Sorry, but I read this article this morning and thought it was a bunch of horseshit.

If Clark had been Seahawks Clark instead of Crohns/whatever Clark, we wouldn't be having half of these conversations.

We've been handcuffed to an extremely expensive JAG for three years.

Edge rushers under like 250-255 at a minimum are called 3-4 OLB'ers. Now, if you want to argue that a 3-4 base is a better idea than a 4-3, that's an entirely different argument.

There are fair criticisms; I think Spags is perhaps too loyal sometimes to individual players (Sorensen's and whatnot). I think sometimes in the past his coverage schemes were perhaps too complicated - although I think he's deliberately been less so this year with so many rookies and new players.

But this idea that the game has passed him by is stupid. Fangio is a ****ing dinosaur running cover two and cover four-which are literally like 1960's schemes and it's all the rage in the NFL-as long as you can rush the passer with 4. If you can't, then you'd best not even TRY to run it.

Other than to call it interesting, that piece was submitted without comment... so chill out, gang

And ftr no, I dont agree with all of its conclusions... give Spags a D line like he had with the NYG, and a lotta people would be changing their tune

I was listening to the local ESPN radio station. They were talking to one of the Chiefs sports columnists who said he didn't expect Spags to be around next year due to the performance of the defense. Sorry but I don't remember who they were talking to, but I would imagine the guy is heard on 810 as well.

Wasn't bagging on ya, bud. Was just asking questions and making a couple observations.

Saying the Chiefs defense has been in “steady decline” is hillarious. How can anyone watch this from last year and think for one second that this years defense isn’t much better?

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Yeah but you accidentally made the point on why Spags is shit. HE DOESN'T have that D-Line and his inability to adjust accordingly is worthy of being fired.

Face it,

Unless Spags has HoF worthy Pass Rush he has been shiiiiiiit to above average. He has NEVER been considered a great D-Coordinator and never will be.

We cannot settle on things that affect game play. We need to find a new DC.

My money says you'll be disappointed in 2023

Veach is gonna revamp the D line and roll with Spags again I bet

What adjustment exactly would you like him to make?

Pull a Micah Parsons out of his ass, duh!

It doesn't matter who the DC is. We have Patty. If the D gives up 30 he'll get 35. If the D gives up 40 he'll get us 42. As long as Patty gets the ball with any time on the clock we win

You aren't going to have a good defense in today's NFL without a really good DL.

49ers
Eagles
Denver
etc

It's not a secondary league anymore.

I’ve been pleased with the defense. They’ve absolutely been good enough. And that’s saying something for a young ass defense.

They did more than their fair share to win the Bills game. Same with the Colts loss. The offense lost those games.

They struggled against Herbert and Burrow. Shocker! They got scored on by elite QB’s. Wow. Hey remember when we scored 40+ on an elite Niners defense?

Even in the Bengals game the defense gave the offense every opportunity to win and they literally fumbled it away.

All 3 of our losses came because the offense couldn’t close out the game.

It's a pass-happy league and will be for the foreseeable future, but a good secondary is irrelevant? Weird.

I'd like to see him stick with whats working more often than not. I'd also like to see more Man-Zone concepts.

We are doing a good job in the middle, but outside we are leaving our rookies in too many one/one concepts.

I would also like to see him use Bolton/Gay much more in the green dog play style.

But I'd also like to see him let McDuffy shadow the #1 all game long.

This idea that we can't expect a better defensive effort than what we saw in Cincinnati is ridiculous. Plenty of defenses have done much better against them, including the week before and the week after. It's okay to say that it wasn't good. That doesn't mean that the defense sucks. Just means they did a poor job that day. People keep pointing out that they "only" scored 27. Yeah....on 7 possessions. That's 3.85 points per drive. That's higher than the MFing 07 Patriots. Let's say they had as many possessions as the Broncos had on Sunday. They'd have scored 50 at that rate. Even with the drop on a wide open TD and the failed 4th down conversion near the goal line. And the penalty that led to their only punt of the day. Incredible that people are sugarcoating that turd of a performance.

It's too tough to play physical back there.

This is why I am less critical of the trade for Clark. We traded for and paid the Seahawks Clark. No way of knowing he would fall this far this fast. Had KC known this his contract would have most likely been structured differently. I still think they make the trade as he was huge in KC winning the SB and as the old saying goes “Flags fly forever”.

Lots of glamour positions in the NFL, but at the end of the day more games are won and lost based off of line play than any other area (even possibly QB).

Frankly, I'm not sure how someone can say this defense is playing better than last year at this time. Let alone much better.

Last year at this time, they had just finished three straight games of allowing exactly NINE points. One vs a Cowboys offense that was ranked at the top of the league, and another vs a solid Raiders offense. Their points allowed over the second half of the season was at or near the top of the NFL. Yet the fanbase declared it a shit defense for allowing a big 4th quarter by the Bills, and for giving up points vs the Chargers and Bengals on the road.

When the defense gets shredded this year, we hear "duh, that's what happens when you play good offenses!"

Go figure.

FIRE THE DC WHO WEVE MADE IT TO THE LAST 4 AFC TITLE GAMES WITH

Barring a Sutton-esque collapse Spagnuolo will be back next year. The fact that we do not have the #32 ranked defense in spite of the youth and draft position on this team is pretty impressive. It can always improve though, but it’s not as doom and gloom as some want to make it seem.

Three. 2018 was the year of the Grandpa Bob defense.

Overall, I don't think it's too bad, but the Bengals game was about as gloomy as it gets.

Very true. This defense has bad games, but considering how young it is and how poorly the veterans outside of Jones and Sneed have played this defense should be worse than it is.

They played a bad game just like the offense did in Indy.

They held the Bills to 24 points and Colts to 20. Guess who lost those games?

The defense hasn't played up to their potential yet this season.

They've had games where they played well, like the TB or the 49ers game, or managed to keep KC in the game in the second half, like the most recent LAC game when they held them to a single TD in the second half. The DEN game they did exactly what they needed to, getting 6 sacks, two picks (neither by a S though), a 30% 3rd-down conversion rate, a 31% scoring efficiency rate, etc. and so on, but somehow allowed 4 TDs. If they'd just forced DEN to score at their usual rate (1 TD, 2-3 FGs/gm), maybe we're not having this conversation.

But they also have had some pretty bad games, like the CIN game, when they needed help from CIN's mistakes to keep it under 30.

The DL has not been able to even get pressure consistently without some kind of help for most of the season. And the secondary has not taken advantage when the front-7 has gotten pressure and forced the offense to make poor decisions with the football. Mostly that's probably on the safeties, but regardless, they aren't making other teams pay for mistakes.

The result has been the inability to generate turnovers and/or get 3rd-4th down stops. And this defense is supposed to be designed around that principle. If the DL can't get pressure consistently without help and the secondary (especially the Ss) can't capitalize when they do, this defense is going to struggle, and having rookies all over the place is probably going to magnify those issues.

The DL has to start generating pressure without help and the secondary, the safeties in particular, have to start making some plays, not just covering well. I know, CJ is having a great year, and I'm not saying he's part of the problem. But someone else or a couple other DLs need to start making more plays in the pass rush.

Are you really comparing the defense to the best offense in the NFL? I'd gladly give them a pass for Cincinnati if they'd been the best defense in the NFL all year.

All units were to blame for the Colts game. Mostly special teams. If Butker were available and Moore doesn't muff the punt, they win that game comfortably. Let's not forget, though, that despite all the bullshit that occurred, they still had a lead with a few minutes left. And what happened? The D allows one of the worst offenses in the league to drive the length of the field and score an easy TD.

We can't expect an offense to be perfect and drop 35 every week and never turn the ball over. The defense needs to be better, especially in the red zone.

1) Well, we can't get consistent pressure without blitzing; the problem with blitzing is that you end up short in coverage. So I guess you'd prefer to just let the Joe Burrows of the league sit there all day, but with the rules the way they are, someone will get open eventually. So Spags rolls the dice. It is what it is.

2)Green dog schmean dog. I don't see the opposition leaving a lot of extra blockers in, unless we're blitzing. We do, for example, blitz a LB quite a bit. So you know, numbers in coverage issues again.
Unless you're privy to the actual playcall, I doubt you have any idea what Gay or Bolton's responsibilities are on any given play.

3)Mcduffie is playing well, but he's still a rookie. I see a lot simpler back end scheme than in previous years, and I'm sure that's due to the three rookies. I'm sure leaving guys on their specific side is part of that.


I'm not sure why it is that so many of you don't get that we have Jones doubled and NOBODY ELSE CAN GET HOME. We don't win the one on ones enough up front, and we'll look bad against quality QB's when that's true.

You can fire Spags; and whomever takes over will have the same issues unless we get more pass rush from the front four.

Lest we forget the defense stopped them until Jones got a penalty for mean words, but I get your point.

I don't know how you could watch a JAG like Gabe Davis absolutely destroy Mike Hughes last year and think that the secondary is irrelevant.

You need both, and it's better to have a good cheap secondary so you can use the money and valuable resources going forward on the DL.

I think Spags needs to be gone. Not because he's terrible, but because we can do better, and we have to do everything possible to maximize our potential while we have Mahomes.

But let's be honest; with as loyal as Andy is, he isn't going anywhere.

Yup. Hell without McDuffie or Gay the Bills Barry got TD’s past Williams. They were just perfectly placed passes despite good coverage.

Last year those guys were wide open with nobody within 10 yards of them

Unless a new DC comes with a proper NT and a pair of plus pass rushing EDGE rushers, it wouldn't make any difference.

If there's a clear upgrade available, it should be done. I like Spags the person, and he's okay as a coach, but this is a business. Wasting Mahomes' prime years due to loyalty to a friend would be ludicrous. They already wasted one of the best offensive seasons in NFL history by being too loyal to Grandpa Bob.

Exactly! Because the line can’t get consistent pressure they have to blitz and hope the QB makes a mistake. Leaving QBs like Burrow all day to throw the ball with those receivers is foolish. Look at the 2007 Patriots. They were unstoppable until the SB when the Giants Dline consistently pressured and harassed Brady and that elite offense was neutralized and they lost the SB.

Except who right now would be better with the personnel that the defense has? Until KC can get pressure consistently with people on the line not named Jones it won’t matter. It would be a new scheme with similar results. That is unless anyone can show a good to great defense that was so without pressuring the QB.

True, but they still allowed a 16 play 76 yd clock-eating TD drive at the worst possible time. There was even a holding penalty and they still allowed Ryan's corpse to pick up the 20 yds.

This defense may (hopefully) be good enough to win a SB with our offense, but let's face it...it's been disappointing. Still holding out hope that it'll improve before the biggest games.

For starters, I'm assuming they're going to do what they can to upgrade the pass rush in the offseason. We know that Clark isn't likely to be back, and hopefully they'll find a replacement who is more productive. I would assume they'll add at least one more too (unless they re-sign Dunlap). And hopefully Karlaftis makes a jump in year two.

But I also think it's silly to say that no one could have better results with this personnel. We've seen Denver have pretty consistent results despite a bunch of injuries to their top players and trading Chubb away. Do you really think all those JAGs they've been putting out there lately are far superior to KC's?

DEN's defense hasn't really been that good, ftr.

Case in point, they let a Sam Darnold-led CAR team score 23 on them, amass 349 yds, 8.6 yds/passing att, the Panthers only offensive weapon, DJ Moore went off for 103 yds and a TD, Sam Darnold a 104 p-rtg, and zero sacks.

Never mind what they allowed KC to do before the INT fest happened.

Those teams tackle. Forget about the DL, or secondary, THOSE. TEAMS. TACKLE.

Spags has never had a good tackling team in KC.

Some of you definitely benefit from texting and typing on this board, because some of the posters wouldn't be able to talk with Spags dick in their mouth.

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THIS IS FN STUPID BECAUSE SPAGS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CHIEFS BEING IN THE AFC CHAMPIONSHIP GAMES.

MAHOMES IS RESPONSIBLE FOR TAKING US TO THOSE CHAMPIONSHIP GAMES.

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Barring his voluntary retirement or his untimely death, Spags will be here until Reid retires, because Reid can't make coaching changes.

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Andy is not going to fire Spags unless it's Sutton-level bad.

In addition to edge we really need a veteran corner.

Or, your new DC hires competent coaches for the secondary and safeties, and then the new DC coaches and emphasizes tackling.



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With respect, I disagree about a CB. We have Sneed, who is pretty good, and it looks like McDuffie is going to be a solid CB for years to come. And this is just my humble opinion, but I think both Jaylen and Joshua are going to turn out just fine. Maybe not legit starters, but solid subs at the very least.

We need a ball-hawking, hard hitting SS like the 49ers' Hufanga.

Let's be fair here. If we're going to judge a unit by its worst day, then we'd have to say that KC's D is terrible. I don't think that Carolina game is quite as bad as you're making it out to be either. They allowed 5.4 yds per play and 1.9 points per possession. Even if it's a weak offense, that's nothing to be that embarrassed about.

Denver's held 9 of 13 teams under 20 pts. Despite having an offense that consistently goes three and out.

Can you imagine the point total if KC's O was going three and out all day in Cincinnati? They'd have hung 50.

I do think Denver's defense has been a little overrated, but the impressive thing to me is that, despite losing their best edge rushers and having a lot of key injuries throughout the year, their results stayed roughly the same. That tells me they have a solid coordinator who knows how to maximize their ability.

Fair points.

Though using CAR as an example (didn't know that was their worst game, just picked that one because I knew that they were not very good on offense), and cherry-picking certain stats is just standard CP procedure. Just going with the flow, as it were.

Anyway, I could point out that the Chiefs defense overall played more than well enough to dominate DEN kn every key statistical area, except for scoring efficiency, which would be the Chiefs worst day in that regard, so should also be thrown out.

Further, I'll point out that DEN's defense as a whole has been together longer and has more veterans, and leave it at that for now.

My other point would be that DEN has played a slate of pretty pedestrian opponents this season for the most part.

But as i said during the GDT, there are obvious issues with the KC defense, and in spite of their overall dominance in that game, the unit is still underperforming, particularly on DL and at S. However, the fact that there are a lot of rookies that are obviously still in the developmental stages of their careers, as well as new faces that are still learning their roles, gives me hope that they will continue to progress and improve down the stretch.

And maybe if DEN had just gotten more BJs they would've beaten CAR?:thumb:

I will say that Denver’s defense has been solid this year, but they aren’t what they were after trading Chubb. Still need a pass rush which I think we both agree on.

The Cincinnati game set off the alarm for me. There were warning signs before, but the dam broke that day. 3.85 points per drive blows away the 07 Patriots, and they blow away everybody else. Imagine if Boyd doesn't drop a wide open TD lob. And if Dunlap isn't left unblocked on that 4th down play. Then we're talking 5.4 points per drive. And on the drive that led to their only punt, what if that OPI isn't called? They had just made a big play and were driving again. Do we have any confidence that drive wouldn't have ended with a score?

As bad as it were, it could've easily been an all-time horrific defensive performance.

I'm not too down on the defense overall, and the young players still have some time to improve before the biggest games. What annoys me is people suggesting that this defense is much better than last year's. I don't see how anybody can say that. Sure, it's easy to point to doofuses like Sorenson and Niemann, but their snap counts went way down in the 2nd half of the season.

In Nov and Dec last year, the defense allowed UNDER 13 ppg. And they played some good offenses in that stretch. Not only that, but KC's offense wasn't exactly humming during a lot of that stretch, so they weren't keeping the defense off the field.

For a bit, everybody thought the defense was great. The nat'l media was even calling it dominant and claiming they were carrying the offense. But everybody turned on them quickly after they gave up 31 in Cincinnati and of course the famous 4th quarter vs Buffalo (even though losing Mathieu had a lot to do with that).

Where was all this "that's what happens vs good offenses" talk then? All I heard all offseason was that our defense sucked ass. Weird double standard.

If at any point this season, this defense allowed under 13 ppg for two full months, I'd be ecstatic.

There's something to the "elite offenses and bad defenses" talk. When the offense was struggling and going slowly, the defense was playing better. I don't understand why, or what was happening, but they did.

This year, the offense has just put the defense in some bad spots, specifically lately.

But they also demolished the Raiders 41-14 and 48-9. Plus a 36-10 win vs Pittsburgh.

Do you think this defense would shut down last year's Raiders offense? Or Cowboys? I doubt it.

Btw, the argument that Mahomes put the defense in a bad spot vs Denver doesn't hold much water. The turnovers gave them field position at the KC 40, Denver 40 and Denver 20. That's no excuse for allowing that offense to score 4 TDs.

This is absurd.

The offense, not the defense, is largely responsible for spags’ only chiefs playoff exits. And a huge part of our Super Bowl run where we pretty much shut down 2 elite running games.

Playoff spags has done reasonably well. Not dominant but more than enough to win every game except buffalo where that was purely an offense win.

Last years Raiders? Probably. They weren't what they are this year and Pitt sucked.

I dunno that they'd have held them to that though.

I think Charvarious was a bigger loss than we all thought he'd be at CB. As good as the rookies have been, Ward was really good.

I don't know man. I feel like this defense should be better than they are, personnel issues be damned.

I don’t necessarily think the chiefs hold everything back but there’s a case to be made that they tighten everything up when they get to the playoffs. Spags has a complicated scheme that takes time to learn. And he doesn’t seem afraid to try lots of players out regardless of inexperience.

We’re in an ideal spot for our defense to make mistakes. With our schedule and the division pretty much locked up. And even trying to get the #1 seed we have the schedule advantage. If our secondary is bad at zone it’s games like last week that are great opportunities to get real uncomfortable. Not sure what we can for pass rush but at the very least there’s tremendous upside for our secondary to improve a ton. Way more opps to do that then a team desperately clinging to every single snap at this point in the season

They aren't holding shit back on defense. Defense is more about cohesion and responsibility and more so.....talent.

They give up too many points. They aren't good enough in the redzone. I don't know why specifically, but it has to get better.

I was worried at the time that Ward would be missed, and I think he has been.

The Raiders obviously didn't have a weapon like Adams last year, but they still had Waller, Jacobs, Renfrow, etc. This defense might struggle to hold them to 3 TDs in one game, let alone across two games.

I think this defense should be better than it is. Seemed like they were taking a step forward before the Cincinnati game. Then again, they were playing well before going to Cincinnati last year too and the result was similar. They're obviously a pretty bad matchup.

Like I said, my issue is with the double standard. There's no way anyone can make a rational argument that this year's defense is playing much better than last year's at this time. Just no way. And that's not a knock. I think last year's defense was good enough to win a SB.

For sure. Last years defense was plenty good enough.

The defense here isn't asked to nor should it be asked to be great or elite. The money and allocations are on the offensive side.

They've swung some of that to the defensive side for sure, but that's gonna take a bit to materialize.

When the defense holds a team to 24 or less here, it's done it's job. Sure, hold them to 10 would be great, but that's just not the way this team is currently constructed.

Make the other team punt 2 or 3 times, get a turnover etc. Losses at that point are on the offense.

I'd just like to see more FGs. Tired of every trip to the red zone ending in a TD.

Which 1 of yall wrote an article about Spags DVOA on a fake ass SI website and is spamming it on Facebook? This fan base sucks LMAO

Are you of the opinion that the defense is good?

I don’t think so either but as has been pointed out our secondary has struggled in zone. We can be more willing to experiment with different coverages and concepts now. But in the playoffs you have to accept your weaknesses and work around it or do less of it. Our gut instinct is to ask why we keep doing things if we’re bad at it, but we are in a spot right now where making mistakes isn’t always a bad thing.

They struggle to play zone because of the front 4 IMO. They can't sit back in zone with 7 because the QB has too much time. You can't play zone forever, it breaks down.

Have mostly felt the same about the defense this season. And last, for that matter. Though, imo, the defense was good enough to win a Sb last season. The offense completely collapsed vs. CIN in the 2nd half, while the defense played more than well enough to win that game. But that's old, rehashed news.

The defense needed to get younger, faster and more athletic. Well, Veach/Spags have done that. But it aint Madden; it was always going to take some time for them to learn the playbook, adjust to the speed of the NFL, gel, etc. As is normal for human beings, some are adjusting and getting comfortable quicker than others.

Will say that the more i look into it, the more it looks like the secondary misses a HB-type safety. Only 1 INT between them, and 9 PDs. They don't make offenses pay at all for throwing between the numbers downfield.

Considering how often the DL gets pressure, those guys should be piling up a lot more stats than they have. The eyeball test suggests that they're late to the party, but also that they're not taking the right angles.

Saw one play a couple days ago from the DEN game that should've been an INT for Reid, but he takes a bad angle like he expects the ball to be underthrown by about 5 yards, but he also doesn't hustle; he kind of jogs over so he's short and he's late. Resulted in a big 3rd down conversion that never should've happened. you watch that play, and you have to think, "HB, even having lost a step, makes that INT."

As much as I like him, I think Bolton hurts them against the pass playing zone. He's better but he just isn't the physical freak of a guy like Fred Warner or whoever.

He lets them do some much because he's just an insane freak in there.

Yeah...it probably would have been a bad idea to give Mathieu another contract (although he wanted to stay badly so he may have accepted a big discount), but they could use him right now.

Even in his past-his-prime state, he's having a better season than both our Ss combined. More tackles (64), a FR, 2 INTs, 5 PDs, even a run stuff for a loss.

Too bad KC has such a problem with "bad tweets," or whatever.

Sidenote: Thornhill was a significantly better S with HB last season than he's been this season with Reid. Just saying.

Post note: and I’m not saying that we should’ve kept honey badger at any cost, just saying Reid was not going to be as effective.

It's good enough. The suggestion to fire Spags is stupid and it's an idea that's caught on with some of the fans the last few weeks

Mathieu sucks

if that's true, what does that say about our safeties? Super suck?

The issue with Mathieu was specifically that he didn't want to take a discount to stay.

I ****ing hate spags. You guys can shit on me and tell me I'm stupid whatever but the dude just plain sucks. He is at Sutton's level to me now

I'd take Reid over Mathieu

We have alot of dumb posters on here it's no surprise some wish we kept Mathieu:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Saints/comm...m_source=share

A reactive Reddit post made months ago. Wow, you really shut that argument down. LMAO

I'm just going to say one last thing here, and then I'm probably never coming back to this thread again.

If you think there's another defensive coordinator out there that would be doing a better job with 3 rookie corners, a rookie 3rd safety, a rookie SSLB, a rookie DE, a front four that does not get consistent pressure on the QB-if you really think that somehow a different name at the top of the menu makes a big difference with all of that going on-

You're stupid.

So basically you're saying that Spags is as good as any coordinator or future coordinator in the NFL.

Are you Steve's nephew or something? You are taking this kind of personal it seems like. Can you think of any way right now to improve this defense this season. Get beyond that there is no quality edge rusher. We've heard it over and over. You have to improve now. What do you do with what you have because what is getting put out there isn't working.

I don't have any names. But I don't think you have any answers on how to improve the defense now other than bang your head against the wall in the same manner that has been happening. Anyway, I'd like to see a DC that runs something similar to Dan Quinn. More stunting less blitzing, more disguising of coverages. I think that type of defensive scheme would be a improvement over the one we see now.

How’s that shit smell ?

Again, is he part of the reason we have the front four we have now? Are they here because they fit his "type"? If so, then yes he does share part of the blame.