Originally Posted by Gif Horse (Post 7914083)

Here's what Pioli inherited:

Jamaal Charles
Dwayne Bowe
Branden Albert
Brian Waters
Barry Richardson

Tamba Hali
Glenn Dorsey
Derrick Johnson
Jovan Belcher
Brandon Carr
Brandon Flowers

That's half of the current starters. HALF.

You can probably add Jon McGraw to that list now, too, since he's going to be a starter.

Players who Herm inherited who were starters in his third year.

Larry Johnson
Tony Gonzalez
Brian Waters
Derrick Johnson

Herm inherited a bunch of shit that had to be replaced.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 (Post 7914128)

Carl barely deserves any credit. That guy is the reason this team fell into the shitter. Nobody's saying anything about Herm deserving credit. We're talking about the Herm era.

But if we're talking credit, Kuharich should get credit for the personnel, and Herm should get credit for forcing the youth movement.

And while Herm doesn't deserve 100% credit for draft picks made during that era, he definitely deserves some. Coaches are very involved with the personnel process. Especially given that Kuharich and Herm were mostly on the same page.

Haley's a far better coach. But I've said for years and years that Herm got a lot of shit he didn't deserve, but that he was easily the best guy to start the process of turning this team around.

Originally Posted by WhiteWhale (Post 7914140)

I agree that Haley/Pioli inherited more young talent.

A better TEAM from top to bottom? Not chance. The team never improved under Edwards. Not season to season,and not game to game. They never, at any point, showed even a slight sign of progress.

Why did we replace kennison with bradley? Was he better?

Why did we replace Hall with Eddie Drummond? Was he better?

Why did we replace Casey with Rudy Assmonger? Was he better?

Why in the blue **** did Tony Richardson NOT retire a Chief?

Allen didn't leave KC because he was a bad pick,and we made no effort at all to replace his production which resulted in the worst pass rush in NFL history.

The holdovers obviously would not have been as young, but if you replace 7 minor positions with inferior players (younger or not) and the whole team gets worse.

Herm inherited a roster with few quality young players ( Allen and DJ) but lots of solid veteran talent. Much of which he chose to run off before he found a suitable replacement.

Haley inherited a team with a half dozen guys with good potential, but most of them were underachievers. The bottom 30 though was FAR worse than what herm inherited.

That's my opinion anyway.

Originally Posted by WhiteWhale (Post 7914151)

Also, wasn't Belcher a UFA pick up in 2009 or was he on the practice squad in 08?

I don't remember him being here until 09.

Originally Posted by WhiteWhale (Post 7914148)

Herm was the best guy to turn this around because he was possibly the only coach who could **** up so badly he could get Carl fired AND land us multiple top 10 picks. So in that regard... yeah. Sometimes you gotta hit rock bottom to start climbing back up and Herm was the perfect coach to put us at rock bottom.

Originally Posted by WhiteWhale (Post 7914113)

He didn't control personnel. I have no idea why Chiefs fans think he had 100% control over personnel but he didn't.

Originally Posted by scott free (Post 7914248)

Its very doubtful many fans thought that, but if herm didnt have atleast a strong hand in drafting, why did he inherit a bunch of crap yet end up leaving us half of the current starters this far along into the new regime?

Count me out of the herm vs. todd debate, it is no debate imo, i'll take haley every single time as a Head Coach and i still believe in most of what he's selling, despite the fact that he HAS proven to be beyond 'meddlesome' with oc's, to this teams detriment.

Give herm his due, this team collected more talent under him in three years than in the preceding eight, you cant say he didnt strongly influence those drafts.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 (Post 7914305)

but the QB the coach was given.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 (Post 7914305)

Haley is clearly a superior coach.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 (Post 7914305)

Frankly, I still believe that right now it's looking like the problem isn't the coach, but the QB the coach was given.

Originally Posted by Gif Horse (Post 7914351)

There's definitely some truth in there, but as much as I'd like to, you can't blame 41-7 solely on the QB.

Originally Posted by KCChiefsfan88 (Post 7914465)

The #'s don't lie...

2 seasons and 1 game into the third season for the Herm/Carl regime and the Haley/Pioli regime:

Herm/Carl: 13-21 (0-1 in the playoffs, scored 8 points in playoff lost)
Haley/Pioli: 14-20 (0-1 in the playoffs, scored 7 points in playoff lost)

Originally Posted by KCChiefsfan88 (Post 7914465)

The #'s don't lie...

2 seasons and 1 game into the third season for the Herm/Carl regime and the Haley/Pioli regime:

Herm/Carl: 13-21 (0-1 in the playoffs, scored 8 points in playoff lost)
Haley/Pioli: 14-20 (0-1 in the playoffs, scored 7 points in playoff lost)

Both regimes had their only playoff seasons with the NFC West on the schedule.

The book on Haley is pretty clear now... his ego has destroyed any chance of the Chiefs attracting/retaining high quality assistant coaches and having any legit championship aspirations.

The book on Pioli is now being exposed and it is exposing Pioli as a FRAUD. Pioli's 2009 draft looks like an epic disaster and his 2010 draft has huge holes in it (see the second round draft picks). The most productive players on the roster are mostly players drafted by Carl (Jamaal Charles, Derrick Johnson, Tamba Hali, Dwayne Bowe, etc.) Pioli also has yet to sign an impact free agent.