ChiefsPlanet - Other Sports Kobe Bryant and daughter killed in helicopter crash

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Kobe Bryant and daughter killed in helicopter crash (https://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=328561)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Titty Meat (Post 14755005)

Seems pretty doubtful the pilot committed suicide sounds like the conditions went from OK a few miles away to really bad where they were at.

I asked this earlier and got no response. What should the pilot had done in that situation with the fog?

Sounds like they shouldn't have even been in the air to begin with.

He must have been flying very lower doesnt look like hes far up on that hill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Titty Meat (Post 14755005)

I responded with an idea but I am not a pilot was hoping they would chime in.

Is there going to be a black box with voice recording?

It’s somewhat telling that LA County sheriffs grounded all of their helicopters around that time. Without knowing all the facts, I’m just going on 2020 hindsight, I’d say they probably never should’ve taken off.

I’m also fixed wing guy, not a Helo guy, and so unfamiliar with procedures, but I would’ve climbed above the cloud deck, and requested an IFR flight plan or vectors to the nearest vfr fbo. Then told the passengers that they needed to make other arrangements to get to the game.

That’s the logical F/W answer. Likely assumes you aren’t already below the terrain, following roads and clear to climb.

Below ridge lines , single ship, helo guys typically plan “lower, slower” then land. Didn’t work obviously. at his altitude, and the flight track may show him trying to climb to “on top” or other IFR handling at the end. That’s why I say the collective position at impact will tell us much about his final thoughts.

His initially not filing IFR tells us his preflight thoughts and gameplan. He is using Special Visual flight procedures. He is trying to maintain ground contact and picking his way through the ridges and terrain in the low areas using roads while staying clear of clouds. The fog is likely overwhelming to his gameplan.

He is single pilot aviating, navigating, and communicating, with PAX in bad conditions. He’s held outside of an ata for 15 minutes in SVFR conditions which is probably much less due to the fog.

Once he goes “Popeye” or Inadvertant IMC, he is apparently trying to turn around probably attempting to reacquire the ground (his gameplan) and loses situational awareness. (I’m guessing)

The reported airspeed track doesn’t make sense to his request and conditions though. He may be transitioning to an instrument scan and back to searching for the ground.

Turning around is further disorienting when transitioning to a split instrument and visual scan and helo guy’s typically assume maintaining ground reference.

The sound witness statements about hovering or 3-5 knots is likely wrong but causes further evidence of his attempt to regain the ground vice starting an instrument climb.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coyote (Post 14754841)

...One seasoned helicopter pilot told TMZ, he could not understand why Kobe's pilot would have maintained a speed of 161 knots in such dense fog. One of the benefits of a helicopter is you can go much slower -- even 15 mph -- to gingerly avoid terrain if you're uncertain.”...

This is what I've been saying. It just doesn't make sense unless there was a catastrophic navigation system failure.

Awhile back on 60 Minutes they did a piece showing how hackers could take over an automobile via the internal wireless system. Wonder if the same is possible on a newer model helicopter...

Quote:

Originally Posted by rabblerouser (Post 14755038)

This says absolutely nothing about crashing into a cliff.

You sure you're not just remembering the Jessica Lange movie about Patsy Cline?

It was the movie you are correct. I remember that scene. Well I guess I fell for what they call dramatic license.:p Thx !!

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyHammersticks (Post 14755214)

The S76 model has hydraulic servo assisted flight controls with a stabilization control. Meaning mechanical mainly so no fly by wire to be hacked. Few other systems to include NAV, could be so catastrophic by its failure, if possible to hack. The sound witness seems pretty clear about powered flight.

Probably the best write up of what happened in the pilots mind.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Helicopters...omment/ffryqoc

Quote:

With lots of traffic asking about what happened with the Kobe crash yesterday, I wrote up a response for the non-aviators to understand IIMC (Inadvertent Flight Into Instrument Meteorological Conditions) and why, once airborne, it can become so deadly. I felt this was a good write up, but mods, feel free to delete if it's not appropriate here.

----------

In response to a 'why didn't he just do [insert simple thing here]', and why it really chaps my ass:

Here's what happens when a pilot goes IIMC....

First, it's unplanned. As a general rule, its human nature to not want to commit to going into the clouds. You're flying VMC (visually), so going IMC and transitioning to the instruments is very dangerous and not planned. You end up in controlled airspace, on your instruments, re-calibrating your brain to fly on the instruments, changing who you're talking to, no longer in control of your flight route, etc. So there's a natural resistance to doing it. Plus, any helicopter pilot with more than a handful of hours has encountered some weather and made adjustments to stay out of it. It's not like every time there's a cloud you punch in.

So, instead of committing to it, you slow back and decrease your altitude. Flying at 1000' AGL and 100 KIAS? Time to drop to 500' and 80. Then 300' and 70. Then 200' and 60. Etc. This is the right move until it isn't. If you're not really decisive and psychologically ready to commit to punching in, it's easy to find yourself too low and too slow. Now you punch in anyway and you're in a way, way, way, way worse situation. Because now you're closer to the ground and too slow.

'But why not climb straight up?' asks the non-helicopter pilot. 'That's easy, right? just get away from the stuff that can kill you.... *smug face*'

Because when you're slow in a helicopter and yank an armful of collective, you have a lot more to deal with than a normal transition into IMC, which is still a **** ton.

Even in forward flight you have to ensure your scan is perfect to manage your heading, pitch, attitude, altitude, vertical speed and torque, all of which are intertwined and must be adjusted to while taking into account the impact it'll have on the others. And the radio is going crazy. Or its not because you're not on the right channel yet. And your navigation cues aren't ready (probably) for an instrument route. And even though the rule is: aviate then navigate then communicate, it's hard to just ignore the other two. Since your slow you also have to take into account that the aircraft is going to rotate more in opposition to the increased torque because you're not in forward flight. And it all very, very, very disorienting.

So this is how it plays out, tragically.... (I'm not saying this is what happened here exactly, just that it's what can happen in a similar situation)....

----

You get slow and low. You're looking for a way out. There's rising terrain in front of you, but you can only see some of it because of the clouds and fog. So you get close to ETL...maybe you can go to the left. Let's start that turn. And *poof*, you're in the cloud. ****, this is scary. Can I see outside? Yea, kind of. There's a tree, some grass, a road. Ok, I'm still kind of good....nope, now it's all gone. OK, ****! I need to be on instruments. Initiate a climb. Vertical speed is good. AGL altitude is low, but climbing. Crap, we're turning to the left at 60 degrees a second. Apply pedal to counter that. Forward cyclic to stabilize and get some forward airspeed. Ok, pitch is better...I'm not spinning...shit, my torque is too high...take a little power out...I wonder who I need to talk to now...no, don't worry about that yet. Get back to your scan...heading is good, nose attitude is good, power is good, SHIT, we're descend at 3000'/min. We're too low. Yank an armful of collective. Fixate on vertical speed and AGL altitude. Pitch is ****ed, HSD is spinning, torque is through the roof, nose goes from way down, to way up, collective still in your armpit....the end.

---

I get anxious just typing that. IIMC is scary. Anyone who says it isn't has either not experienced it, or has more experience that I can even fathom, and I've got quite a bit.

My heart goes out to everyone involved here, the pilot and his family included. He screwed up, but flying is dangerous and weather is scary and unpredictable. Rest in Peace. And fly safe out there. Take offs are optional.

-----EDIT: Some acronym explanations added----------

AGL (Above Ground Level....how many feet am I above what's under me right now)

KIAS (Knots Indicated Airspeed....how fast am I moving relative to the air around me....not quite the same as ground speed, but close)

Collective (power. Pull it up, things on the ground get smaller. Push it down, things on the ground get bigger.)

ETL (Effective Translational Lift....the forward speed you need to have to fly in clean air...it's when the helicopter becomes a lot more power efficient and easier to fly)

HSD (Horizontal Situation Display....basically the compass to show what direction you're going)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiefshrink (Post 14755229)

It was the movie you are correct. I remember that scene. Well I guess I fell for what they call dramatic license.:p Thx !!

Yeah, it was definitely dramatized.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue (Post 14755248)

Probably the best write up of what happened in the pilots mind.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Helicopters...omment/ffryqoc

Wow. Just reading that scenario makes you pucker up. How terrifying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by e3263518 (Post 14753045)

I was shocked when I read the news on Twitter earlier. You see stories about helicopter crashes coming out of places like Hawai'i almost every month. That's why I made a promise to myself to never get on a helicopter. They are just not as safe as planes.

Don't even want to talk about what happened on Bill Graham's helicopter crash.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pogue (Post 14755248)

Probably the best write up of what happened in the pilots mind.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Helicopters...omment/ffryqoc

Yeah, this is part of what I meant about procedures. More than half of this is just backwards from everything I've been trained to do. Things like getting lower and slower. For a fixed wing, speed is life. Getting lower and slower is just not in the book. You keep your speed and climb out of trouble.

And five nights a week I haul a Metroliner III into BUR, so I'm passingly familiar with the area. But I've never seen it during the day. To me I know there's mountains on three sides because they're on the chart, and I've seen the lights along or near the ridges of those mountains, but I've never seen any detail. But I know enough that I know I wouldn't want to be driving around 1000 ft off the deck in clouds along their bases. It can be a treacherous place to fly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHOG (Post 14755026)

I'm no pilot, but to me, wouldn't you slow down? Of course, barring any mechanical malfunction.

You slow down, you lose control of the helo and it becomes much harder to maneuver and change altitude.