Frank Clark was hand picked by him.

In hindsight that was a poor choice. At the time though it wasn’t. KC Clark is not Seattle Clark.

Sure, but the lack of production up front is his own doing.

Yep. Let's not pretend that Spags has had no input regarding personnel.

I'm not a Spags hater, but this idea that no one could do better is ridiculous. No one could possibly make better adjustments or be quicker to adjust? No one could prepare the team better or make better calls?

Sure, sure....

That’s a big leap to say anyone is saying ANY coordinator.

Many are saying we could probably do better but we could also do way worse. This defense may not be stellar but spags the past few years isn’t nearly as bad as the critics are claiming he’s been. And his point is more than fair that not many are going to have a top defense with this much youth.

Now the pass rush issues may be a problem of his own creation. But that is a different story entirely.

Some of you guys weren't watching the Franchise at the beginning, I guess. In one of the first episodes, Veach describes how the Frank Clark thing happened between him and Spags. Basically, Veach put together a short list of possible DEs, and Spags said something to the effect of, "I like him (Clark), he can do a little of everything." Spags pointed out a couple other guys he liked, but between Frank's more multiple skillset and what it would take to get him, Veach went with Clark.

Probably you're wasting your breath, but I applaud the effort.

It's funny, Spagnuoulo has two Rings, and in both Super Bowls you have to admit that his defenses were a big part of the W. Tom Brady has said in interviews that Spags' defense was the most difficult for him to read in any Super Bowl that he's played in. What is that, ten?

But that's not enough for Chief Fan.

He took a scrapyard of castoffs from Uncle Bob, guys like KPass and Ragland that Bob wouldn't even play, and remade them into viable rotational players. Added Frank Clark and Tyrann Mathieu, and in one year remade them into a SB winning defense. Started the season as the worst defense in the league and by week 12 they were a top 15 unit. By the playoffs they were top-5.

But he sucks.

Whatever. When every HC and OC in the league mentions Spags as one of the best DCs in the league, when a 7 time SB winner acknowledges Spags, that's probably a better barometer of his abilities than CP Chief Fan 9 times out of 10.

Except that's exactly what he said.

Sure but in his career overall as a DC, his defenses rank on average 19th in yards and 15th in points. Even Sutton's defenses were typically better being on average 19th in yards and 11th in points.

He's really been an average DC over the course of his career.

Need to bring Jim Johnson back from the dead and reunite him w/ Reid.

Champions for next 10yrs.

He literally built two separate top-5 defenses from scratch, including the one that was dead last the year before the NYG won LVII, against a prime TB, an undefeated Patriots team, and what might've been the greatest offensive unit in NFL history.

He did it again with the Giants a few years later, and then did it again with the Chiefs.

He's the only DC in NFL history to win a Ring with two separate teams.

Comparing him to Sutton is a hilariously bad take, especially when you look at Sutton's inability to even evaluate the players he had and didn't play while he was with the Chiefs. Sutton's defenses were only good when he had All-Pros all over the field. Spags has consistently been able to field good defenses with mostly nobodies.

But like I said, Chief Fans generally aren't terribly discerning.

Yeah because Spags never had all pros/hall of famers on those good defenses.

But a surprisingly solid DC in the postseason. And until he actually costs us a season he deserves way more credit than he gets around here. Don’t get me wrong, he makes me nervous. But he has usually had the defense in good enough shape when we absolutely need him. And yeah he does deserve some grace in a season where we are asking him to do all this with an incredibly young secondary.

Lol, look at that defense the year before the LVII SB. They were around 25th. The following year they're top-10. And look at the beginning of that season and the stats, W/L, and tell me that anyone thought that was a top-10 defense. Because no one thought that. But they kept working, and by the end of the season they were a top-10 unit. that beat the best offense in NFL history. They allowed just two TDs in that SB.

Look at the STL defense when he got there. 30th, iirc. The following season, top 12.

Then he goes back to NYG, after one season with NOR, and takes that bottom third defense and makes them a top-third defense.

And so on.

I'm not saying he's the greatest ever, because he obviously has some flaws, but to say he isn't a top 10 DC is kind of ignorant. History is pretty clear about that.

I like the quote on kcchiefs.com for the Spags Press Conference this week.

"We ended up with more points than they did."

Geeze thanks for the brilliant insight Spags. Who knew?

Ah yes...let's condescend all KC fans because your opinion differs from a few. Who are you even arguing with? Not that many people are calling for Spags' job, and the post about Sutton was just a fact. You can discern fact from opinion, right?

But while we're talking about Sutton, does he get any credit for taking over a defense that was near the bottom in points allowed and immediately producing a top 5 scoring defense? And keeping them top 5ish for four years straight? He was top 10 in scoring defense in 5 of 9 seasons as a DC. Saying that he can't be compared to Spags is your opinion, and not necessarily one with a lot of facts to support it.

Your comparisons are far from objective. You highlight every positive achievement of Spags and ignore the bad. He's had plenty of unimpressive seasons, especially if you factor in his years as head coach.

I was fully in favor of ditching Sutton, but we don't have to pretend like his replacement is above criticism.

Before Spags got to NY: 24th in yards and 7th in points

Year after: 17th in yards and 7th in points

Similar to Sutton's improvement when he joined the chiefs. I will say Spags is A LOT better in the postseason which is what matters.

And, you need to check your numbers on the Rams. They got worse after Spags joined.

Meh, I'm over it really. But as to the Rams, i believe they got worse, then they got better, It took two seasons. Then it fell off, but he was trying to be HC by then, so probably wasn't really on top of everything on defense at that point.

Also, it's convenient for people to point out how stacked those Giant defenses wre with All-Pros and future HOFers, but how else can you build a top-tier defense? You need players. But he didnt have a ton of them in STL, or when he came to KC, but he still managed to improve their performance, and yet no acknowledgement from the fans. Never saw Sutton do that. His defense only worked when it was stacked from top to bottom with top-tier players at every level. When he didn't have a prime EB, Houston, etc., his defenses were bad. And situationally they were predictable. And bad.

But it's a moot point. For me, anyway. CP is the most negative Chiefs group I've ever been around. Not to say that there aren't positive CPers, but there's a ton of negative Nancys as well. CP is going to CP. I have a more optimistic perspective in life, so whatever. We could use two more quality DLs and the defense would be a top third unit for as long as we could keep t together under Spags. It's just always going to be hard to get those two guys.

Sutton inherited Justin Houston, Dontari Poe and Eric Berry in their prime as well as older but still elite caliber players like DJ, Flowers and Tamba. Also a pretty solid player in Allen Bailey. He had those players for years.

Spags inherited a permanently broken Eric Berry, Justin Houston, Chris Jones and brokedick Dee Ford.

Spags replaced 9 starters that year and won the SB. Only Chris Jones and Daniel Sorenson were starters from the Sutton era.

There’s your difference

Nice. Christmas Rep.

I mean he also got his hand picked 1st round DE trade and all pro Tyrann Matheiu. It's not like he was working with nothing.


I have to ask though, does anyone think we wouldn't have won a Superbowl if we had Mahomes instead of Alex Smith 2013-2017? We lost multiple playoff games where we allowed 18 or less points lol. But yeah again, Spags is a superior post season DC than Sutton.

People bitching about Spags deserve a ****ing horrible coach like Donatell as their DC.

Just go be a fan of another team, though. I don't want somebody as bad as Donatell near my team.

This Vikings game is making me super thankful for Spags.

Mahomes would've been like 15 in 2013.

Heard this while watching a recent SB, forget which one now. But they were saying that on average a SB team will produce at least a handful of HOFers, including an average of two or three on defense. How many HOF defenders do you think we had on the 2019 team? Breeland or Ward? Hitchens? i like Tyrann, but I doubt he's a HOFer.

I think when they hired Spags they needed him to coach the defense up well enough take advantage of a rookie contract window. Mission accomplished.

Everything has changed now that Patrick got his mega deal. Everything is harder.

But I think there’s things everyone can agree on:

-The LB duo of Gay/Bolton is as good as we’ve seen from the team in a long time
-The secondary minus maybe Thornhill looks significantly better than last year and Spags is good at finding quality cheap corners.
-Karlaftis is flashing but is only 21. Looks like a solid player at worst moving forward.

If we can get the pass rush buffed up from the DL next year I think that changes the entire defense

This is what some of the professional analysts were saying before the season started. The DL was going to be weak against the run and needed to upgrade from Nnadi and get a real run-stuffing DT. The other thing was to improve the pass rush, probably through FA because KC couldn't draft high enough to get a real top-third EDGE. The result this year was going to be a Dl that was weak vs. the run (somehow we avoided that mostly) and an average pass rush. Those people thought Spags would use his blitz schemes to shore up the pass rush until he could try and get some new players next season.

Remind me what playoff game spags has lost for us?

Because weve lost two playoff games under his watch and it’s very hard to blame either on him. In fact we followed up an embarrassing bengals regular season game with a pretty damn good showing on defense in the playoffs. Apart from struggling against an excellent bills offense our defense has mostly come through for us in the playoffs.

Wow. You got me there! Great point!

Did you not read the last sentence of that post?

Lolz, just messing with you, dude. Don't be all excitable about it.:D

I have fond memories of the days when the likes of Dick Curl (I know he wasn't a DC but you gotta love the name), Gunther Cunningham, Bob Sutton, Greg Robinson, and Romeo Crennel were roaming the sidelines.

Again, what game has spags lost for us in the playoffs?

Not sure what point you’re making if it revolves around 1 bad game out of 9, in a game that we won, against an offense that put up 47 the week before against an excellent New England defense.

Our only two playoff exits were largely to blame on the offense.

Dick Curl.

Would be giving up a 2 possession lead after halftime be a qualifier for that?

Or did our offense not stop the opponents offense enough?

If KC’s D were so loaded, why were they 26th in points allowed the year before Sutton arrived? And does he get credit for having them at #5 in his first year and keeping them in that ballpark for several years?

And I think Reid/Mahomes/Kelce/Hill/etc deserve a little more credit for the SB run than the defense that allowed 25 ppg in the playoffs.

Again, I’m not trying to run Spags out of town, but it’s okay to call it like it is.

The Colts’ offense scored 22 pts on 16 possessions and averaged 4.3 yds per play. They got 3 pts out of their last 9 possessions.

I've said that I only blame Spags if he has a part in picking the front 4 players.

Mahomes wins it in 2015 and probably at least one more too. They should have played him in the 2017 playoffs. Golden opportunity missed. Nick Foles won it that year for God’s sake.

Spags defense allowed 7 points in the second half of the Divisional Round game.

7 points in the second half of the AFCCG

10 points in the SB, and 7 of those were off the Mahomes INT that gave Sf a short field.

The offense followed that up by turning it over again, but that time Spags defense forced a punt.

if not for that INT in the SB, Spags defense would've allowed just 17 points in 6 quarters of playoff action.

Spags defense performed very well when we had to have it. Consistently.

Spags defense allowed 7 points in the second half of the Divisional Round game.

7 points in the second half of the AFCCG

10 points in the 2nd half of the SB, and 7 of those were off the Mahomes INT that gave SF a short field.

The offense followed that up by turning it over again, but that time Spags defense forced a punt.

if not for that INT in the SB, Spags defense would've allowed just 17 points in 6 quarters of playoff action.

Spags defense performed very well when we had to have it. Consistently.

Sutton?

And despite the ****ing defense being loaded with talent and still adding to it (Dee Ford/Marcus Peters), that mother****er STILL took that defense to shit by 2018.

John Dorsey and Bob Sutton had so many opportunities to keep adding to this defense. Dee Ford, Marcus Peters, Tanoh Kpassagnon, KeiVarae Russell, Phillip Gaines.

Do ANY of those guys even come close to guys you’d give a 2nd contract to?

Now look at the guys Spags has drafted like Nick Bolton, Willie Gay and L’Jarius Sneed.

Sutton was handed talent. Spags wasn’t

Spags blows

Who in the living **** would blame our defense for losing to cincy?

We lost a 2 possession lead BECAUSE of our offense.

you said that already. you have a stroke or something?

Anyone with a clue beyond their fanboi fandumb and looking at it from all sides of the ball.

We lost a 2 possession lead because the defense couldn't stop the Bengals offense from scoring more points. We lost because the defense couldn't stop them in 3rd and forever if their life depended on it.

Point I'm trying to make is it always is a 2 way street. You can pick and choose any reason you want to find. The offense built a 2 possession lead. The Defensive Coordinator that you want to fall on the sword for has made public claims that his defensive scheme plays it's best when the offense has built a lead. Yet, that never seems to be the happen.

Hold him accountable for his responsibilities. So many times it has been bad from his end. For just an example that is quick off my memory. There was an instance last week where it was 3rd and 4, Denver had the ball and he takes Willie Gay his best sideline to sideline LB off the field to insert a 4th CB. Denver converts the 3rd down with the RB picking up the 1st and eventually goes on to score. Point is this, put your best players on the field in those crucial situations. They don't convert there and they don't go on down and score. And this was with the shitty ass denver offense.

Bengals and the Bills have to be licking their chops to face his defense again with dumb calls like that.

Exactly like NE, Philly was 13-3 that regular season with a +162 point differential. They were a great team that had dominated MN 38-7 in NFC championship game.

Philly's offensive line was great that year like they have been this year. It enabled Carson Wentz to be leading MVP candidate before he went down and Foles to win Super Bowl MVP. And New England's defense couldn't pressure him, secondary was compromised and front 7 just wasn't tough enough without Hightower.

Trying to beat both NE and Philly in 2017 would be a tough task for rookie Mahomes/KC. NE's team was markedly better in 2017 than 2018 even if their defense wasn't at its best in playoffs.

The big opportunity the Chiefs missed with Mahomes on the team was 2018 since I can't picture the 2018 injured Rams beating the Chiefs in sB. That NE team was not that great by SB standards. In terms of talent, 2nd weakest SB winning Patriots team and much weaker than 2010 Patriots that lost in first round of playoffs. In a different sort of way, NE matched up well with KC like last years Cincy team but that 2018 NE team played its A- game and Chiefs played their B game.

But how you play on any given Sunday and matchups matters.

A bunch of teams that can do what ifs. Rams probably beat Patriots in 2018 SB if they had Cooper Kupp who was having a very good year before injury and their running back was healthy. Tampa probably repeats in easier fashion last year if every team had all of their players full healthy.

Lol, wut?

The Chiefs offense scored just 3 points in the 2nd half of that game. No one is winning a playoff game scoring 3 points in a half.

I know it was early in the year, but 2017 NE was blown out at home by Alex Smith. And they didn’t exactly face murderers row in the playoffs (Mariota and Bortles at home, then Foles). Hard for me to believe that team was markedly better than one that swept Mahomes and one of the best offenses in NFL history.

You make a lot of disingenuous points.

Let’s look at it this way…do teams win playoff games with 24 points? Yes, they do.

Is this a joke?

We gave up 24 points to an elite offense. 7 of those points coming off an interception. We intercepted the ball on a critical possession and we threw and out’ed it. We won the coin toss and we gift wrapped them the winning score with an interception.

We gave up 24 points despite our offense giving our defense horrible field position and putting them on the field the entire second half.

What halfway reasonable person blames the bengals loss on our defense. That is a stretch Armstrong reach right there. Our second half offense wasn’t just bad. It was on another level of terrible

yes they do. In the playoffs? Against a team that's just about as good on offense? In what universe is 3 points in an entire half going to be good enough unless we're talking about complete outlier games? This isn't the 60s-90s anymore. There's no 85 Bears defense on our horizon with the way games are officiated these days.

This is what the NFL and the fans wanted. More scoring. So no, 3 pts in a half is not going to do it in 2022. Believe what you want, bud. But you can't win in this era scoring a FG in a half in the playoffs, barring wild extenuating circumstances.

Very true. The key to winning in this league now is to have an elite offense and a competent defense that can pressure the QB.

Gatekeeping fandom is pathetic

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We're just hurting for pass rushers

Clark is what he is
Karlaftis is getting close but is still green
Danna only flashes once in a blue moon
Dunlap makes plays in other ways, but doesn't visit the backfield enough

They all hustle and try hard, but we simply don't have a speedy spark that takes everything up a notch

Spags did fine. Pacheco gave up 7.

The Team stats vs. HOU. The defense dominated. The issue, again, was turnovers. Well, and that completely moronic "illegal blindside block" on Jerrick. HOU was gifted five 1st downs by penalty. otherwise, they only converted 4 3rd downs out of 10. Gained less than 4 yds/play, less than 100 yds rushing, barely over 100 yds passing. just have to stop turning the ball over multiple times on our side of the field!
https://www.espn.com/nfl/matchup/_/gameId/401437909

This offseason the vast majority of people on CP wanted a change at OC: basically anyone but Bieniemy or Nagy. Many wanted us to get the young wunderkind OC from Kentucky Liam Coen and were disappointed when he instead went to the Rams.

Fast forward and the Chiefs have the best offense in the league, the Rams have one of the worst, and Liam Coen has ignominiously returned to Kentucky as OC.

Just a cautionary tale.

It’s almost as if the Chiefs know better than the fans.

You’re right. 3 points in the 2nd half just wasn’t enough. They needed 4.

The point was that it’s not just about the lack of points. It’s the back to back to back three and outs. Which hurts field position and tires the defense out. It was our back breaking interception. It’s winning the coin toss then throwing a pick and gifting the bengals a go ahead score. You can’t go up against burrow and think that’s acceptable. The offense lost us this game. For a guy who apologizes constantly for mahomes without a shadow of a doubt this loss was on the offense.

See? you're figuring it out now.

Yep. Got it all figured out. 24 points just ain’t gonna cut it in this era. But 25? Now THAT is a different story.

Actually it's 25.5 points

I’ve never said the offense and Mahomes didn’t deserve some of the blame. Of course they did. He had a poor second half.

Not even sure why we’re talking about that game, to be honest. Last year’s defense was better than this one. But while we’re on the subject, Cincinnati’s offense wasn’t that incredible last year. They were less experienced and their OL was awful. They scored more in KC than vs any of the other three playoff opponents. In fact, aside from the two games vs KC, they didn’t reach 27 vs anyone but a depleted Baltimore team over their last 10 games.

Btw, that TB defense CIN just played? They gave up 31 pts in the 2nd half to that same CIN offense. And on paper, TB's defense is far better than ours.

So much for believing that our defense should've been able to hold CIN down for an entire half, huh?

maybe we shouldn't have traded fenton for nothing

Lol the hopium is strong in you

Btw, let’s flip this around. Do you think that teams that allow 17 or more 2nd half points in a playoff game win a high percentage of the time?

Lol

How about DAL? Gave up 27 in the 2nd half against JAX. Had a 14 pt lead at the half.

Why should I care about Dallas? I care about the Chiefs.

Apparently Dallas’s defense is struggling. That doesn’t mean that KC’s isn’t.

Nice pivot:clap:

Yeah, but Burrow had four TDs while throwing for 200 yards. Didn’t Tampa have 4-5 turnovers in the second half giving the Bengals great field position? Not a good example there.

5 turnovers in a row for Tampa, followed by a pretty quick punt as well. 6 straight really bad drives for the Bucs, lol

one thing not being talked about is jones illness

i don't think he was close to 100% today and it had a huge impact on the pass rush

in a league where dallas narrowly beat the texans last week and the eagles almost lost to the bears today, i'm not splitting hairs over what amounted to giving up 17 on defense

pacheco doesn't fumble and juju doesn't fumble you're probably talking about a chiefs blowout

^this^

We've given up 30 points or more once this year, 31, to Bucs who scored two mop up TD's. We've lost 3 games by a combined 10 points, with the worst loss being 4 points. If we take care of the ball and the game is ref'd evenly, we can beat anyone.

Yeah the defense did their job as much as could be expected. Hard to pin that loss on them.

At least they were playing a team that doesn't completely suck

The minutiae is irrelevant. The point is, they stopped scoring. TB had a 14 point lead at the half, similar to how the Chiefs had a double-digit lead in the AFCCG, but their top-10 defense couldn't win the game for them in the second half, could they? Their offense stopped scoring, and CIN came back and beat them. Period.

The argument i've always made since the AFCCG has always been the offense has to keep scoring, and I don't care how great that defense is in this modern pass-happy NFL. it's just not a thing.

The rules are just stacked too far in favor of the offenses. KC lost the AFCCG last year because the offense collapsed and stopped scoring, period. They had at least three separate opportunities to score TDs and failed to execute. That's how the Chiefs lost that game. Not "the defense didn't hold them down for an entire half like they were supposed to."

Anyway, that's my two cents. Carry on

They definitely gotta stop turning the ball over. 9 times outta 10, we are own worse enemy so many self inflicted wounds

we gave up 4.4 yards per pass and 3.4 yards per rush

in any week, against any opponent, that is a dominant performance

stop turning the ****ing ball over and stop drawing cheffers