Again, if we're giving Skyy drops on those.......I dunno what we're doing here. 2 of them are really tough catches (the first didn't need to be if Pat threw it when he was actually open) and the slant in the redzone was behind him.

He definitely played well.

Makes me really want one of those top 5 DE's.

Let's just split the difference and say he had zero catches in a game where he played more snaps than any other WR and we desperately needed him to step up.

I agree. Definitely gotta be better.

I'm not saying he was good enough. It's gotta be better. I'm by no means a big Skyy fan either, but I just hate shitting on a guy when it may not really have been his issue.

I was wondering about this. You can't tell without the all 22.

Was anyone else at the game? Was he getting separation or what?

I dunno, but quite a few people on ChiefsPlanet.com say that he wasn't going open. It's quite a reliable source of information, so I'd trust what they say.

Mahomes was burned for (I believe two picks) last year on account of Moore running the route incorrectly, so I always wonder if that's in the back of his head?

From section 211 it looked like there were guys getting open.

Toney averaged 3 yards of separation on his targets. So....catch the ball and you're fine.

Yes, but quite a few other people are saying he wasn't so I dunno.

DJ what did you see?

Yeah I alluded to this a couple of posts down, but I don't think Mahomes trusts him to be in the right place, or run the route correctly and he's been burned by it before.

Toney looked like we expected Toney to look until the ball got there.

He was a handful out there.

I'm actually fairly confident that Toney will recover from all this and be fine. I may try some trade lows out there in fantasy.

But Moore? I just see no reason for optimism.

Like I said somewhere in this thread last season, Moore ****ing up a simple Dig route was a HUGE red flag to me.

I mean that's high school football stuff. Plant and run at 90. There's not an easier route in the world to run.

And he was lazy. Didn't plant the foot hard and then drifted back off his cut to let the DB cut right under him and pick it off. It's just an awful, awful interception. Then he jakes a blocking assignment either that game or the next one.

The effort is inconsistent and the execution damn sure appears to be as well. This isn't even HARD stuff like sight adjustments. This is easy, knew it in high school, fundamental stuff.

And 10 games into the season he was messing them up last year. People wanted to make excuses for it but there IS no excuse for that. That isn't something you need a season in the system to know how to do.

Some of the spacing and timing was just off, which I'm sure bled into Pat's distrust. I'm thinking some of that could be from Kelce and moving guys around.

I don’t like to use the word “efficient.” But I think the new mahomes mentality is to not waste downs. A drop is an obvious example. But we’ve also seen games where mahomes missed a few deep shots then pulled back, even though the defense was giving it to us.

If we don’t execute the basics mahomes loses confidence that we can claw 10 yards in 2 tries. And so instead of taking more risks he instead puts it on himself to manufacture opportunities. That’s why you see him bail on pockets before he goes through progressions. Or abandon short stuff he fears will result in a drop or a loss. It’s also why he may be reluctant to waste downs on a deep miss. Even if the defense gives us deep shots I don’t know mahomes attacks it as long as we don’t clean up the basics.

Kelce helps a lot but not entirely. We saw this same body language in our year of dropsies. Mahomes doesn’t sulk over tough defense or bad throws. What sets him off is when his guys don’t execute what they’re supposed to.

He was a RB in HS. Has only played 3 seasons as a WR in a small conference school.

He said in an interview he thought he was going to be a RB in college but found out when he got there that they had him as wr.

Big jump for the kid.

Hopefully, he’s able to figure it out and start making plays and moving sticks.

I'm not necessarily a Moore believer, but his snap count indicates the staff has confidence in him. The lack of targets is concerning, but that's not 100% his fault.

I hope last week was a fluke with a disjointed offense caused by the Kelce injury and the Lions playing way more zone than anyone expected (likely due to the Kelce injury).

The concern should be Mahomes has no trust in him, to have the most WR snaps and garner a 7.7% share is absolutely awful.

So swap him and ceh. Probably won't change much :)

Yeah, that's concerning for a second-round pick in his second year. That's not great. He's already shown he can't be a punt returner.

But, I think there's a chance, given his very high snap count, that we see more targets in a different game against a different opponent (with defenses having to account for Kelce).

There's also a chance he's just a guy, or worse. We will know more after next week.

I get it he's an NFL WR, but every single one of those "drops" would have been incredible catches. He dropped a slant that was fired in the opposite direction of where he's going. The other 2 were really high passes.

If we're gonna play "You're in the NFL, so you are required to make tough catches", then we have to be fair and say the same thing about our QB. He's the greatest player/QB to ever play this game, so he should be putting the ball where it needs to be.

It's ok to admit that Patrick was a little off for some reason. It's a rare occurrence, but he's not above criticism.

Which is...y'know....why he was more of a 4th round pick than a 2nd rounder.

But I digress....

One of those drops, Gardner made a hell of a play knocking the ball out.

Doesn't absolve him for the other drops, but that one he actually caught, then Gardner pulled off a great PD. I can't blame Skyy for that one.

Mvs is open with no safety over the too

Mahomes hesitates because he doesn't trust Skyy Moore.

Yep that is on Pat. That was a TD to MVS but looks like his first read was Skyy.

agree personally i think he is a major bust, another swing and miss on 2nd round WR.

There's 3 guys open on that play. If that's what we're gonna get when he doesn't "trust" a guy, you can't run a WR out there.

Was it? Hard to tell. Kinda looked like his progression started w/ TE (83), then RB to the flat... i.e. working right side of field, to left.

He could have hit Skyy on the in route much earlier for a wide open completion, or gone deep to MVS for a likely score.

Seems like the progression was off. If so, that is good news, as that's on Mahomes. I trust 100% that he will see that on film study and make the proper adjustments.

And that is another point..

If Mahomes is more Rodgers than Brady in that he wants to have trust in his group before just feeling like he can comfortably chuck it out there to them...then we can't just cycle in young guys all the time.

I think you are right, he quickly looked at Gray but he was not open, either was Mckinnon

Or how about....Mahomes wanted MVS on that play and saw him come open but then had to pull it down because of a rusher coming right at his ****ing face. By that time, the Moore route was dead.

He was too busy watching Hutchinson that he missed Skyy and MVS

I think Mahomes missed some reads last night because he's just not used to playing without Kelce. When Kelce is your number 1, and virtually of your reads are based on how a defense is guarding against him, then it's quite an adjustment to just not have him available for an entire game.

And his injury happened very close to gameday, which made it more difficult.

Kelce or no Kelce, Mahomes and this offense will look better with more time to prepare, knowing ahead of time whether or not they will have their number one weapon.

You could even see him wind up to throw to MVS and then he pulled it down because of the free rusher.....just sayin'.

Take this with whatever grain of salt you like:

Skyy is wide open at his break, but Pat hesitated. I think he didn't pull the trigger because he expected Skyy to sit down there, but instead Skyy keeps running, making it a tougher throw.

Then, he looks back to his right, and (I think) he sees MVS about the time Scantling crosses the right hashes, but at the same time he gets a defender running right in his face so he has to scramble, so he doesn't pull the trigger.

Then he comes back to Skyy, and (I think) Moore should've sat down right at the tip of the arrowhead logo. At least stayed between the hashes.

But instead, keeps running across the field (towards coverage), at which point Pat decides to take a shot because he's out of time. But as he's running forward, making it a much tougher throw which ends up being a tad high/right.

Skyy should've still come down with it, but we're talking about his route running, not whether he caught the ball for this exercise.

My opinion is that Skyy still doesn't have much feel for how to play zone coverage, because he didn't understand when to settle/sit down, twice on that play.

For a guy that's supposed to take over JuJu's role, this is concerning.

Now, all of that is speculative, so feel free to shoot holes in it. I'd like to see what others think happened.

He had already double clutched the MOore route before Hutch is even in any spot to be noticed.

Mahomes gaffed one. It happens.

This was 3 seconds after the ball was snapped if you go by the time in the video. It was like 4-5 seconds before Hutch comes around.

Still images are absolutely terrible for this kind of assessment.

Well for one, it looks like the Lions gaked the the coverage, I dont' know if it's supposed to be rolled into cover 2, man under or what.

Pat's looking to his left. Doesn't even see MVS in that pic.

Hutch has no impact on what should have happened there by the time he stunts. Ball shoulda been out.

Like I said, he likely wanted MVS instead...because well....that's probably a tuddy if he gets the ball off.

I'm not buying the "He doesn't trust him enough to throw him the ball when he's wide open" angle that y'all are trying to sell.

He likely saw Skyy, also saw MVS coming wide the **** open for a huge gain, elected for the big play and then pulled it down when the defender leaked inside.

Knowing Mahomes, that's the far more likely correct answer.

Look at his head. He never comes back to MVS until after the pump fake.

I don't know about the "trust" stuff, but the guys wide open for a first down there. The ball needs to come out assuming the progression appears what it appears to be.

Based on the route concepts there, I would guess MVS is supposed to pull said safety opening the back side dig.

As it happened.

I am wondering if they prepared all TC for man and the Lions went all zone plus with Kelce out really screwed things up.

With that being said, watching all the games yesterday only the Fins-Chargers offenses looked good. The rest of the league, offenses were pretty poor overall.

Well the Lions played the most man in the league last year and came out in this game and promptly played like 92% zone.

...and their (Fins-Chargers) Ds looked atrocious.

And again, that's a real quality of competition concern - he just wasn't asked to 'feel' zones because not a lot of teams at that level play advanced zone coverages.

Whereas Rice seems to feel all that much better. And Toney is still very good at it; made a couple of nice decisions to create a really easy throw - he just duffed them.

And I don't know that a light will just come on for Skyy. That's disconcerting as to what it will mean for him this season.

I don't think that's really man though. I'm not really sure what they're doing there.

Toney had one where he didn't sit down in the MOF and drifted and it let the LB'er break it up.

He's been in the system long enough now that if the light were going to come on, it would have already IMO. I don't think we're going to see some sudden understanding hit him. That doesn't mean he can't get better or be more useful than he has been. I just think we are probable close to his apex. I hope I'm wrong.

Yeah, when I first watched Skyy's college clips before the draft, I never noticed he was playing almost exclusively against man. Just never clicked in my head. I was too busy watchng his feet.

And we've seen guys come into the NFL without a feel for zone; it usually takes time for them to develop that. Sometimes several seasons. Or some don't, ever.

My hope is that he can figure it out, this season.

But, and this is purely my opinion, he didn't show much growth in that area the other night. Which will be a big problem this season if he hasn't made any progress playing zone since last year, considering how much we apparently were planning on leaning on him in 2023.

Well, this is why the "it takes WR's time in Andy's system" stuff never stuck. Guys gotta play to figure this stuff out.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">On the first possession of the game, a switch release gets Skyy some space on a fade. A window for the backshoulder is there<br><br>15 thinks about it, then comes back to Jet on the checkdown <a href="https://t.co/BjpiqJmLd3">pic.twitter.com/BjpiqJmLd3</a></p>&mdash; Ron Kopp Jr. (@Ron_Kopp) <a href="https://twitter.com/Ron_Kopp/status/1701328581450743871?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 11, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>


Again, that's open fellas.

Yikes. That first one is WIDE the **** open.

So was McKinnon, with a better matchup. The LB made a phenomenal play, else that's a big gainer.

Skyy broke wide open as Mahomes switched targets. When he saw the MLB look like a blitz, then have to turn & trail Jet, it became a no-brainer. They also had the two receivers on the left side of the formation clear the area for McKinnon. If not for that impressive recovery by the LB, Jet was gone. Probably a designed play to go to the RB.

McKinnon is an afterthough check down after a chip block there. That's not designed.

That was not a chip down block. That was a delayed route... and it was cleared by the left side receivers. Watch the video... looks like they executed it nearly to perfection. Mahomes had to go all arm as he had pressure coming down and could not step into the pass.

One goes for 30 and one goes for 8.

God damn guys. This isn't that hard. Throw the ****ing ball Pat.

That 'window' for a back-shoulder pass is going to get impossibly small. The DB isn't out of phase with him and that's a really easy play to cut under. Moreover, Moore is small. His catch radius on a back-shoulder play is tiny.

I don't blame Mahomes for not throwing that ball, it's as likely to get picked/deflected as it is to get caught. Coming off that read is the right play.

If that's the kind of 'open' the "He was open 8 times!" crowd is seeing, that ain't a great argument.

The open I saw was typically on quick hitters and clear outs. 3-5 yard gains. But on a couple of them they'd have been first downs so I wish he'd have pulled the trigger there.

So, in the 2nd clip:

Yeah, Skyy gets open.

However, there's two issues that probably canceled Skyy as far as Pat was concerned.

One, that's not an easy throw. Pat would have to lay that between Skyy and the DB, who's just a couple yards away. if he doesn't' dot Skyy, the DB could make a play.


Two, in the moment that he could pull the trigger, his OL is getting pushed right back into him. He can't step into the pass. So he's going to lose a little in terms of both accuracy and velocity. Or the DL might get a hand on it. I think that's why Pat doesn't throw that ball to Skyy there.

Again, just my opinion, but that's what it looks like to me.

The slot guy is running the dig to hold the safety. Pat is looking right the entire time and can't step into the pass because he held the ball to long and pressure got there.

Pause it at the 4 second mark in the clip. They switch it, his defender isn't in phase and is facing in with, 3 yards in between.

I mean.....am I taking crazy pills?

He'd let it go when Skyy is at the 25, ball gets there at the 31. He's running full speed at a defender with his feet stopped.......guys stop grading this on the curve.

Pause the clip when Skyy steps on the 25 (a titch past :03 sec). Where exactly should Pat throw that ball? Take that NFL logo on the 25 and move it up to use as a landmark for us. Minding the fact that at about :04.5 seconds our OL is getting pushed into Pat's feet.

According to Simms our WR's had trouble separating. Specifically pointed at Moore. Says Toney is the only one that could create separation lined up 1v1.

Toney off his game + No Kelce = deep doodoo as per Simms.

Safety dropped to help w/ Skyy, so Mahomes had the dig open as well (if he had time to throw) :D

Dude he had like 2 yards of horizontal separation which the DB could easily close while the ball was in the air. Mahomes would have to back shoulder that throw to an undersized WR for that to not get tipped or picked.

Yeah....that.

A little bit, yeah.

Moore doesn't pull away at all and the DB turns right with him (because again, athletically limited). That throw doesn't have to simply be good - it has to be perfect. It also has to be anticipated and thrown in about a .1 of a second window. And then maybe he brings it in; because he's still gonna be trying to toe-tap that at the sideline as the DB comes through him.

Nah, I don't let it go. Not to that WR.

Because again, small, lousy lateral agility, lousy vertical. He's quick for 4 strides and then runs out of dick. I don't understand what the team saw in him at all.

I CERTAINLY don't understand what the 'best WR in the draft' crowd thought THEY saw...

Knowing you? Probably.

What I've been saying for a while now, sheesh!


Actually, last season DJ tipped us to the fact that Skyy doesn't show much burst. He's just not going to out-accelerate too many people to the ball. I have no idea how that's possible when you run 4.4sec, but the tape doesn't lie.

Rice, I don't know yet. But he showed some nice feel for zone, so that's positive.

Ross, doesn't separate vs. man against quality DBs.



Bottom line, vs. good defenses, the WRs will go as Toney goes.

I’ve only seen a couple plays on 40+ drop backs but many have claimed Pat was missing open guys all night. If true, that actually makes me feel better. We’ve been here before with Mahomes and he’s always corrected the issue.

Ive only made it through about 1.5 qtrs of All-22.

I didn't see much there. Mahomes seemed to have been making salad out of shit for the most part.

But to be fair, i felt like he was doing a lot of that last year too. If you watched a lot of the All-22 from last season, guys weren't exactly running free last year either.

Kelce will be the great equalizer. I think.

I'll have to rewatch, but i swear, on that last Toney drop, i thought Toney had done an excellent job of adjusting his route to the zone.

Toney seems to be the guy who's both dynamic enough and intelligent enough to be a legitimate threat every week.

But of course, it still boils down to if he can stay healthy.

He's got teh whole sideline and the defender has his head turned to find Moore.

You guys are wrong here.

Yeah, dude was open alot. I'm not worried about him.

Nah.

I mean, we're rarely wrong. Especially when its both of us seeing the same thing.

I think you'll just need to re-adjust your opinion my guy.