/01/disturbing-new-videos-give-clearest-97675269.jpg?w=669">

I work about a quarter mile south of where this incident took place. These helicopters are always out and they're always following a flight path that hugs the eastern Potomac river bed. Yet based on the coordinates I can see they'd drifted off course while at the same time exceeded the 200 ft ceiling.

And the helicopter pilots were warned twice by the tower yet both times claimed they (Blackhawk pilot) were taking responsibility of the visual separation between themselves and the jet. As far as I'm concerned there's nothing these Air Traffic Controllers could have done.

Megatron96 01-31-2025 03:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaFace (Post 17946592)
I don't think any of us here have anywhere near the expertise to definitively conclude anything about what they could or couldn't see. I just know that other incidents that outsiders would conclude should have been easily avoided are less so once they really look at the factors at play. It's obviously not the same situation, but an A350 collided with a coast guard plane on the runway in Japan a year ago. People have asked how it's possible that the A350 wouldn't have seen the coast guard plane sitting on the runway, which seems logical until they actually mocked up what it would look like to the pilots...

https://i.imgur.com/IIXO6yB.png

(Note the slight break in the centerline about halfway down the runway. That's what they estimate the coast guard plane looked like to the A350 pilots.)

This is why investigations are important. We can guess all we want, but until they carefully study everything that happened, we don't really know where the fault lies.


Yah, that's pretty much what airfields look like at night. people like to think that everything's lit up, and the aircraft look like X-Mas trees or something, but that's just not what it looks like in reality. When you approach an airport at night, you typically are looking for the long-ish black/unlit rectangle amid a sea of lights. As you get within a few miles you can start to see the actual runway environment lighting, but from a dozen miles away it's just a black rectangle. Other aircraft, unless they're pointed at you, are fairly dark, because recog/nav/logo lighting just isn't very bright.


Also, at B-class airports, most commercial jets are flying the ILS, so the pilots aren't even looking out the windscreen; they're focused on the glideslope indicator until they're just a few hundred feet off the ground, while they're traveling 3-4 miles/minute.l

rfaulk34 02-01-2025 12:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzzer99 (Post 17946439)
Here's the link on CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2025/01/31/us/vi...deo-ldn-digvid

Why was someone filming that?
People film planes taking off and landing all the time. Go on YT and you can find many people that stream that stuff for hours.

rfaulk34 02-01-2025 01:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by seamonster (Post 17946568)
Laughable to claim the pilot couldn't see the plane after watching that video. Especially considering <a href="https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2025/01/31/dc-plane-crash-helicopter-airport-updates/">they were flying well above their 200ft ceiling.</a>
It's not laughable at all. If there was a mistake by the BH pilot on which plane they were supposed to be focused on, they're not even looking the other way. Also, another view i saw from a CCTV camera on the side showed the plane coming down on the glide slope, so they were above the BH until a very short time before contact.

PHOG 02-01-2025 01:11 PM
I read somewhere (it might have been here) that the ATC should have given the BH pilot a clock direction to view the plane? Like, "Monitor BH helicopter at the 9 o'clock position". There was none of this as far as I've seen.

seamonster 02-01-2025 03:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rfaulk34 (Post 17947286)
It's not laughable at all. If there was a mistake by the BH pilot on which plane they were supposed to be focused on, they're not even looking the other way. Also, another view i saw from a CCTV camera on the side showed the plane coming down on the glide slope, so they were above the BH until a very short time before contact.
Feelings may get hurt but this was entirely on the pilot or co-pilot of the Helicopter. They were flying 400 feet vs 200 feet, were off course and not following their flight path, and pushed back on the tower twice when they were told to course correct. And here's their track:


<img class="ItemContent-image YCcPGnS5dPOBZH7uB0ZNs" src="https://images.jifo.co/21540871_1738258364680.png" style="left: 0px; top: 0px; pointer-events: auto; opacity: 1; width: 1072.97px; height: 478.029px; clip-path: inset(0% 0% 2.929%);" alt="Image">

That's a near criminal change in heading as far as I'm concerned.

DaFace 02-01-2025 03:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PHOG (Post 17947292)
I read somewhere (it might have been here) that the ATC should have given the BH pilot a clock direction to view the plane? Like, "Monitor BH helicopter at the 9 o'clock position". There was none of this as far as I've seen.
From the ATC transcript:

"Traffic just south of the Woodrow Bridge, a CRJ, it's 1,200 feet setting up for Runway 33."

The BH responds:

"PAT 25, has the traffic in sight, request visual separation."

I suppose a heading might have helped, but they did clearly point out the direction and got an acknowledgement.

RedinTexas 02-01-2025 04:11 PM
I haven't read the entire thread, so apologies if I'm just repeating someone else. I could be wrong here, but based on my 2,000 hours of military flying time I think they'll find the following:

Fault will be found with several. They will present everything that was outside of normal operating procedures as contributory to the accident. However, the lion's share of the blame for the accident will fall on the crew of the Blackhawk.

The Army crew was almost certainly far less experienced than the pilots of the civil aircraft and the Blackhawk was flying through the ARSA (Airport Radar Service Area.) Frankly, I'm surprised they allowed the conflict to exist even if the Army crew actually did have the traffic in sight.

Megatron96 02-01-2025 04:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaFace (Post 17947450)
From the ATC transcript:

"Traffic just south of the Woodrow Bridge, a CRJ, it's 1,200 feet setting up for Runway 33."

The BH responds:

"PAT 25, has the traffic in sight, request visual separation."

I suppose a heading might have helped, but they did clearly point out the direction and got an acknowledgement.


Yeah, once you declare "traffic in sight, request(ing) visual sep" the responsibility to maintain separation is on that (helo) crew.

rfaulk34 02-01-2025 07:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Megatron96 (Post 17947469)
Yeah, once you declare "traffic in sight, request(ing) visual sep" the responsibility to maintain separation is on that (helo) crew.
My question is, even though they know (or should know) how and where they're supposed to fly, why doesn't ATC (or why isn't it already a rule) tell them to hold their position until the plane passes?

I get that we're all adults and 'i shouldn't have to hold your hand all the time' is part of it, but why not remove any possibility of human error in that kind of instance?


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