He has flaws, he's no Andrew Luck.

I'm not totally sold on him as a leader. He threw the whole team under the bus while he was out. Even though I mostly agree with the things he said, he should have bitten his tongue and it's things like that that may be a sign of why the problems happen in the first place.

IMO that was a pretty significant red flag.

Warming up to Barkley I see :)

Luck had/has no weakness in his game.

7-9

Chiefs draft around 12-15.

Smith goes 1
Barkley in top 5
Wilson in top 10

When asked why the Chiefs didn't attempt to go after a real QB, Pioli says, "You gotta remember that we still have a pretty good QB in Matt who made the Pro Bowl not too long ago and has led this team through some tough initial losses to begin the season."

2010 was probably the worst thing that could happen to this franchise (after the Cassel trade, of course)

meh. somebody will trade up to get the QB we want the pick before ours. Then we will find out that Pioli wasn't going to draft a QB anyway.

2009 was the worst thing to happen since 1999. Carl should have been gone with Marty.

This. You trade, move up, move mountains, whatever.

I think Dane hit on this, but the worst thing to happen to this franchise is hiring Pioli in 2009.

I think Wilson's overrated.

I remember when everyone was going nuts about him being a possible late entry to the draft last year. I watched a couple of games he played in and then his bowl game - I wasn't terribly impressed.

Petrino plays a baller system for QBs. It's essentially built to allow a QB to launch it downfield 4-5 times a game and let his WRs run under it.

I didn't see him doing much in terms of progressions or finding holes in defenses. He wasn't looking guys off or firing balls into windows. To me he looked like just another good college QB.

He looks like Jake Locker to me and that's about it. That's not a bad guy to end up with, but I don't see him as a star caliber player by any stretch.

I respect that although I disagree. I see him as a legit franchise QB.

I see where you're coming from, but I also see that he has a level of talent that isn't coachable, not to mention, an absolute cannon for an arm. I saw one pass in the bowl game that went 60 yards on a line. I don't even think Cassel can throw 60 yards period, whether the less on a line.

Horrible comparison, IMO. Locker is much more mobile, tends to run more often (Wilson not at all) and is a significantly less accurate passer than Wilson. Tyler is strictly a pocket guy, whereas Locker is best used by rolling him out of the pocket. This is done to help compensate for his struggles going through his progressions in the pocket.

Locker never even completed over 58% of his passes in a season. Wilson completed 63% in his first full season as a starter and had a better TD/INT ratio, as well as a higher YPA.

Inb4 people posting about how Wilson has completed only 58% 2 & 1/2 games into the season.

Jeff George had a rocket arm with pretty good accuracy. He could also throw beautiful spirals

I think what DJ is saying is that Petrino's system can mask a QB's deficiencies and put him in positions where he doesn't have to be quick-thinking, mobile, or have great pocket awareness.

I need to see more of Wilson before I determine if he's got "it". I'm not making any judgments yet.

Locker had nowhere near the weapons or offensive system in place designed to make it as easy on him as it is on Wilson. Moreover, Wilson isn't a pure pocket guy; he's actually fairly mobile. However, the system he runs isn't built around him moving at all and frankly attempts to avoid it.

When I saw him play, I saw a guy that was absolutely a solid athlete and very similar to Locker in that regard. Locker is perhaps a little faster in a straight line and a little more fluid, but I don't see Wilson as a stiff at all.

As to accuracy, there's no question that Locker could be erratic at times (and in fact still is). I disagree that he struggles with his progressions, but I do think his mechanics fail him fairly often. Again I think that's a coaching issue as he wasn't exactly loaded with clean pockets and open WRs with the Huskies. I also think we're overrated Wilson's accuracy a great deal. His accuracy is no better than average. He made his bones last year flinging it into open spaces for one of the top 5 skill-position units in the country. Guys were constantly open in those Arky games. I did notice, however, that he often put too much air under the deep ball or threw his guys towards coverage.

I don't think of Ryan Mallet as anything approaching an 'accurate' passer, yet his completion % his last year in Arkansas was better than Wilson's was last season. That's a fantastic system for QBs.

They come from different systems and have been developed differently for sure. In the end, however, I think they carry very very similar physical attributes and upside. The same arguments you make in favor of me 'underrating' Wilson are why I say you're overrating him.

He's a good, not great, prospect.

Yup, that's what I'm saying.

I was with everyone else - excited that perhaps we would stumble into our answer at QB if this kid declared. I tried to watch him with as unbiased an eye as I could get.

In the end, I just wasn't that impressed by him. That system made him look far better than he was, IMO. It's the opposite of the argument I made with Bradford - sure, Bradford's system sure made things easy on him, but when you watched him throw he was just so precise in his targets and so crisp with his rhythm and timing that you could see he could be successful in virtually any system.

Wilson doesn't have that look to me. He looks like a guy with some very obvious warts (and leadership concerns) that's playing in a pass-happy system with a wealth of weapons at his disposal. Oh, and I also don't think he has a cannon anymore than Barkley does. He has an NFL arm, to be sure. But Stafford has a cannon. Luck and Griffin have cannon's. Bray has a cannon. Wilson just has a solid NFL arm.

I think years of watching Cassel has warped our expectation of an NFL quarterback. Wilson's arm would be, at best, slightly above average in the NFL.

Of all the 32 teams, who needs a QB more than us? No one. I don't think there will be the demand like years past. This year's draft pretty much took care of everyone. Only way the market opens up is if some seated QBs' tank their team & season.

Arizona & Buffalo look to be the only teams who might be in the market & if Kolb can just be average & let his defense carry him he should be OK. Besides, if not Kolb they have those other 2 who are fairly young.

They just signed Fitzpatrick to a lucrative extension last year so giving up on him may not be easy.

I look at Wilson's stats and atleast from an INT rate i'd say he's pretty safe with the ball.

Based on 1 season where he had a great supporting cast and the most QB friendly offense in football to work with.

This year he's throw 3 picks in 3 games against sub-standard competition, including 2 in a loss to Rutgers.

Are we just going to ignore the fact that he completed 55% of his passes against Louisiana Monroe? Oh, and got picked off again. Or 51% of his passes against a juggernaut Rutgers squad?

The kid's been bad this year - just bad. All this talk about his phenominal accuracy, rocket arm and leadership qualities are based on 11 games with a super-spread offense and insane skill position players at his disposal (and a not insignificant amount of confirmation bias to boot). And the games I've seen haven't shown me superlative raw talent.

This year, with a more 'normal' offense and merely above average weapons around him, he's underperformed as well as thrown his teammates under the bus.

I just don't understand the undying affection for this kid.

All this talk about collegiate quarterbacks... what the devil for?

He also threw for over 400 yards and 3 TDs in that game...coming off of an injury.

And for such a QB friendly offense...that offense sure was missing him while he was gone.

Um...Alabama will do that to you. Wilson only put up 14 against 'Bama last year with Petrino still at the helm and with better weapons around him.

His offense this year isn't nearly as QB friendly with Petrino gone and it's clearly showing in his statistics. When everything was in his favor last year, 'Bama still curb-stomped them and he still struggled.

The best thing that could've happened to Wilson was to miss that game. They'd have still got blasted and the questions would be even louder. Now he gets to point to a 400 yard passing game against Rutgers (300 of which were by the same WR...progressions indeed) to puff out his chest.

He's been bad this season and watching Cobi Hamilton pile up YAC yards against Rutgers doesn't really change that.

Who's 'thrived' against Alabama...?

Nobody.

So what was your point exactly?

You're the one that claimed his offense sure missed him when he was hurt. I presume you're touting the fact that Arkansas got shut out against Bama as evidence of same. My point is that they could just as easily have been shut out with him at the controls - he wasn't great shakes against them last year.

You're 'defense' here is exactly why I say he's lucky to have missed that game. The unknown actually works to his benefit.

Geno Smith plays in a Dana Holgorson offense that is anything but pro style. There is some offensive talent at WVU as well. Not trying to downplay him or build up Wilson, but things need to remain n perspective when evaluating both of them. Smith is lighting it up against clearly inferior teams. I want to see how he does against a team with a more stout defense if they play against any this year.

Did you watch the end of the Louisiana Monroe game and the Alabama game...or did you just look at the box score?

My argument for Smith has always been that he was actually performing well as a Soph in a very pro-style offense before Holgorsen arrived. He was excellent in 2010 under Stewart (who features a very pro-style system).

Your argument here is a non-starter, IMO. What makes Smith so appealing is that he's done it in multiple systems AND the fact that he's simply more impressive on tape.

I will say that Arkansas has a terrible o line and continuously runs deep crossing and out routes taking forever to develop, getting the qb killed.

But what DJ is saying holds a lot of water. He had a lot of weapons last year. He did get his all American rb back this year but he can't do shit

I was at the MU/GA game for LA-Monroe, all I saw were clips. I saw parts of the Bama game and it was a pretty clear disaster.

I'm not arguing he's not better than his backup (what part of 'good prospect' was missed). I am arguing, however, that he wouldn't have made a difference against Bama and is fortunate to have missed the game.

If this was the pros the turmoil that has surround Arkansas would be an excuse for a star veteran player playing poorly. Why should that not play into the season Wilson is having?

Smith is in a spread type offense, but to be totally honest how different are today's spreads from an nfl system.

It does.

But again - I wasn't impressed with him last season. His stats were fine, but I didn't like what I saw in his game at all.

So when I see the guy struggling, I'll give him some deference for the situation, but it's also going to confirm my thought that he was overrated from the jump.

Don't know, but there are still plenty of those who still knock spread QBs, especially in the media.

OK, fair enough.

When the spread protects a QB from pressure and allows him to sit back and lob shit to receivers less than 15 yards downfield, then it's not very impressive.

Geno Smith has faced terrible teams, but regardless of that he's faced intense pressure in games and still found way to extend plays and make things work nicely.

He faces off against #25-ranked Baylor this Saturday on FX. He could be in for quite a ride in a shootout. I think if he proves he can win games like this consistently, he's absolutely the real deal. And I'm pretty confident he'll do well in this matchup.

Texas and OU will tell a lot - how can he handle premium athletes on the defensive side of the ball?

K-State will tell even more - how can he handle smart, disciplined football teams that are going to be coached to the hilt and won't beat themselves.

We'll know what we need to know about Geno Smith this season, of that I am certain.

The reason the media knocks spread guys is that the spread used to be a more run oriented throw second type teams that hid qbs. Basically the tebow spread.


Now, it does tnd to hurt qbs because they don't really learn the progression side of it

Which is why so many rookies are coming into the league and tearing it up.

Wilson basically threw hos teammates under the bus after missing the Alabama game, too.

Very antileader, if you ask me.

Is our franchise in the position to pass on a player like Wilson because he called out his team after getting shutout? Its not like he punched a teammate or something...

What's the difference? Both of those acts are things a true leader should NEVER do.

Those comments were every bit as bad (or worse) than Cassel saying he "graded out perfectly after throwing 4 picks against Buffalo.

If/when we draft a high first round quarterback, I sure hope he is the kind of player that inspires his teammates, not the opposite.

Nick Foles was in Wilson's position last year and also underwhelmed people in his last season.

Foles didn't throw his team under the bus, but his draft stock dropped pretty far after being thought of as a potential top-10 pick to begin last year. It's the responsibility of the pro team to take this into account when deciding whether or not to draft the guy.

I'm sure Wilson's a hard worker and a good guy, but that's just something you don't do. You can bet your ass pro teams are going to grill him about it when he does his interviews.

Wilson's gotta turn on the jets now, I think. No more pussyfooting around. He's in danger of dropping out way past the top 10 at this rate.

Foles defense and his poor pro day absolutely screwed the shit out of his draft stock worse than a few lines of coke did for Mallett.

Well that didn't take long:

http://walterfootball.com/draft2013.php

Geno #1 to the Browns. He has us taking the unbelievably over-hyped Tyler Wilson.

Fortunately Wilson will be down to a 2nd round draft grade by draft time. Here's hoping Bray enters.

idk i think Holmgren gets at least another year and if he gets another year then so does Weeden and are u really gunna spend back to back first round picks on qb's?

He values the position enough that he was willing to piss away a first rounder on Brandon Weeden.

You bet your ass he'd spend another on a QB

There is no way that the Browns have the #1 pick and pass up on Smith.

Wilson is so hard to figure out. Does he actually suck, or is it a lack of weapons? Same time, he's gone from one bankrupt coach to another. And John L. Smith is crap.

Wilson has a !@#$ing ton of weapons at Arky.

Let's not forget that the recruits there are all WRs that wanted to come play under the most prolific passing HC in the country. Cobi Hamilton is a freakin' baller and he just got his premier RB back.

I'll concede that his situation hasn't been ideal this year with Petrino getting the boot, but don't for a minute give him a pass for lack of weapons - the kid has a ton of toys at his disposal and honestly those are the only things that are making his numbers anywhere near respectable.

That said, he is more polished than Bray (less than Murray). If Pioli's given another shot, I'm sure he'd be more prone to going with Wilson than Bray because the bust potential is lower. Unfortunately, there's no real chance to end up with a true franchise signal caller in Wilson.

Yeah but would they be willing to trade down?

2013's 1st
2013's 3rd
2014's 1st
2014's 4th

for Browns overall 1st?

I just don't see the Browns taking another QB when they have spent on Weeden and McCoy and NEED A TON OF OTHER THINGS.

I can see the chiefs competing with:
Raiders, Jets (have the balls to trade up), Cowboys (have the balls to trade up)

I'm deathly afraid of the Jets now. Their team might be just as bad as we are. At least we have Jamaal Charles. Who do they have? ****ing Bilal Powell?

Plus they've shown to be super-aggressive when it comes to the draft in the past. The Sanchez trade was considered a pretty big deal until RGIII came along. You bet your ass that they would cough up all the picks necessary to go get a real QB.

I mean, we're in just as good shape as they are in terms of the potential to go get our franchise guy. Key difference is none of us have any faith that we'll act on that potential at all.

Oh how fun this offseason will be if that one win against New Orleans proves to be the thing that moves KC out of a position to draft a QB.

Depends on where we pick. If we are selecting in the top 5 this year, that might be enough. From 5-10 we'll need more. Beyond 10th overall, I don't think we have any shot :deevee:

That's okay, though. We'll just have to do what we do best. Lose games.

Has any team in history drafted a quarterback in the first round twice in two drafts?

If it has ever happened once, then I will believe you.

Then why do I get this sinking feeling that we will go on a meaningless 5 - 6 winning streak at the end of the season?!?

Dallas Cowboys

We better lose to Cleveland

I actually think the Browns would be wise to consider a trade-down scenario with us whereby they bank a bunch of 1st round picks and take Bray with our first rounder.

Bray isn't any less talented as a passer than Smith (in fact, I think he's a more talented pure passer). He's just much more raw and has a higher bust potential. If you have a guy like Weeden that can keep the seat warm for 2 years or so while Bray learns (and Bray does need to learn), and you can bank a couple more very high draft picks, I think that's the way to go.

Or you can take the less risky route and just draft Smith. In the end, though, the high risk/high reward scenario of getting Bray and a bunch of talent through the picks, may be just the HR swing that a franchise as downtrodden as the Browns needs to take.

The Cowboys selected Aikman #1 overall in 1989, then selected Steve Walsh #1 overall in the Supplemental Draft the following summer.

Also, keep in mind that with the new Rookie Wage Scale having gone into effect, the most Cleveland would have to shell out for Top 3 QB would be around $4-5 million per year.

If you're a new GM, owner, coaching staff, etc. and Geno Smith is sitting there, are you even thinking about passing him up in favor of Weeden?

If so, you should be fired on the spot.

I would trade those picks this time.

Even though this team will have some holes if you let Cassel and Jackson go you'll save about 15 million plus the 25 you have in cap space. You the cap space to fill some of those holes. The team will be able to compete for the division with a rookie QB and new head coach next year.

Yep. That game could be huge in the race for Geno.

Us getting Geno Smith via a trade with the Browns is entirely dependent on Brandon Weeden's success and growth as a NFL QB.

We best start rooting for Weeden to play well.

You better hope Pioli is fired first...

Weeden, Palmer, and Sanchez need to step up and do well. Gabbert too.

Yup we need Gabbert to start doing good. Dude is awful.

Great points. Yeah, Cleveland is our nemesis. Everyone should bet their mortgages on the Chiefs to win that game.

DNW.

Who we'll end up with if Pioli is picking


http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/0831...ers_d1_576.jpg

YOU GUYS WANTED PLAYERS FROM OUTSIDE THE TREE? WELL ****, I GOT YA A GUY FROM OUTSIDE THE TREE. THERE. YA'LL HAPPY NOW??

The financial commitment to a first round QB over the last 20 years has created scenarios where you have to stick with a firs round QB for at least 3 years.

The new CBA makes taking a first round QB far less financially painful.

The Steelers took Terry Hanratty with their first pick in '69, and Terry Bradshaw with their first pick in '70, so it has been done before.

And he's the brother of Aarron Rodgers, can't miss right?!?

I am way ahead of you on that one: