If this is day 4 of camp

Chris Jones fine total = $200,000 and counting

Good morning.

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Nate Taylor talked about this on a pod, I kinda think it's overblown a bit, but what does the rest of the defense think if Jones can do what he does and still not get paid?

Do they start thinking "no chance I get paid here"?

On the flip side, the Chiefs other two superstars have clearly left money on the table to give the team more wiggle room. Our superstar WR wouldn't do that, so they traded him.

How could the team continue say to the other players essentially, "If you want to stay on this perennial Superbowl team, you're going to have to give some hometown discount," if they break the bank for Jones?

I mean the fines are irrelevant, IMO. If he signs an extension, those will all get waived. I don't mind if he sits out a week or two of TC. He's proven himself to not be some fat POS who just sits around doing nothing.

Plus it gives Bolton a chance to establish himself as one of the D leaders

It's obvious they aren't going to

I can't speak for them, but I think it's clear that it's a cap controlled league and they're on a team with a player so good he eats up like $48m in cap space or something.

If a second player wants to come in at $30m, it's going to be tough for the team. So the team will either bite the bullet and figure it out, or they're going to trade him off to a team that will.

The message as always in the NFL: play well and you will get paid. Just maybe not by the team you played well for.

Yeah I think I agree with that Direckshun

He is under contract so the fines CANNOT be waived.

I would have took the trade before the draft but not sold on the idea of a trade now - unless it was for a haul better than what we got for Tyreek.

I know none of us want to do this, but............

Say the Bears, who have the most cap space in the NFL, call us up.

They offer us a deal.

Bears get:

• DT Chris Jones

Chiefs get:

• the lower 2024 1st round pick (Bears control their own pick and Carolina's)
• DT Gervon Dexter
• 2024 3rd round pick
• 2025 5th round pick

That's about in line with what the Dolphins gave up for Tyreek. The 1st round pick will be higher, Dexter is an actual player rather than a hypothetical 2nd round pick that the Dolphins gave us, and a 3rd + a future 5th = the Dolphins' two fourths. Dolphins gave us an additional 6th that I'm not including here.

Who takes the deal?

I know none of us want to do this, but............

Say the Bears, who have the most cap space in the NFL, call us up.

They offer us a deal.

Bears get:

• DT Chris Jones

Chiefs get:

• the lower 2024 1st round pick (Bears control their own pick and Carolina's)
• DT Gervon Dexter
• 2024 3rd round pick
• 2025 5th round pick

That's about in line with what the Dolphins gave up for Tyreek. The 1st round pick will be higher, Dexter is an actual player rather than a hypothetical 2nd round pick that the Dolphins gave us, and a 3rd + a future 5th = the Dolphins' two fourths. Dolphins gave us an additional 6th that I'm not including here.

Who takes the deal?

I'm not doing the trade now. You have no clue what your'e really trading for draft pick wise.

If you wanted to trade it was before the draft. Now you ride it out and tag and trade.

Yep, losing Jones will impact the Chiefs more than anyone other than Mahomes/Kelce/Reid leaving. I'm sure Veach knows this. We can afford to pay one other player at the top rate other than Mahomes and still not enter cap hell.

Somebody more in the know than me might need to clarify, but I'm pretty sure the most recent CBA established that the fines cannot be waived or paid off by the team as part of the deal. So he's racking up $50k a day. He'll be back pretty soon, one way or another.

The Chiefs paid Chris Jones a life changing contract already. These players know what we know: only a select few that aren't elite QB's get a huge 3rd contract.

How many players that aren't elite QB's get a blockbuster 3rd contract with that much? Trent Williams, Von Miller, Aaron Donald...and?

It's not common

Thing is, Chris Jones can make an argument that he's in that group, no?

That's the type of trade it would have to be right now. I don't know that you could convince KC to make this type of move, since Dexter is completely unproven at the NFL level.

Carolina is a team I could also see making sense here, if they would be willing to move Derrick Brown AND KC felt like he was a good enough centerpiece to get back.

Brown isn't Jones, obviously, but he's established at least a solid level of play.

It's just so complicated for the teams making the deal, I don't see how it gets done. They have to have the cap space, and the ability to send something valuable at DT back to KC, and have picks likely to be worthy of it.

I'd think they end up around 28 mil? That get it done?

I had pretty much this exact scenario typed up a time or two, but decided not to hit submit. If we are indeed "far apart", and there is no possible solution in sight, I might even make the call and not wait for the Bears to call. Dexter was on the list in the Draft Form Thread on Prospect the Chiefs met with before the draft, but went 2 picks in front of Rice.

I'd take that deal, and then I'd pay whatever it took to move up for Harrison II. PM2 to MH2 could be an all time duo just in time for Kelce to downshift.

Trading him right now, takes the Chiefs out of Super Bowl contention with what it would do to the DT spot.

He'll play here this year. It's next year that you make a move.

I agree he will play here this year, but bullshit it takes them out of contention. If Jones gets injured again, you're saying the Chiefs can't win the super bowl?

And getting Dexter in the deal that makes me okay with doing it now. You clear 21M in cap space and already have an influx of talent to lighten the load.

Whenever Jones leaves, you can't try to replace him. You have to replace his production.

Yes, I think taking a DPOY candidate off the defense, in the current AFC landscape, makes them non superbowl contenders. Pat and the offense may go nuclear and win a playoff game or two I supposed, but they can't win the SB with the defense minus Jones.

Had they done it pre draft and FA, sure, they could have filled some spots.

Not now.

I'm not trying to be DD here. But yeah, the Chiefs needed CJ to play well last year and got thru the playoffs and SB.

I don't think it's groundbreaking to say the Chiefs would be worse without one of the 10 best football players currently in the league.

I hear you. But I also think they'll (Chiefs) be better with Mahomes on 2 good feet.

The Chiefs had 2 guys outside of Chris Jones on the DL capable of getting 7 or more sacks: Mike Danna and George Karlaftis.

I think Omenihu is another one and FAU will get at least 5. So this year instead of 2 it's 3, maybe 4 depending on how FAU adjusts to the pro game.

Say what you want but last years DL did not have good depth. Frank was...Frank, Karlaftis was a rookie figuring shit out and Dunlap was a nice reserve role player but not really an impact guy.

If you take Jones away from that group, it's gonna hurt those guys as well.

I'm not even against potentially trading him. History shows 3rd contracts for defensive guys can be dicey.

It's the timing. It's to late to do it this year for multiple reasons. Look at the Raiders and Khalil Mack a few years ago. You don't know for sure what you're even getting back.

They could win the SB without him, the offense would have to continue to be elite and you're talking about Omenihu playing a lot of DT and trying to salvage at late DT sign like Shelby Harris.

You'd need the 2018 offense to pull that off.

This defense even without Jones is better than that defense.

The Chiefs are a potential top 10 defense this year, 1 player would not drop them to like 28th, especially if Gervon Dexter came back because there's a lot of upside there.

Yes, rookie 2nd round DT's typically really take off as rookies.

They could get thru the year, probably win the west and make the playoffs.

They aren't gonna go thru the playoffs with no Jones against who they'll have to beat with the current DL they'd have without him.

I at first thought this was just a way of getting more Chiefs stories in the media but now I think it is a serious difference between what Chiefs can pay and what Chris Jones wants.

New contract or not, Chris Jones will play this year. He will never make up that $19M money if he sits out the season.

We'd be insane not to take that deal if Chris is holding firm to $31m a year...

As I said in my other posts, I make the Trade, but I don't think Jones would bring a 1st with his Salary demands and age. I think the Chiefs have more leverage than many think. I think we end up signing him for $27-28 mil, for 4 years with a 5th year option of $34-36 to push the average up and we guarantee about $72 mil.

You're overrating Jones a bit as a player...the only player not being here that would ruin us is Mahomes.

What? It would be tougher, but we won a SB with Niemann, Sorenson, Hitchens and Raglund... I could go further with that defense as well.

Day 5 of camp. First day of pads.

Chris Jones running fine total (50k * 5 days) = $250,000

quarter million dollars and counting

what a ****ing waste of money

Well you have to ask, is $25MM-$26MM per year not "getting paid"?

Yea that's hyperbole on O's part. Jones is definitely an impact player but he isn't the entire lynch pin to us being a SB contender or not.

With Chris Jones in the middle of the defense.

Losing an all pro Defensive player of the year candidate is gonna make you a worse team. I don't know how this is really a thing we're discussing.

Mahomes, Kelce and Jones are the 3 guys we need to be going full tilt when it comes January.

This isn't an argument anyone is making though, so let's avoid the false equivalency.

There is a massive difference between saying we can't compete without Chris Jones and saying that we can still compete without him on the roster and that he isn't as important as Mahomes.

Nobody here thinks that we are the same team or better without Chris Jones.

However, he is not the lynchpin of the team. That would be Pat.

Valid point, However essentially everywhere else on the defense is better now than it was then, hence making progress in the aggregate.

In a salary cap league there is always going to be a trade off. Further any GM is going to have to be careful not to pay a guy based on what he has done but rather what you think he will do during the life of the contract. Paying jones big money for a couple years maybe worth it, but paying him for 4-5 years is a gamble.

Problem is, let’s say hypothetically they let Jones play out his contract and walk next year. You can tag and trade, but he’s taking up most of the salary cap until he is traded and it hurts your ability to sign other free agents.

You can let him walk but then the roster is almost completely void of talent at DT and you don’t have any additional picks to help address the position. Left tackle is very likely your top need (again) so can you really use your 1st at DT when QB1s blind spot protection is in question again? You’d have to hope 1-2 of Leonard Williams, Christian Wilkins, or DJ Reader are available as the top FA options on the market outside of Jones. Of course they’ll all likely command large contracts, so are they that much lower than Jones that it’s worth it to not just extend Jones?

If we're a worse team, we aren't going to be able to compete in the current AFC field with what we have to offer on the DL. There's alot of talent there sure, but you take away the cornerstone of the defense and they can't get the stops they need.

Oh I completely agree, I just hate the false equivalencies being presented. He's NOT Mahomes, and no one is saying that he's not an important player. What is being suggested that if next year is a tag and trade of CJ95, that Veach probably has a plan in place to address this and come out looking decent. You don't build dynasties by overpaying players and creating a very Top heavy pay structure on your roster.

That is part of the problem, however, you can extend Thuney possibly, drop MVS, restructure Mahomes, etc. It's difficult, but not completely handcuffing our ability to manuever. Also, in regards to contract size, barring they create what is in essence a dummy year on the contract, the amount is high enough that I think you can possibly make it up in the aggregate amongst defensive positions. Although we possibly disagree on this one, this is actually a really good argument that does hold some weight in thought, and is a very good point that not many people have brought up or think about.

I don't think anyone is advocating trading him at this exact moment, I think people are suggesting a tag and trade next year instead, which would give Veach time to address the position group.

If Veach can completely overhaul our OLine in 1 offseason, I have every confidence that he would have a plan to address the defensive line.

Losing a player like him would be unfortunate obviously, however, losing one player will not drop our defense from 16th in points and 11th in Yards to 28th in both, especially with the recovered assets (cap and picks) that will probably be used on defensive players.

They all help each other, but there are 10 more players out there defending every play, and some of them are pretty damn talented.

Oh, yeah, if they wanna tag and trade him next year, sure. We've got FA and the draft to move and shake and do some things.

But you absolutely can't do it right now.

Well we're waiting

If they're set on tag and trade, then do it next February, find a trade partner at the combine and trade him before FA starts.

Completely agree. If that happened right now, barring you are getting a high end DLineman in return as part of the package (which begs the question why the trade is happening in the first place), then we are in a bad spot for the year.

That being said, Jones sitting out the year doesn't help him getting a new contract next year, so I doubt he'll take the Leveon Bell route.

If it looks like this is the eventuality, you have a whole year to get feelers for returns, etc.

Did Chris Jones change his contract demands last minute to want closer to Aaron Donald’s contract?

I am asking because the Chiefs were publicly indicating they thought they were close to getting a deal done with him before training camp.

If Chris Jones was asking all along to be a close second to Aaron Donald’s contract number… then the Chiefs surprise that he is holding out over not getting that contract is interesting.

Unless they thought his choice of a contract protest would be a hold in rather than a hold out?

You have zero idea how good this defense will be this year, with or without Jones. Obviously he makes the defense much better but you are very much blowing this thing out of proportion.

There is also a difference in knowing a guy isn't going to be there and being able to plan it and a guy suddenly dropping out of the defense do to injury or something midway through the season.

In your mind, every AFC contender not named KC is going to be just as good or better than last year, no drop off possible. We all get it.

Ok Chris, you've made your point, Burt is gonna take care of you.
Pads go on today. Do yourself a favor and take the weekend, think the offer over then sign on the dotted line please. History is not kind to linemen who hold out of camp, knees get blown out, PECS get torn.

Everyone points to the Bengals game. Yes Chris had an amazing game, but everyone helped. Danna played well, Frank played well, Karlaftis played well for the most part, Spags created nice designs (Willie Gay sack).

"We don't win that game without Chris". Sure but the offense was seriously hampered. Mahomes couldn't move and we lost Toney, Juju and Watson. He basically had Kemp and rookie Skyy out there at WR. The offense was injured and it showed.

Despite that Mahomes still balled with MVS. But yes if we had one of Juju or Toney and Mahomes isn't hurt, we blow them out to the ****ing water. We were on pace too until Mahomes weird fumble.

And keep in mind that Jones and others dominated a backup Bengals OL. Their starting tackles and G were all out.

Chris didn't really do anything in the SB either. Bottom line this team runs on Mahomes, Andy and Kelce. It's always been this way.

The offensive teams usually translate year to year, so yeah.

The Chiefs defense would likely drop off without Chris Jones at this point.

The best DT in the game drawing double and triple teams every snap has nothing to do with those guys playing well. Noted.

Exaggerate much?

I mean, no. He's been Aaron Donalds equal the last couple years, last year specifically.

The Chiefs also played against a backup OL. Jonah Williams, La'el Collins and Alex Cappa all out and Ted Karras was fighting a knee injury.

It was basically SB55 for them.

And?

This definitely makes the next couple of years alot easier contractually, we don't really have to worry about signing any defensive players to extensions.

The year that Aaron Donald was injured for over a third of the year?

Chris Jones has 2 double digit sack seasons in 7 seasons.

Aaron Donald has 6 in 9 seasons (2 of those less than 10 being in his first 3 seasons, the other being last year when he was hurt)

These are not the same player.

Even if Jones was better last year, Jones was never as good as prime Aaron Donald.

I'll probably get crucified on here for this opinion, but Chris Jones and 3x DPOY Aaron Donald do not have the same impact on their relative teams. Aaron Donald was a substantially better DT than Chris Jones when he got his contract, hence why he basically made 50% more than the 2nd highest paid at the position when he extended (31.6M AAV vs. 20M AAV)

This is literally why everyone says Jones is the best DT in the game not named Aaron Donald, and this is why I cannot willingly justify paying them basically the same in my mind. Because Aaron Donald when he received that contract was not just the best DT in football, he was one of the greatest defensive players of all time.

The man literally has the same number of DPOY awards as Lawrence Taylor did. To act as if Jones is equal is short-sighted, and only looking at a one year dataset.

Yes Donald dropped off last year because of injury, and that contract looked bad because of it, but it still doesn't change how good he was when he got that contract.

Chiefs have about $50m in cap space next year at this time, and that's prior to what I expect will be a Joe Thuney extension.

If you tag Jones, you still have lots of room to party in free agency. You also get a half dozen teams willing to pay Tyreek Hill-sized deals to us for him.

I don't know the arguments that are going on behind closed doors, but the Chiefs have got to be considering that at this time.

Can anyone confirm the tag amount? Heard $30 and have heard $20'ish from even "experts" on tv.

Also I think Veach has to at least put Jones availability out there now for teams to bid on. Never know if a team will come in with a crazy offer.

I'd look at Washington or Lions IMO.

I just saw someone getting a police escort to Missouri Western State University.

IT MIGHT BE HAPPENING!!!!

That’s a lie

I strongly agree. If CJ is stuck at 30 this makes way more sense whether you tag or tag and trade.

You really gonna just keep continually exaggerating everyone's stance endlessly?

I've already said to pay the man, but if we end up having to do something different after this season, for some odd reason I trust Veach and company to get it right. I dunno maybe its just me.

Its not like they stopped trying to draft defensive impact players since Jones became an All Pro.

ROFL

well... you're wrong.

I would say Kelce hurts super bowl chances far more than Jones. The offense is designed around Kelce.

Now, if we have three of the WRs emerge as legit high end players (skyy, james, rice, toney or Ross), then that changes things quite a bit.