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-   -   Football Joe "Cool" and being elite? Yeah, no. (https://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=347300)

Bengal Billy 02-02-2023 11:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Detoxing (Post 16784272)
And as much credit as people wanna give him for being this Brady like savant, Spags made him look like a rookie.

What was that i heard, ZERO sustained drives over 8 plays against us on Sunday? 2 Ints and what easily coulda been 2 more.

Burrow threw a ball right at McDuffie who barely even moved off his spot in a base cover 2.

Dude's game basically amounted to two prayer balls in which his receivers made excellent plays. Plays that most receivers won't make.

So no, spare me this crap about him being intellectually elite.
^^ I have to agree with this as I believe Burrow still has some learning to do diagnosing and checking into different calls at times (he is very good for only playing in the league 2 full seasons but still has more to do).

- Late in the 4th, Bengals had a 2nd & 3 and then a 3rd & 3. Burrow throws two straight deep balls with lower percentage chances of success. Why do that and not check into something for you know, moving the chains?

- on Bengals last 3rd and 8, Spags brilliantly had Chris Jones on the outside out wide with the rest of the line skewed right which forced Hakeem Adeniji to be on an island against Jones. Burrow needs to see that and move a player to help chip or check into a different play to account for that but he didn't. Instead, Jones blows right by Adeniji and plants Burrow into the dirt again for the punt.

Burrow is very, very good but still has some improvement to be made.

The elite debate, I think it's relative to what you're comparing it to. If you are just going by who's elite in the current game, then yes he belongs.

If you're talking all-time or over different eras, then no, not yet at least.

For current era QBs, I would say yes elite as it's
1. Mahomes
2a/2b Allen & Burrow

All-time,, no

Chris Meck 02-02-2023 11:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Detoxing (Post 16785180)
Judging an individual player's talent by using team metrics just doesn't make any sense.
Nothing that guy says makes sense.

penguinz 02-02-2023 11:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Detoxing (Post 16785180)
Judging an individual player's talent by using team metrics just doesn't make any sense.
Herbert specifically has done nothing to help his team in a must win game. he has failed every time.

tredadda 02-02-2023 12:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Detoxing (Post 16785180)
Judging an individual player's talent by using team metrics just doesn't make any sense.
To a point. No one doubts his talent, he just lacks that “it” factor that elite or even great QBs have. I have yet to see any sort of that from him.

tredadda 02-02-2023 12:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bengal Billy (Post 16785192)
^^ I have to agree with this as I believe Burrow still has some learning to do diagnosing and checking into different calls at times (he is very good for only playing in the league 2 full seasons but still has more to do).

- Late in the 4th, Bengals had a 2nd & 3 and then a 3rd & 3. Burrow throws two straight deep balls with lower percentage chances of success. Why do that and not check into something for you know, moving the chains?

- on Bengals last 3rd and 8, Spags brilliantly had Chris Jones on the outside out wide with the rest of the line skewed right which forced Hakeem Adeniji to be on an island against Jones. Burrow needs to see that and move a player to help chip or check into a different play to account for that but he didn't. Instead, Jones blows right by Adeniji and plants Burrow into the dirt again for the punt.

Burrow is very, very good but still has some improvement to be made.

The elite debate, I think it's relative to what you're comparing it to. If you are just going by who's elite in the current game, then yes he belongs.

If you're talking all-time or over different eras, then no, not yet at least.

For current era QBs, I would say yes elite as it's
1. Mahomes
2a/2b Allen & Burrow

All-time,, no
Losing Higgins and Boyd could fix that. Mahomes struggled a lot with that early in his career. He eventually started taking what the defense gave him. Losing Tyreek though was the best thing for Mahomes as it forced him to take the shorter throws and move the chains vs the "F it Tyreek down there somewhere". Burrow will need to play with less talent at the WR position to truly learn that as he can do the same thing with Chase and Higgins and Boyd.

Imon Yourside 02-02-2023 12:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by penguinz (Post 16785275)
Herbert specifically has done nothing to help his team in a must win game. he has failed every time.
The ghost of Phillip Rivers will forever haunt him.

mr. tegu 02-02-2023 12:44 PM
Joe "Cool" and being elite? Yeah, no.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 (Post 16784439)
Wait, what? Burrow has as many playoff wins in a few seasons as rivers did a long career. And more than Matt Ryan’s career. These guys were never ever considered in T1 and were lucky if they were even T2. And these guys played with loaded talent. Rivers initial supporting cast was absurdly talented.

If they played in todays game rivers would be on Herbert’s level. And Matt Ryan would be on a stafford level, maybe a little better than cousins. These guys aren’t even remotely close to burrow. Without a doubt he’s qb2 and there’s a big distance to qb3, and that’s considering that Allen has been pretty decent and productive.

I’d say it’s more than fair to say at worst he’s Brees. and that’s pretty elite.
Rivers and Ryan both had multiple regular seasons as good or better than Burrow’s two seasons yet they aren’t considered elite nor where they at the time. That’s exactly the point. You can’t just say they aren’t close to Burrow because reasons. Burrow’s regular season don’t stand above Rivers or Ryan few year stretches by any means. And I’m giving him credit for being the QB while the team wins playoff games but in those wins he has been a game manager at best given he still hasn’t led a TD drive in the fourth in his post season career.

mr. tegu 02-02-2023 12:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Meck (Post 16784394)
who said anything about that?

I said 'on a trajectory', as in they are playing in such a way as to end up hall of famers. And that's not a stretch to say.

Now, if you guys want to go full reerun and say hall of famers aren't elite, then that's your business, and you guys have fun arguing utter horseshit, but I'll just bow on out and you can have your fantasy world arguments.

And sometimes guys are 'elite' for a season, like Matt Ryan, but unable to sustain that. Sometimes guys get injured and all off, or age out, and are no longer elite, etc.

But for the last couple of seasons, there is no question that Mahomes, Burrow, and Allen have been pretty ****ing elite and to argue against that is just nonsense.

Allen played hurt, and Hurts is hurt now, but both when 100% were favorites to win MVP. Now, Hurts was elite most of one season; If he can repeat that another year or two, then you can add him into that top 5 'elite' class.

You guys are so blinded by Mahomes that you can't acknowledge greatness in others. These guys are absolutely elite, and sometimes they're going to beat us, Mahomes or no. They're great. Allen has. Burrow has. It's a fact.

I wouldn't trade our guy for anyone, but there are other guys that are also great.

This is a stupid argument and I'm out.

You said exactly what I said. Play semantics all you like but what you might do or become (trajectory is same thing) doesn’t make you elite. It shouldn’t factor at all because what you do in two years doesn’t help your team today. Is Rodgers elite right now? After all he’s going to be in the HOF.

penguinz 02-02-2023 12:59 PM
I think there may also be some confusion with elite talent vs being an elite player.

rfaulk34 02-02-2023 01:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tredadda (Post 16784868)
Is there a QB in the league that gets more love for doing so little as Sherbert? What has he done to justify being top 5?
He has a ton of arm talent. I think where he lacks is mentally. Not the ability to process, but handling stressful, important situations.

He reminds me a lot of Carson Palmer. Very introverted personalities.

tredadda 02-02-2023 01:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rfaulk34 (Post 16785422)
He has a ton of arm talent. I think where he lacks is mentally. Not the ability to process, but handling stressful, important situations.

He reminds me a lot of Carson Palmer. Very introverted personalities.
By and large this is the biggest separator between the best QBs and the good or lesser ones.

chiefzilla1501 02-02-2023 01:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. tegu (Post 16785381)
Rivers and Ryan both had multiple regular seasons as good or better than Burrow’s two seasons yet they aren’t considered elite nor where they at the time. That’s exactly the point. You can’t just say they aren’t close to Burrow because reasons. Burrow’s regular season don’t stand above Rivers or Ryan few year stretches by any means. And I’m giving him credit for being the QB while the team wins playoff games but in those wins he has been a game manager at best given he still hasn’t led a TD drive in the fourth in his post season career.
First let’s just agree Ryan is nowhere in the same class. He had an outlier Super Bowl year. Other than that he was nowhere near top tier. A lot of stat padded seasons. An above average regular season qb and unremarkable playoff qb

Rivers I can understand. But if these two were largely comparable then playoff performance creates clear separation between the two. Even in his early years when he had an elite team around him. Maybe you have questions about if burrow can carry the team on his back in these kinds of games. But it’s hard to say at this stage of his career that he finds ways to lose like Rivers did.

Rivers was barely considered even remotely in the same class as Brady, Peyton, Brees or rodgers. His lack of playoff success took him off entirely. Meanwhile I don’t think anyone would hesitate to say it’s mahomes and burrow, and maybe Allen, then everybody else.

DRM08 02-02-2023 02:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bengal Billy (Post 16785192)
^^ I have to agree with this as I believe Burrow still has some learning to do diagnosing and checking into different calls at times (he is very good for only playing in the league 2 full seasons but still has more to do).

- Late in the 4th, Bengals had a 2nd & 3 and then a 3rd & 3. Burrow throws two straight deep balls with lower percentage chances of success. Why do that and not check into something for you know, moving the chains?

- on Bengals last 3rd and 8, Spags brilliantly had Chris Jones on the outside out wide with the rest of the line skewed right which forced Hakeem Adeniji to be on an island against Jones. Burrow needs to see that and move a player to help chip or check into a different play to account for that but he didn't. Instead, Jones blows right by Adeniji and plants Burrow into the dirt again for the punt.

Burrow is very, very good but still has some improvement to be made.

The elite debate, I think it's relative to what you're comparing it to. If you are just going by who's elite in the current game, then yes he belongs.

If you're talking all-time or over different eras, then no, not yet at least.

For current era QBs, I would say yes elite as it's
1. Mahomes
2a/2b Allen & Burrow

All-time,, no
I get frustrated with Mahomes when he goes for a deep ball on 3rd & short or 3rd & medium. But I also noticed Tom Brady & Aaron Rodgers doing the same type of low percentage stuff on 3rd down this season. So I am not sure any of the young QB’s will truly grow out of that tendency.

petegz28 02-02-2023 08:55 PM
https://scontent-ord5-2.xx.fbcdn.net...Og&oe=63E1D34A

MahomesIsTheMVP 02-02-2023 10:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammock Parties (Post 16779427)
mahomes would never punt with those WR
No shit.

Chiefshrink 02-02-2023 11:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by penguinz (Post 16784773)
Herbert? He is not even close to top 5. He has never won a must win game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tredadda (Post 16784868)
Is there a QB in the league that gets more love for doing so little as Sherbert? What has he done to justify being top 5?
Having a stupid coach and OC(who btw got fired) doesn't help a young promising QB.;)

Chiefshrink 02-02-2023 11:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCChiefsFan88 (Post 16779470)
It’s a team game.
Yes it is a team game BUT I didn't realize so many on this board get so "butthurt" so easily when I point out the present score amongst the QB's. SHEESH !! And like I said, Pat will get this record turned around fairly quickly now that the Bengals are out of our heads. Just sayin !!:shrug:

penguinz 02-03-2023 12:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiefshrink (Post 16786504)
Having a stupid coach and OC(who btw got fired) doesn't help a young promising QB.;)
He just isn't a smart QB. I forget which rookie it was that picked him off at arrowhead but a remember reading an article where he talked about picking him off on almost the same exact play in college.

PAChiefsGuy 02-03-2023 12:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by penguinz (Post 16786548)
He just isn't a smart QB. I forget which rookie it was that picked him off at arrowhead but a remember reading an article where he talked about picking him off on almost the same exact play in college.
Like Burrow is the first smart QB to make a mistake. What a moron he is

mr. tegu 08-02-2023 07:06 AM
I find it funny how people hand wave away Burrow’s terrible playoff performances. For some reason everyone is afraid to say he hasn’t been clutch in the playoffs and preface every statement with “I love him he’s great” instead of just acknowledging he has been very not clutch.

https://youtu.be/ThNLDI0bo3c

Titty Meat 08-02-2023 07:37 AM
Only Mahomes is a good QB according to CP

ChiTown 08-02-2023 07:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Titty Meat (Post 17039474)
Only Mahomes is a good QB according to CP
https://media.tenor.com/MjRI-BCWZdcA...iel-greene.gif

Rain Man 08-02-2023 07:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Titty Meat (Post 17039474)
Only Mahomes is a good QB according to CP
I think the issue is that if you watch Mahomes consistently, you realize that no other quarterback is close to him. Therefore, the others all look bad in comparison.

FlaChief58 08-02-2023 07:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Titty Meat (Post 17039474)
Only Mahomes is a good QB according to CP
Well yeah, how can any other qb ever be better than perfect?

Lzen 08-02-2023 07:51 AM
I mean, it is hard to argue that Burrow and Cousins playoff stats are nearly the same. The difference is that Burrow has had his defense give him a ton of help. It really is a team sport. Nobody is saying that Burrow isn't a good QB. But one has to question what he has done in the playoffs. I didn't realize until recently that he has no 4th quarter TDs in the playoff. For a guy everybody says is one of the top 2 or 3 NFL QBs, you'd think he'd have a few of those.

Lzen 08-02-2023 07:55 AM
Just look at this graphic
 
This graphic says a lot.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ThNLDI0bo3c?clip=UgkxgbQjqMYBsJaemFlv0kReO0UOhxUdiitL&amp;clipt=EODUAxigkAU" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Jewish Rabbi 08-02-2023 07:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lzen (Post 17039489)
I mean, it is hard to argue that Burrow and Cousins playoff stats are nearly the same. The difference is that Burrow has had his defense give him a ton of help. It really is a team sport. Nobody is saying that Burrow isn't a good QB. But one has to question what he has done in the playoffs. I didn't realize until recently that he has no 4th quarter TDs in the playoff. For a guy everybody says is one of the top 2 or 3 NFL QBs, you'd think he'd have a few of those.
I'm saying Burrow isn't a good quarterback he's actually a giant pile of shit

mr. tegu 08-02-2023 08:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lzen (Post 17039489)
I mean, it is hard to argue that Burrow and Cousins playoff stats are nearly the same. The difference is that Burrow has had his defense give him a ton of help. It really is a team sport. Nobody is saying that Burrow isn't a good QB. But one has to question what he has done in the playoffs. I didn't realize until recently that he has no 4th quarter TDs in the playoff. For a guy everybody says is one of the top 2 or 3 NFL QBs, you'd think he'd have a few of those.

He straight up shrinks in the playoffs. All of his numbers go way down from his regular season numbers.

Bearcat 08-02-2023 08:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Titty Meat (Post 17039474)
Only Mahomes is a good QB according to CP
Thread title says "elite".

https://y.yarn.co/65cb594a-56fd-4ef8...df828_text.gif

Titty Meat 08-02-2023 10:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearcat (Post 17039522)
Yeah dudes on this board try to argue Brady wasn't that good LMAO Burrow has beaten Mahomes 3 times dudes elite so is Herbert & Allen. Let's quit the fake shit

Megatron96 08-02-2023 10:50 AM
Lol, are we really so insecure about Burrow that we're going to try and reduce him to Kirk Cousins' level just to protect our egos?


You can't name 5 QBs that are legitimately better than Burrow. Put another way name 5 QBs from last season you'd rather have under center for the Chiefs if Mahomes didn't exist.

Case closed.

mr. tegu 08-02-2023 10:55 AM
Joe &quot;Cool&quot; and being elite? Yeah, no.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Megatron96 (Post 17039753)
Lol, are we really so insecure about Burrow that we're going to try and reduce him to Kirk Cousins' level just to protect our egos?


You can't name 5 QBs that are legitimately better than Burrow. Put another way name 5 QBs from last season you'd rather have under center for the Chiefs if Mahomes didn't exist.

Case closed.

If Burrow doesn’t want to be compared to Cousins he should turn into him in the playoffs.

Megatron96 08-02-2023 11:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. tegu (Post 17039759)
If Burrow doesn’t want to be compared to Cousins he should turn into him in the playoffs.
ROFL

AdolfOliverBush 08-02-2023 11:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. tegu (Post 17039759)
If Burrow doesn’t want to be compared to Cousins he should turn into him in the playoffs.
If he's putting up Cousins-ish numbers in the playoffs with THAT WR corps, it's not a stretch to say he isn't as good as Cousins in the postseason.

mr. tegu 09-10-2023 02:18 PM
Still not elite despite the new contract.

Megatron96 09-10-2023 02:25 PM
Meh. It's Week 1. As I recall, CIN started slowly last year. Finished the season with 8 straight Ws?

Wouldn't close their coffin any time soon.

Molitoth 09-10-2023 02:27 PM
It's week 1.... the Benglas will be fine and in the playoffs.

Anyone over-reacting to this Bengals loss (as nice as it may be) is just the same type of person that says the Chiefs are done.

DRM08 09-10-2023 02:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Megatron96 (Post 17099868)
Meh. It's Week 1. As I recall, CIN started slowly last year. Finished the season with 8 straight Ws?

Wouldn't close their coffin any time soon.
You're correct. They also seem to struggle with Cleveland, even when Cleveland sucks. Myles Garrett seems to be the perfect guy to ruin the game for Burrow.

FringeNC 09-10-2023 02:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Megatron96 (Post 17099868)
Meh. It's Week 1. As I recall, CIN started slowly last year. Finished the season with 8 straight Ws?

Wouldn't close their coffin any time soon.
It's too early to panic, but their offensive line getting destroyed should raise some red flags. Another game or two like that, I'll be writing them off.

Megatron96 09-10-2023 02:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRM08 (Post 17099901)
You're correct. They also seem to struggle with Cleveland, even when Cleveland sucks. Myles Garrett seems to be the perfect guy to ruin the game for Burrow.


Garrett is a monster. Love watching that guy play.

You know who else they struggled with last season, BAL. Looking forward to BAL kicking their shit in.

DRM08 09-10-2023 02:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Megatron96 (Post 17099926)
Garrett is a monster. Love watching that guy play.

You know who else they struggled with last season, BAL. Looking forward to BAL kicking their shit in.
Pittsburgh is another one that seems to give Cincy a tough time. If TJ Watt is healthy, it's a similar game-wrecking situation to Myles Garrett.

Sadly in previous matchups, it seems the only time the Chiefs defense can get serious pressure on Burrow is when his entire OL is wiped out with injury.

Rainbarrel 09-10-2023 02:45 PM
Garrett Head here in Marrthetiggerville

chiefzilla1501 09-10-2023 02:46 PM
Got lots of respect for joe, great qb.

But I’d love to see them lose 3 straight so the world can see how quickly those fans will bail on their team at the slightest hint of adversity

RaidersOftheCellar 09-10-2023 03:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Molitoth (Post 17099878)
It's week 1.... the Benglas will be fine and in the playoffs.

Anyone over-reacting to this Bengals loss (as nice as it may be) is just the same type of person that says the Chiefs are done.
Losing by 1 due to a shitload of flukey drops vs getting destroyed by a mediocre team….

DRM08 09-10-2023 03:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaidersOftheCellar (Post 17099980)
Losing by 1 due to a shitload of flukey drops vs getting destroyed by a mediocre team….
And last year Cincy had some really bad losses to both Pittsburgh & Cleveland (bad teams). By the end of the season Cincy was a very tough team for anyone to beat.

Chiefshrink 09-10-2023 03:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Molitoth (Post 17099878)
It's week 1.... the Benglas will be fine and in the playoffs.

Anyone over-reacting to this Bengals loss (as nice as it may be) is just the same type of person that says the Chiefs are done.
Exactly. People soon forget that the Bengals started off 0-2 last year and yet still played us in the AFCCG.

Divisional games are always 'different birds' and don't always go to the more talented unless of course you are in the AFC West:p

redfan 09-10-2023 03:06 PM
Joe Blows. Probably not totally healed, but **** him.

IowaHawkeyeChief 09-10-2023 04:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiefshrink (Post 17099993)
Exactly. People soon forget that the Bengals started off 0-2 last year and yet still played us in the AFCCG.

Divisional games are always 'different birds' and don't always go to the more talented unless of course you are in the AFC West:p
They lost 2, 3 point games, one to the Steelers and one to the Cowboys. Burrow threw for 338 and 199 in those games. Today they got beat by 21 and Burrow threw for 82 yards. That's a horrendous start, and while it may turn out like last year, they are currently not comparable.

RaidersOftheCellar 09-10-2023 04:13 PM
Last year it took a comedy of errors to lose to the Steelers in OT. 5-0 turnover disparity and a couple blocked kicks. Bit different than just getting demolished in every phase.

smithandrew051 09-10-2023 04:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by smithandrew051 (Post 16779456)
Worst QB of all time imho
This!

DRM08 09-10-2023 04:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaidersOftheCellar (Post 17100146)
Last year it took a comedy of errors to lose to the Steelers in OT. 5-0 turnover disparity and a couple blocked kicks. Bit different than just getting demolished in every phase.
That's true, but they also got crushed by a bad Cleveland team on Halloween. Cleveland just owns the Bengals in general.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/matchup/_/gameId/401437818


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