Damn Kizer falling fast

http://ble.ac/2naWJ0Q

Give him to Andy. Andy'll get it done.

head case.

There's your Andy 4th round project QB

So what if we go 12-4 again and the top guys are again out of reach? We either blow our entire cap on a free agent or trade our entire draft to trade up? People will likely still be saying wait till next year.

They aren't going 12-4 next year and yes they should trade an entire draft for a qb.

We aren't going 2-14 either.

Yes but it's not like they can't move up to get a QB. This is really a dumb argument to say if they go 10-6 they aren't drafting a QB. Let's call it what it is a few posters on here are impatient.

If the QB class is stronger.....then it's going to take more to move up.

Whats your point here dude? I and a few others state the obvious theres no clear franchise QB in this draft. Build the roster in this draft use picks next year to trade for a much better QB prospect. Somehow that's seen by the draftubators as making excuses. Now you're using an excuse for not drafting one next year. Which is it?

They'll win 12 games next year again.

They may lose early in the playoffs, but they'll win double digits again.

I'm not making any excuses. I'm simply stating that the mantra of "*insert year here* is better" won't get you shit. We're not losing enough games to pick high enough and we won't have the ammo to move up like you're making it sound.

Doubt it. Lucky to win 12 last year with a leaky defense and a declining Alex Smith.

This bullshit about "next year" is so ****ing stupid. How many high picks are up to their hype? Luck sure hasn't been. Eli and Big Ben won with great teams/coaching.

Brees, Brady, Carr, Wilson, Dak, Romo, Rodgers, Flacco, Kaepernick, Cousins, etc.


All these QB's were considered "developmental" types like this QB class. Really there is no elite QB. Great teams with solid QB's win all the time.

**** this 2018 QB class bullshit. If there's a guy like Mahommes that you like, take him. This team was a decent QB away from the AFCCG.

Their whole front 7 was hurt though. That and another added draft and development of this year, they'll be good. They've got a top 5 coaching staff and front office.

Yeah, people keep screaming about the run D, but having 2 D linemen and the entire starting lb corps on IR is a huge part of that. I fully agree we need a new starter to replace DJ and someone next to him as well. To act like those injuries weren't a factor is just being dishonest.

I don't imagine well sweep the division win at New England or Dallas plus we play Pittsburgh again. I hope I'm right this team needs to a chance at a good QB and the front office needs to be humbled.

Humbled? For what? They've been good, act accordingly.

I doubt they sweep the division, but they'll win tough games.

Yes

Trade picks to move to the top of the 2nd and take the best QB then. I'd prefer to draft BPA in the first and Mahomes in the 2nd if he's there.

Why?

If you're going to take a QB at the top of the 2nd, just take him at the back of the 1st instead when you'll get a 5th year of team control.

That 5th year option could be a $20 million asset if the QB hits. There's nobody in organized sports who's pay is more overrvalued by virtue of his position only than the quarterback on an NFL team. If you're going to burn picks to move up in the 2nd to grab a QB, you'd be far better served to just take said QB at 27, especially if you know you'll have to sit that guy for 1 or even 2 years.

Take a QB in the second round, sit him for 2 years, get a rocky 2019 with him as a starter and then what happens if he plays well in 2020? You're looking at a Foles situation where you can't tell if you have fools gold and really want to extend the guy. Meanwhile, if you took him in the 1st, you'd get 2021 as a 5th year option, you can pick it up and then either use that as leverage to negotiate a better extension or just provide more insurance to make sure you have what you think you have.

Ask the Raiders if they wish they'd have traded into the back of the 1st to take Carr - they'll tell you hindsight says they should've done it in a heartbeat. Now they're looking at Carr being a UFA in 2018 and they'll either get to spend a shitload this offseason to keep him or have to franchise him a year sooner.

Or you could just avoid reaching and losing out on other good players/building a great all around team that will consistently win.

I don't think the Raiders care too much. He's gonna get paid regardless and would of been paid before the option year kicked in.

Not sure if it's been covered, but despite how fun Mahomes' gunslinger-ness is to watch in college, his footwork is god ****ing awful. Throws standing either straight up or off his back foot often. On his deep balls, he has an awkward side-arm whip thing, most likely because he is forcing it from a shitty stance. Because of this, some of the balls are floaters. I think he will get picked often.

Specifically referring to the Oklahoma '16 game tape

You don't think the Raiders would rather have that 5th year option and the extra $15-20 million in cap space that comes from it? Because that cap would then roll over indefinitely. The money they save there could go to Mack or Cooper.

I mean sure, they'd take him in the 2nd over not having him at all, but the idea that they just don't care about the massive cap savings they could've had if they'd have drafted him in the 1st is silly.

The 5th year option is an often overlooked and MASSIVE potential advantage for a football team.

No.

The Raiders were a ****ing dumpster fire organization and needed all their draft picks.

Cap space is a thing that teams are getting more and more of, at a rate faster than they would like. That's before discussing that waiting another year just means Carr's value could be a shit load more because the Packers could lock up Arod at a new enhanced rate, which would reset the market.

E: Cousins for sure will reset the market

Cap space is going to start drying up over the next couple of years. It can't survive at the rate it's growing.

Possibly, but that's still years away.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Ball velocity numbers (MPH) from the Combine:<br><br>60 - Mahomes<br>59 - Webb<br>56 - Kizer<br>55 - Trubisky, Evans<br>53 - Peterman, Kaaya<br>49 - Watson</p>&mdash; Dane Brugler (@dpbrugler) <a href="https://twitter.com/dpbrugler/status/840334987958329346">March 10, 2017</a></blockquote>
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I don't understand the "wait until next year crowd" whatsoever. Who are you waiting for? I'll get to that from my perspective in a second.

What I will say is that this class, while it isn't polished, certainly has a few QBs worthy of being developed. What I do know is that KC really doesn't have a clear-cut #2 QB on the roster. What I also know is that KC needs to look at the long-term future to replace Alex Smith and they need to do so now if you want a QB that is ready to run Reid's offense when he steps in.

So, onto who you you're waiting for.

Josh Rosen was a Freshman this year. He didn't technically red-shirt in 2015, he merely early-enrolled in classes (Jan) and played spring ball. He has 2016 as his first year of playing. There is far from any guarantee he declares as a Sophomore.

Sam Darnold was a red-shirt Freshman last year. Like Rosen, he has one good year and everyone is claiming to bank for him in 2018. There's no guarantee Darnold declares either. To be quite frank, it's not a regular occurrence that QB's declare before they complete their Junior season.

Luke Falk is your top legitimate prospect, as he'll be red-shirt Senior coming out of Washington State's uptempo offense.

Mason Rudolph is going to be your next top prospect, assuming he continues his ascent coming off his Junior season into his Senior season. He has a solid resume and great arm, but is also coming out of one of those "fancy" spread offenses.

Jake Browning is coming into his true Junior year, so he may be more likely to declare than Rosen or Darnold. We'll have to see what shakes out there and if there's any drop off after his shoulder surgery on his throwing arm following the playoffs this year.

Tanner Magnum, well he's kind of what we have in this draft so far and he's going to be old coming out of BYU. He had a gray-shirt, then 2 years of mission work. He was the back up to Hill, but Hill got hurt and he put up a great year. However, he didn't keep the job for this season, as Hill was again named the starter. Magnum played the season finale and the bowl game after Hill went down again. If he has a great final year, he could see some early round talk, but that's no guarantee. He'll be 24 coming out and would be 25 when the season starts in the NFL.

Baker Mayfield... He kind of reminds me of Chase Daniel, and I'm not so certain he's going to be a top name guy come the draft. Plus, he just hurt the shit out of his stock with his drunk/flee/arrest situation in Arkansas. We'll see there.

Basically, you're waiting on two QB's and hoping KC can get in striking distance at this point. Maybe you end up with a great draft if a couple sophomore's declare, but then you have that situation you have this year of "are they ready?" I don't think you're gaining any of much ground waiting for anything.

If there's a guy there you're comfortable with and think you can develop this season, draft him. Worry about next year when you know what is there next year.

I really don't know why you wouldn't be drafting a QB every single year until you feel that you've got a hit.

The Chiefs need to revamp their entire QB depth chart.

I'm not saying don't draft one. I'm just saying don't waste a draft pick by reaching for an overrated QB prospect if there's someone at another position who is clearly a better player and will actually contribute to the success of the team.

Even the top couple of QBs in this class are late 1st to early 2nd round talents at best while the rest look like 4th round, or later, developmental prospects. But some idiotic team is going to reach on them and lose out on a higher caliber player at another position.

Agree.. which is why I hope KC drafts a QB like Peterman late rd 3, and can still draft one of the top 2018 quarterbacks. All the more so, if for some reason Peterman isn't impressing them by the end of 2017 (from a practice/film room perspective).

Imo, Webb has more potential. If they take Peterman, they might as well have held onto Murray.

I don't think there's a specific QB or range I'd lock myself into. Just stack the QB's you like up on your board and just work the board.

If it shakes out that you have an ideal match in the first, go for it. If not, don't force it.

I might be in the minority with this opinion, but I think there's a good variety of prospects for the Chiefs in this draft.

I think that's alot of media stuff in terms of where the QB's get put on boards. Every year we see guys get drafted early and people go "what?" It's kind of just up to the individual team and where they see guys. I don't know that they are 2nd round talents. I just don't think there's a guy there if you're picking in the top 10 or 15 and you need a guy to start this year, that there is one there for you. That doesn't mean don't take them round 1 or even high. They just all look to need some film room time and some refinement in some things. Most of these kids haven't taken a snap from under center since high school. They have to learn 3, 5, and 7 step drops and timing out of those drops. If they came from all these 1-2 read spread programs, they have to learn to make more reads. I don't think these kids are ready for the NFL game mentally like they used to come out ready. I'd say all of the guys in the top say 8 QB's have the arm talent. And the big thing for me is that QBs always get overvalued. If you think they are a 2nd round guy, then bump that up a round. If you think they are a round 1 type, then generally bump that up to top 10. It's just the nature of the beast. Teams need QBs and they throw more caution to the wind at that position than any other.

I guess that's where NFL teams have to place there dividing lines. Which kids are closest to ready and have legitimate NFL talent because those are my round 1's. Which ones are further away? I think my guys that are closest are going to be Trubisky, Watson, and Mahomes. I think Watson has the least natural arm talent of that group and Mahomes has the greatest. Watson is the most tested. I'd probably have those my round 1 guys. I think Kizer is my borderline guy. He's just has been too inconsistent for me to say with certainty he should go round 1, but he's at least a guy you take round 2 and develop for a couple seasons. I don't like Kayaa that much, I really don't like his arm and his decision making and I think you have to start with one or the other. He's probably a 4th round guy to me. Peterman and Webb are my 3rd round types. Peterman is poised, he's NFL ready from the idea of reads and progressions. He's got the goods that way, but he lacks enough zip to be a guy I put round 1. I just don't know if he's going to be able to make those tight sideline throws or throws into NFL windows 20 yards down field. I think he's a guy you hope develops better core strength to deliver those strikes and he could be a very solid backup. Webb is kind of the other way around. I don't like his accuracy, but he spins a good ball. He doesn't make the best decisions with the football, but he's not as bad as many, even some in round 1. If he can improve his accuracy on short and intermediate throws, he could end up being a steal. Right now I see him as Nick Foles 2.0, a borderline starter in a couple years that's going to bounce around. Evans and Kelly have the arms, but they are more of my 5th round guys. Evans, we'll see if he can be an NFL type of QB. He's never had to make reads and I don't like the way he tucks and runs after one look. He actually reminds me alot of the way Alex Smith seemed to play a good portion of this season.... He's a guy to bring in but you won't have your answers about him immediately. Kelly, I know he can play but he's a knucklehead. Maybe some humbling by being a #3 clipboard holder for a couple years will get his head on straight, and if not you only wasted a day 3 pick. I think Dobbs and Beathard are draftable, but you've got some projects there that you hope might turn into solid backups for you at some point.

Am I the only one that thinks Mahomes is a Terrible prospect? His footwork is awful and it's not something that will be fixed in the NFL. He has so many throws that come off his back foot or off balance and not even out of necessity. It's just his natural throwing style to do so.

Most of the QBs need work, but he needs the most work by far and I don't think he'll ever fix his mechanics especially not by 2018 when I want our drafted QB to start by.
Posted via Mobile Device

I think the best QB in this class is Kizer. I'd draft him in the first if he's available. He has solid mechanics, had pro style reads and plays in college so he can make the easiest transition to the pros and he has good size, good arm and decent athleticism (going by game speed instead of his combine numbers).
Posted via Mobile Device

Mahomes is a project, but he's still my favorite if we go qb early...

Kizer has his appeal, but I just don't see a stud worth throwing a #1 at

I just don't see anything that separates him from a guy like Tyler Bray. To me, he's Bray with even worse mechanics and just happens to play in the Air Raid offense. If he played in the SEC, he would have been destroyed.

I understand taking projects but he's going to take way to long if ever to correct his mechanics and be developed enough to play.
Posted via Mobile Device

Agreed. He's Bray with worse mechanics.

Earlier in this thread I commented on Mahomes poor mechanics, but I'll say I've come full circle on him. He's more athletic than I initially gave him credit for (and on a different planet from Bray) and shows some physicality as a runner. But more importantly, his 'mechanical' issues ala his footwork I now see as a positive. When he has a clean pocket his footwork is solid. When he doesn't, he still can make unorthodox throws that no QB in the draft can make. He can throw accurately off his back foot, jump throws, can change the angle of his arm to avoid defenders/batted passes, and he can make any throw you want him to make. His style is just different than what the so called experts value.

My only worry is his tendency to leave the pocket with or without pressure...he likes to play backyard ball far too much. If you can lasso that in a bit without losing his knack to make a play....you have a winner. His success will also depend, like any, on how dedicated he is to the small stuff. The rest is there....and I stand corrected.

I'm not that high on him, but I think Davis Webb fits a lot of what Andy likes. He doesn't have serious mechanical issues, big strong kid with a strong arm and his team ran a WCO very similar to ours.

Seems like a better version of Nick Foles.

What are your guys' thoughts on Gunner Kiel out of Cincinnati as a late round (6th/7th) backup QB prospect? I like the kid's' mentality in the pocket and his arm is solid. I think he got battered too much behind that shit O-line and it hurt his overall play, but it looks like he has some very good tools to work with.

He's basically Nick Foles with less issues of passing due to being rather tall.

Needs to bang some steroids real hard for awhile.

Jason Cole

Follow up info on Davis Webb: One #NFL GM said his intangibles are "through the roof" good.

I'd never trust him.

All the shit with his recruiting, the commitments and decommitments, the transfer, the mental games w/ Tuberville. There's just something weird about how the kid is wired.

He hated competition and always seemed to need a coach barking at him to do anything and then if the coach barked too much, he'd shut down. Just not the kind of kid I expect to have the mental fortitude to amount to anything at this level.

I wouldn't even bother with him as a priority UDFA. If he wanted to come in on a 2-year futures deal as a camp body or something, I'd go ahead and see what he had because your alternatives are guys like Alex Tanney. But I'd be shocked if he ever throws an NFL pass.

I definitely agree on the recruiting part. Didn't he commit to like 3 or 4 different schools at one point or another? I dunno, remember it being odd.

I know Reid has been a fan of Cincy players going back to his days in Philly, so I thought about this kid.

As a Mizzou/ND fan, I watched his recruiting pretty closely.

Mizzou was on him and reportedly in the driver's seat but he wouldn't make up his mind so they went hard after Mauk. He took the offer and so they moved on from Kiel. Then he was going to ND until he changed his mind again and committed to Indiana. He was there's for almost the entire signing season until he flipped to LSU and then at the last second he had another last-minute flip to ND. Then at ND he got mad because he got redshirted and started looking for a transfer. Even his transfer stuff was weird.

The guy just doesn't seem to be able to deal with any kind of adversity and has serious issues simply making a decision.

IMO, best value QBs would be Peterman and Webb.

Kizer and Mahomes are 2nd/3rd rounders if the draft had decent QB talent. Unfortunately it doesn't and so they are being talked about as potential 1st rounders. They feel like Geno Smith all over again.

I'm right there with you.

I'm not sold at all, and i agree that those mechanical issues rarely get fixed in the NFL. Too much muscle memory at this point, and when the bullets start flying his mechanics will revert back just as they've done with nearly every other QB with bad mechanics.

With that said, the kid does have that "it" factor.

This is a classic boom or bust pick. There is no in between with this guy. He'll either be a gamer ala Aaron Rodgers, or he's going to be a complete slap-dick.

He's nowhere close to Bray. Completely different QB's.

He looked embarrassingly skittish in some of his plays. Completely panicking in a clean pocket on multiple plays.

Not sold at all.

Matter of fact, im leaning towards this kid being a complete flop.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if he falls out of the 1st.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/_FY0MdW3smM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

20 second mark:

He sees the rusher, gets hella happy feet and starts backpeddling and then throws a jump pass off his back foot into heavy traffic with two receivers intersecting in the same area. That's REALLY ****ing bad, man.

An NFL QB steps up in the pocket as that DE gets pushed out of the play, sets his feet and delivers the ball.

That one play highlights what's maddening about this guy. Everything leading up to the throw is awful, but he threw a ****ing touchdown pass with a defender in his grille.

So the questions are, is he just really good at his unorthodox style of play and is this sustainable in the NFL?

I see a tendency to go back across his body at times instead of setting his feet. It worked for him in college, I doubt it translates. He could learn to do it the right way and be great. He has all the physical tools, there's no denying that he's athletic and talented enough.

And that's the rub.

The Chiefs just aren't going to get a polished, all-world talent at QB in the next 5 years because they aren't going to bottom out. They have a coaching staff that can get 6 wins from a tuba if you ask for it.

So you have 2 options - physically limited, polished QBs like Peterman or physically skilled quarterbacks that need to be heavily coached like Mahomes.

Or option C: just getting butt-****ing lucky and hoping that the entire NFL misses on a guy that was both polished and physically skilled. Good luck with option C, gents.

At some point you have to pick your path, spin the wheel and take your chances lest you think there will come a time that A) a truly premier talent is available and B) a team would actually allow us to trade up for it. Because that's the other issue - Sam Darnold, if he is what people claim, will not be a Chief because either a team that sits #1 overall will take him and be unwilling to trade out of that spot or B) that team will be willing to move out, but not that far back so we still won't be players even if we do give up our entire draft and another 1st.

We purport to have one of the most gifted QB teachers/staffs in the NFL on our payroll - !@$#ing use 'em. Get the guy with the max tools and teach him how to use them.

That guy is Mahomes.

I'd like to squeeze some ****ing money out of it Mr Costello

I think he is. Put Bray on Texas tech and he has 700 yard games too. I don't know how Pat does in the SEC. Pat is faster but he's also built worse. He's shorter and pudgier. I just don't see what he has that Bray didn't.
Posted via Mobile Device

I just think teaching mechanics especially as bad as his are is EXTREMELY hard at the NFL level. Just because we have very good QB coaches and staff doesn't mean they should be given chicken shit to work with and we should expect chicken salad as the end product. At the end of the day Mahomes will go back to the style he's most comfortable with especially when the shit hits the fan. Some guys like Rivers can make shitty mechanics work. The vast majority can't no matter how talented they are.

That's why I think Kizer is a better bet. His mechanics are much better than Mahomes and the drop off isn't that steep from a talent standpoint.
Posted via Mobile Device

Kizer has good mechanics and is still inaccurate. Mahomes issues are weird, but they really didn't give him any accuracy issues.

:clap::clap::clap:
To the whole darn post. This is our year to make the move on a QB. Don't settle for "best" value. Go get the QB. Team is nearly built. Add to it in the future.

If they are really that desperate for a guy this year, then trade up for Trubisky and be done with it. He's the only QB who is really worth a 1st this year.

Mahomes is a mediocre prospect for what we would have to use on him, a 1st or high 2nd round pick. I'd rather get Webb in the 4th-5th over Mahomes in the 1st. Same kind of talent, with just as much raw potential, at a much cheaper price and you're not crippling your team for it.

Product of the system. He completed 65.7% of his passes. His backup came in and completed 65.5% of his passes. It's a product of that offense and playing the conference with the worst defense in the NCAA. Put Kizer on that team and he completes the same percentage too.
Posted via Mobile Device

If his footwork is that big of an issue though, he shouldn't be able to be accurate in any offense, correct?

I'm just not a fan of Kizer. At all. He looks like he should be "the guy" but he just hasn't ever really shown it.

You don't need good mechanics or fundamentals to beat shitty teams with shitty players. There have been a bunch of QBs in air raid systems that dominated and had similar stats to him, what separates him from them?
Posted via Mobile Device

Arm strength and natural ability would be what I'd imagine they'd say about his projection to the next level.

I personally have no real qualms about drafting any of these QB's at this point. I doubt the Chiefs take one.

I'm telling you, these qbs are going to drop like stones this draft.

Every front office is eyeing 2018 for qbotf....

Too much defensive and offensive skill position talent atop this draft.

So Kizer=Geno Smith?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">If you like Pitt QB Nate peterman- you need to check out penn QB torgerson..similar size and physical traits..very solid pro day- no combine</p>&mdash; Mike Mayock (@MikeMayock) <a href="https://twitter.com/MikeMayock/status/841738922178822144">March 14, 2017</a></blockquote>
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Is Mike slipping? He doesn't read the field nowhere near as well as Peterman and he's not as accurate underneath.

BTW... FWIW, I happen to like Kyle Sloter out of Northern Colorado a whole bunch. I know its a huge step in competition, but I think the kid deserves a flier late. Climbs the pocket, throws the ball on a rope, athletic, can throw on the run, very quick release and nice footwork/motion.

Took me a while but I did happen across a decent highlight vid of Sloter. So here ya guys go...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/HZsVsskA8ak" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Wow those of you who want Webb and petterman are asking for smith, Bray, hogan Muarry . Ok QBs but none that can win you ball games by themselves I'm all in on Kizer , Mahomes, or Watson

Glad somebody caught it...

Watson is the QB I want. I don't think he makes it past the Texans though. The Raiders have the pick right before Houston and they're not a realistic trade partner. The New York Giants at 23 hold a pick worth 760 points according to the trade value chart. KC could package their first and their compensatory 3rd round pick and come up with 766 points. That would be pretty cool if he slipped to 23. Letting Sean Smith walk would have essentially bought us Deshaun Watson.

Idk, something about Watson's final year makes me not really want to touch him in the 1st. Yeah they won the ship, but I think he might be a case of great college QB, mediocre pro QB.

BJ Kissel

ESPN's @McShay13 says Tennessee's Josh Dobbs and Pitt's Nate Peterman are the most underrated QBs in this draft. Says both could be steals.

We all know it's one of these 2 in rd 3. It's gonna happen

Dobbs is pretty underrated, but I wouldn't want to hang my hopes on the guy.

Alek Torgersen

As much as I love Deshaun Watson, if KC passed on a QB in the first couple rounds, this is the guy I want as a developmental prospect. Chiefs were in attendance for his pro day.

Here is the url for the video of his pro day reps (I don't have link privileges as a newb to the forum -- if someone else wanted to embed, by all means..) >>

youtu(dot)be/VBKR_AxGPOo

I love his footwork and accuracy (granted its against air). He also looked very good in the East-West Shrine game.

Some other notable seniors that will be in the mix

Max Browne (Pitt) - Transfer from USC
Mike White (Western Kentucky)
Quinton Flowers (South Florida)
Jeremiah Briscoe (Sam Houston State)

Other Notable Underclassmen that could declare
Lamar Jackson (Louisville)
Josh Allen (Wyoming)
Nick Fitzgerald (Miss. State)


Overall...Seniors alone...a more impressive class than 2017. Two or more of those underclassmen declare and it blows 2017 out the water, especially if Allen and either Darnold or Rosen declare.

This isn't to say wait til next year though. Dorsey hails from the Ron Wolf school of team building which dictates drafting a QB every year. He will likely draft one this year. But overall, the 2018 class is looking special.