|
Burrow is clearly elite... and this team will be a challenge to play for years to come, as long as they can sign some of those other players.
If you don't think Burrow is elite and had you scared a bit going into that game after going 0-3 vs. him, well, you are just reeruned. |
Josh Rivers is dropping down the QB list
|
Quote:
|
I don't see how you can't say the guy isn't elite. I mean who would you put above him other than Mahomes?
He didn't have the best game last Sunday but the Bengals still barely lost. He was playing with a shit offensive line too. |
Had Matt Ryan reached elite status going into 2017?
Was Rivers ever elite? |
Josh Allen has the most bruises. That has to account for something. Right? ;)
https://www.si.com/nfl/bills/news/bu...ses-super-bowl |
Quote:
But I think Ryan and Rivers both are HoFers if Eli is considered one. |
Quote:
It’s easy. He hasn’t performed in the post season, especially when it matters most. This keeps getting ignored but when discussing elite, for me, to meet that you elevate the team and do everything reasonably possible to get wins in the post season which is a huge factor (among others), otherwise you are a SB winner getting dragged to championships like early Brady, Dilfer, etc. but not elite, or you are a regular season stat builder who fails in crunch time in the playoffs, not elite. Heck if you consistently play only average in the playoffs but have some hardware to point to along with sustained huge regular season I can say that guy is elite as well. So far Burrow has good to great regular seasons but average at best post seasons and even worst 4th quarters in the playoffs. With such a brief career thus far and lacking big post season moments or hardware he just hasn’t earned elite yet. Being a top regular season QB in a given small period is not the same as being elite. Any number of guys can be a top QB in given year or brief period and have a good post season run. Elite takes some combination of more time with regular season numbers, post season success for team, QB performance, and hardware. |
Quote:
He played great in Buffalo this year. And fine in KC last year and this year and OK last year in Tennessee. He won 2 road games last year in the POs(1 against the #1 seed, the other in KC) and another PO road game against Buffalo. Mahomes>Burrow but the narrative you're pushing is total bullshit. He's had 2 deep PO runs now and isn't some flash in the pan like Foles was. He was sacked 7 times vs the Rams, 9 vs the Titans. He has a dog shit OL with great offensive weapons (arguably the best in the league). |
Quote:
|
Quote:
He benefited from a legendary performance from his defense in 2007. Ryan also has a MVP. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
One 300 yard game. 0 fourth quarter passing TDs. 0 30 point games. Huge drop in rating in 4th quarter. 0 drives in fourth quarter leading to TDs. There is no debating his defense has carried him in the playoffs. |
Joe "Cool" and being elite? Yeah, no.
Quote:
So are they elite or not? If so, why? If not, why not? |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Allen’s defense has given up 36 points per game in Buffalo’s last 3 playoff losses. Mahomes’ defense has given up an average of 32 points per game in 3 Playoff losses. Last year Patrick needed 36 just to make it to overtime with Buffalo. He needed 31 just to make it to overtime against the Patriots 4 years ago. Burrow has not dealt with this scenario in his career so far. I am curious to see how long Cincy’s defense can keep playing at such a strong level. |
He throws the best back shoulder / sideline ball in the game. Puts defenses in a bind when he can connect on those so consistently.
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
I think he's a really good QB and I think Bengals will definitely be back. A QBs job is to win the game by scoring more points than the other team not get fantasy football stats. His stats aren't even that bad. As far as the 'elite' well that word does get thrown around a lot and there doesn't seem to be any clear cut definition of what an elite QB actually is. However if you take the webester definition e·lite [əˈlēt, āˈlēt] NOUN a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society: So once again who would you put over Burrow? Right now -- I'd say he is elite. Only QB I'd take over him would be Mahomes. |
Quote:
Also, going by eye test, Burrow hasn't played like shit like Allen did in his 2 PO games this year. He looked like ass vs Miami and he looked like ass vs Cincy. His play vs Miami would have likely cost them the game (along with their defense) if Miami had a QB with a pulse. Quote:
Yes, 28-3 is awful. But how much on that is on Ryan vs the defense/Shanahan going conservative on offensive playcalling? Quote:
To me, to be considered elite, a QB's play has to elevate those around him. I'd argue Rivers and Ryan both did that. Quote:
If your argument is that Burrow isn't Mahomes, fine. I agree. But if you're going to discredit him, you'd have to day the same with a guy like Brady or Roethlisberger who had good defenses/supporting casts. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Flip Allen and Burrow on their teams right now.
Do you think Allen would make the Bengals better and do you think Burrow would make the Bills better? I think Allen would keep the Bengals about the same or slightly worse since he's not as accurate and would try making plays with his feet more because the Bengals OL is not good. I think the Bills would be better if they had Burrow. Allen, IMO, has a higher ceiling than Burrow given his ability to run but is more volatile. |
Quote:
Generally speaking, Allen turns the ball over too much and Burrow is the more accurate passer. But that Buffalo defense is pretty damn bad in the playoffs even if the QB plays well. Take a look at their 42-36 loss to KC in the playoffs last year. Allen essentially played perfect football, while his defense got torched. Burrow has yet to deal with a scenario like the one above. You should know this as well as anyone. Your explosive Rams offense was only able to score 23 on that Cincy defense in the Super Bowl. The Bengals defense has held KC to 23-24 points in 3 straight games as well. That type of defense is massively helpful to all QB's. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Of course there will always be debate, but the debate should be more about who gets included in the 5 in the last couple of spots. Some guys are there every year, and those are your sure-fire hall of famers. Some guys age out. Some guys climb into that top 5 but can't maintain that level. So Ryan absolutely had a year or two there where he was in that category. Rivers spent most of his career hovering around the cut-off point, which is what Herbert looks like he'll do so far. Lamar had a year or two there where he was in that category, but his limitations have been pretty well exposed at this point. Eli had a couple of seasons where he was certainly there, and several more around the cut-off point, and some where he was not elite. Brady has, at this point, aged out it would appear-but christ, it took until age 45 for cryin' out loud. Manning I think fell out of that 5 his last season and smartly hung it up. Hurts climbed up in there this season. Will that last? Dunno. But Mahomes/Burrow/Allen are certainly elite, and you can argue the other two slots, but arguing the top 3 is kind of silly right now. You can argue that Mahomes is MORE elite, and I'd personally agree, but there's not a question of whether Burrow and Allen qualify as 'elite'. |
Quote:
At this point in time, Mahomes is the only elite QB in the NFL IMO, but if you must call Burrow elite, then we need a new adjective for Mahomes. The gap between them is massive. |
Quote:
And the only adjective for Mahomes is: THE BEST WE'VE EVER SEEN. I think that's pretty fair. |
Quote:
His accuracy is good enough that he PURPOSEFULLY underthrows balls to force a potential DPI situation. With most guys in the NFL, it's happenstance, not by design. |
Quote:
He's not a HOF'er. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Sorry if Q.
<iframe id="reddit-embed" src="https://www.redditmedia.com/r/KansasCityChiefs/comments/10qk244/chef_mahomes_letting_burrow_try_on_the_jacket/?ref_source=embed&ref=share&embed=true" sandbox="allow-scripts allow-same-origin allow-popups" style="border: none;" height="527" width="640" scrolling="no"></iframe> |
Quote:
Someone can be the best currently playing their position but that does not make them an elite player. |
Quote:
I define elite QB play as top 5 QB, probable HOF type QB's. I think that's a perfectly reasonable definition. What's yours? |
Quote:
Great ≠ Elite |
Quote:
I think your perception has been utterly skewed by watching Mahomes and not a lot of the rest of the NFL. And undeniably great absolutely equals Elite, and that's really not arguable. Grass is green. The sky is blue, unless it's cloudy, and then it's one shade of gray or another. These aren't really things that are arguable. |
Quote:
Burrow has put himself in an elite class of qb. Been in the league for a few years and has already made a Super Bowl. |
You guys are waaaay too generous with your views on players.
No way you didn't grow up with participation trophies. Elite should be reserved for the best of the best. |
Quote:
If Burrow is elite, then you have to come up with some other way to describe Mahomes. If you say Mahomes is "elite" then Burrow simply isn't. They're not in the same class. |
ELITE
|
Quote:
2. Rivers has zero SB appearances despite having tons of talent around him. His team failed to make the playoffs one year despite having the #1 offense and #1 defense. Ryan was a bulk stats guy. He was surrounded by a lot of high end offensive talent. I never saw a guy who elevated those around him. Just a guy who won and put up great stats when surrounded by talent. |
Quote:
And yes, I know of only three truly elite QBs right now and those are Mahomes, Allen/Burrow (take your pick for who is #2 or #3). From #4-#10 it gets subjective as some are higher on Sherbert than myself while lower on Lawrence than I am. I am also pretty impressed with how much Hurts has improved since he was a freshman at Alabama. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
I think right now, Hurts is probably right at about #4 when healthy. His physical gifts are off the charts. I don't think he's near 100% healthy (at least not these last few games) and I'm not certain if his mental processing is elite yet, but the tools are all there, and he can make up for any of that with his legs at this point in his career. |
Quote:
A Super Bowl appearance in year 2 is a hell of an accomplishment. And out of all the QBs out there he’s clearly separated himself from guys like Allen and Herbert. He’s a clear qb2 and just because he isn’t mahomes doesn’t mean he’s not elite |
Quote:
Sure thing, buddy. You betcha. :thumb: |
I feel like I'm trying to have a conceptual argument with the banjo kid from Deliverance.
|
Quote:
No one is scared of Burrow when they gameplan. They are scared of who he throwing the ball to. He is a great QB as of today but how much is from his WR bailing him out? |
Quote:
|
Quote:
Yeah he has weapons but so what so does Mahomes. Kelce is arguably greatest TE of all-time and while we don't have a superstar WR as a group - they are good. Not to mention Reid is a great offensive HC who is extremely creative. No one can do it by themselves. It's a team game. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Burrow has elite accuracy and processing. In my opinion he is definitely the number 2 QB in the NFL right now.
|
Quote:
|
1. Mahomes
2. Burrow 3. Allen 4. Herbert 5. Lawrence/Hurts Allen without a doubt would be second if he wasn't so erratic. |
Joe Burrow is basically doo doo in da toilet, to me
|
Quote:
|
Mahomes
Allen Burrow Herbert That's my order. Allen has already shown that he can carry and be electric on a team with lesser talent. Burrow has not shown us that he can win like that. And as much credit as people wanna give him for being this Brady like savant, Spags made him look like a rookie. What was that i heard, ZERO sustained drives over 8 plays against us on Sunday? 2 Ints and what easily coulda been 2 more. Burrow threw a ball right at McDuffie who barely even moved off his spot in a base cover 2. Dude's game basically amounted to two prayer balls in which his receivers made excellent plays. Plays that most receivers won't make. So no, spare me this crap about him being intellectually elite. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
You don’t get to be elite because of what you might do. That’s ridiculous. On the field results are all that matters. Otherwise it’s just potential. |
Quote:
Ryan and Rivers are not elite despite having seasons as good or better than Burrow. And I don’t think more than their cities fans would argue otherwise. Elite can’t just be a few good/great regular seasons unless you have hardware or at the very LEAST amazing postseason performance with some bad luck. Burrow only has the regular season which isn’t enough considering he’s not even blowing out the competition in that. |
Quote:
I said 'on a trajectory', as in they are playing in such a way as to end up hall of famers. And that's not a stretch to say. Now, if you guys want to go full reerun and say hall of famers aren't elite, then that's your business, and you guys have fun arguing utter horseshit, but I'll just bow on out and you can have your fantasy world arguments. And sometimes guys are 'elite' for a season, like Matt Ryan, but unable to sustain that. Sometimes guys get injured and all off, or age out, and are no longer elite, etc. But for the last couple of seasons, there is no question that Mahomes, Burrow, and Allen have been pretty ****ing elite and to argue against that is just nonsense. Allen played hurt, and Hurts is hurt now, but both when 100% were favorites to win MVP. Now, Hurts was elite most of one season; If he can repeat that another year or two, then you can add him into that top 5 'elite' class. You guys are so blinded by Mahomes that you can't acknowledge greatness in others. These guys are absolutely elite, and sometimes they're going to beat us, Mahomes or no. They're great. Allen has. Burrow has. It's a fact. I wouldn't trade our guy for anyone, but there are other guys that are also great. This is a stupid argument and I'm out. |
Quote:
I agree that Burrow is elite. Strange thing is his QBR grade has been lower than expected to be honest. I think QBR is more accurate than passer rating, since QBR accounts for passing, rushing, clutch plays, etc. These are the QBR rankings for the main 3 guys: Mahomes: #1 in 2018 & 2022, #2 in 2019 & 2020, #5 in 2021 Allen: #2 in 2022, #3 in 2020, #6 in 2021, #24 in 2018 & 2019 Burrow: #10 in 2022, #12 in 2021, #24 in 2020 Even a "bad" year for Mahomes was Top 5, which is pretty amazing. Now if we want to remove the rushing element and focus only on passing aspect of QBR, here's what it looks like: Mahomes: #1 in 2018, 2019, 2020, & 2022. #5 in 2021 Allen: #2 in 2020, #6 in 2022, #7 in 2021, #24 in 2019, #31 in 2018 Burrow: #9 in 2022, #11 in 2021, #21 in 2020 Allen's improvement from 2019 to 2020 is pretty incredible, gotta give him some big props for that. That was also the year they added Stefon Diggs, which helped quite a bit. |
1. Mahomes
2. Burrow 3a. Herbert 3b. Allen For me being a "student of the game" is 'essential' in great QBing. The reason I put Herbert above Allen is you can see in Herbert's play he is further along than Allen as is Burrow. Not doubt Josh's athleticism saves him a lot and he gets wins from his athleticism BUT that only goes so far. Allen melted down towards the end of the season and playoffs because the cerebral side of him was limited, he had no answers especially in the Bengals game in how they were scheming him. This is NOT to say he can't get there because I believe he will but it is just taking him longer. |
Quote:
If they played in todays game rivers would be on Herbert’s level. And Matt Ryan would be on a stafford level, maybe a little better than cousins. These guys aren’t even remotely close to burrow. Without a doubt he’s qb2 and there’s a big distance to qb3, and that’s considering that Allen has been pretty decent and productive. I’d say it’s more than fair to say at worst he’s Brees. and that’s pretty elite. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
I think Chase is the next Jerry Rice so he's got that going for him. Chace makes an average quarterback elite. I love our guys but Chase is on another level. Give Chase to Mahomes and we'd put 50 burgers up weekly.
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
I've watched the guy play a ton and he's got an elite arm and prototypical measurables. He also has virtually no grasp of situational football and when he really needs to carry that team, he can't. There's more to QB's than just athletic talent. The best of the best have something more. Mahomes has an extra gear. Burrow does too. Allen probably does too. Herbert simply doesn't. |
| All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:27 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
