who cares how long a guy has started. and manning's completion % has gone up a couple of points and last year his INT #s dropped (we'll see if it continues to be low) before that he had 17 18 20, with 24 24 and 23 tds. looks pretty middle of the road to me

Because the Giants run the ball?

And the Giants offense went into a total funk after they lost Burress.

In reality last years stats are questionable to say the least. He played "good" in a great situation. He is a one year starter going back to high school. I really do not see how anyone looking at him objectively can feel certain he is a top flight QB.

The Chiefs GM clearly believes in him and he has first hand knowledge of him. There have been QBs that come out of nowhere but every time they were surrounded with great talent. Time will tell but IMO the jury is still out.

so 297-529 56.1%3336 yards 23 tds 20 ints is better than 301 522 57.7% 3244 yards 24 tds 18 ints? and with that running game.... (another thing you dink cassel for )

wonder who was more important? shouldnt a top 10 qb be able to overcome that? (another thing you say about cassel)

i'm not certain. but based on last years stats(which is right now) he's a top 10 qb right?

Um dude the Patriots ran for over 2000 yards last year...who said they couldn't run it?

Are you really arguing that Matt Cassel is better than Eli Manning?

read much? i never said they couldnt run it. YOU have said that cassel benefited from the run game well so has eli. and all i'm arguing about eli is that YOU and others think WAY too highly of him based on what he has done in his career.

327-516 63.4% 3693 yards 21td 11int

289-479 60.3 3238 yards 21 td 11int


which is better?

Jason this is what I've learned any player that suits up for the Chiefs will be given the benefit of the doubt by you as being able to get it done etc.

I think pretty much 99.9% of people would tell you Eli Manning is better than Cassel. And you pulled out entire year stats when Eli really hit his stride was the 2nd half of the year mainly the playoffs.

Then he carried that over to last year, look how much his stats improved last season.

He wasn't a top 10 QB when last year started he got praise for his playoff and bowl performance and looked to turn a corner he kept it up last year that's why I feel he earned a top 10 spot.

We don't exactly have a great quarterback selection right now, a lot of middle of the roaders. Top 10 is not a great accomplishment. I definitely think, as he has played over the last few years, he is definitely top 10.

Name 10 better. You might be right.....

Peyton Manning, Brees, McNabb, Warner, Cutler, (possibly) Ryan, (possibly) Romo, who else do you think?

Eli was 21-10....not 11.

see post above yours which is better?

If you go back to the previous page I listed off 10.

your right mistype still which was better?

It is not completely about stats you can ask milkman on that point, and as I said I will not ever put a 1 year starter in the top 10 for QB's that position requires consistency.

If it didn't I'd list Matt Ryan in the top 10 but I won't do that till he has another good year.

No IMO he is going under center with a vastly inferior team and I believe several backups could have played as well as he did last year in that situation. The thing you have going for you is the owner and GM disagree with me. Them against a football fan on a message board. It is a safe bet they know more than I do. I think he is a reach they don't, time will tell.

Damn that sounds like something I said...

Either way I can not believe I am having an argument that involves someone trying to say Matt Cassel is better than Eli Manning.

I don't even think most people on this forum would agree with that.

I just went ahead and skipped to the end.

peyton, brees, mcnabb, cutler, rivers, brady, warner, roethlisberger, cassel(by stats last year for sure, and that was eli's best year ever) ryan

well this IS coming from a raider fan correct?

And what if Cassel regresses?

This is why I don't put 1 year starters in the top 10 at QB, possible 1 year wonder, regression. It's a position that requires consistency to be at the top.

funny eli's team wins a super bowl and now he's a great qb.

Yeah, I see it. I would agree with that. I still think that Carson, restored will be top 10. I would have been doing cart wheels if we would have gotten Carson Palmer, but that's just me. I think he is system impaired and perpertually running for his life.

You're right.

Stats are irrelevent without context.

However, I will say that Eli Manning is the other QB that is easily replacable among your list of top ten QBs.

I can't see any QB at this point who would replace him, but should Rogers, Ryan, and, yes, Cassel all have a another good year, they could knock him off that list.

The fact is, outside the top 4, maybe 5, the remaing names on that list are not all that good.

no it doesnt. we arent talking all time here. we are talking right now.

Jason is going to skewer you...he thinks Cassel is better than Palmer.

We don't have enough track record on Cassel to know what he really is yet.

huh? what has he ever won? has he won a playoff game? he has had 2 of the BEST wrs in the game and still didnt do jack shit(more cassel bashes)

I think Manning is ascending he's improving a lot, and I'd wager he plays with the worst group of WR's of any of the top of the line QB's.

The Giants have a lot riding on Hakeem Nicks this year.

I totally agree about the stats thing too. If you're on a team with a lousy defense, you have to throw the ball a lot. That's a stat padder. Kitna was not a top 10 quarterback, but he was constantly throwing the ball after the first 5 minutes because the Lions were always behind. Good fantasy player.

ROFL he had plax. when plax was gone he regressed. but a top flight QB shouldnt right, i mean you and others have said that if cassel doesnt have a monster year the move was totally bad. so in your opinion a top flight qb should be able to overcome anything right, throw it catch it run it make all the defensive and special teams tackles

last year?

Calm down, I just like the guy. But when you've got no line, even with having two great receivers, you still have to be spot on. I have seen him make some throws live that I haven't seen anybody else make.

Oh for the love of christ, I give up.

I do love Jason's double talk though "What has Palmer ever won? "Just because Eli won a bowl?"

You don't get to make contradicting statements like that pick one...but we can say this. Carson Palmer took the ****ing Bengals to the playoffs. Cassel didn't make the playoffs with a team that went 16-0 the previous year.

No, no, a few years ago. Just making a point about stats and whatnot.

i'm calm, we're good man, i agree that he can throw, but the same argument could be made about cassel, line bad 2 great recievers

i know just ****ing with you:D year before last IIRC.

Yes and I think most who have interacted with me here will agree that I am not a homer and make observations as I see them. Of course I hope he does not fair well. I catch a ton of flack from Raiders fans because I take the same approach when accessing the team I root for.

If I was looking to run smack there is plenty of material available regarding Cassel. I have been honest on how I feel about him as a player. I have stated why I have doubts if you perceive this as an attack on you or Cassel that in not my intention.

mecca i am sitting here using everything YOU use all the time, you double talk, see how it works.

I didn't realize that his line was bad really (cassel), but being hit as much as GC says he was impresses me about his toughness.

If we want to use stats as the argument take Palmer's last 2 full seasons. I didn't put him in the top 10 due to injury and I've seen Jason and Hootie both bag on him his stats are off the damn board.

It's like moving the goal posts "well he has stats but doesn't win" "oh he won well hell what else" I don't think anyone thinks Carson Palmer is why the Bengals don't win. In contract they went from being a general 6-8 win team with him to being an abomination without him.

with you i have no problem should have put a big smile on that post:D there you go.

I think Manning was ascending, but I don't know that he hasn't hit a plateau.

I think he is about wher he will be, a fringe top 10 QB who can fall out of that level if a couple of QBs put together a couple of good seasons back to back.

I don't totally agree with Jason, but I think there is some merit to his point that Manning shouldn't have declined nearly as much as he did with the loss of Burress.

There is just something lacking in Manning's makeup that leads me to believe he's never going to be much more than he is right now.

the line was BAD for about 10 games and got a little better after that, like i said before i took the time to go back and watch every game from last year. THATS what changed my opinion of him, mecca obviously has not.

Cool well this Raiders fan will get the heck out of the way and let you guys carry on :)

he seems to just go with the flow sometimes. and the argument i used about plax is just throwing what these guys say about cassel back at them

Well I think Palmer's better but I'm not going to put him in the top 10 after only playing in a couple games last year. I'm giving Brady the benefit because of how much far ahead of everyone he was before his injury outside of Peyton.

The hate some people have for Palmer amazes me.

i dont hate him, just dont think he's as good as you do.

You should go pull his stats since you were big on doing that a minute ago...

Carson Palmer is physically everything people want in a QB, he has the stupid arm and can make ridiculous throws that leave peoples jaws dropping.

Palmer, before his injuries, was a top 3 QB in the NFL easily.

1380-2165 63.7 15360 yards 107td-67 int, and has also had a history of injuries. if you average it out that s almost identical to cassel's last year

.....

2006-07 Cincinnati 16 93.9 324 520 62.3 4035 252.2 7.8 28 13

2007-08 Cincinnati 16 86.7 373 575 64.9 4131 258.2 7.2 26 20

Yea I don't think Cassel is averaging those numbers...

We can all have our views although I think Palmer will be back in a big way this year.

for his CAREER he has averaged about the same as cassel. thats what was said. YOU seem to use career accomplishments as the basis for top 10 right? and those were for 06 and 07, you seem to try and show like that happened in 08. 08 he was hurt

Look now is the time for people to get excited about the team. no one wants to hear a lot of negative bullshit. lets get behind these guys and try to at least enjoy the ride we are getting ready to go on, for better or worse

Uh no, saying a guy has to do it more than once and saying career are not the same thing.

Did I list him in the top 10 no I did not. I fully suspect he'll be back there after the year though.

Carson Palmer has played at a higher level for a longer period of consistently than Cassel he is coming off an injury so I list him at 10-15, I have Cassel in that range for only being a 1 year starter.

Being realistic is not being negative, no one should build their hopes to stupid levels so they can be all pissed off when it doesn't happen.

who gets pissed? not me. i just want to actually enjoy the season. good or bad i still enjoy watching the team that i love. i may not realize it that day or the next but i always do within a couple of days

and mecca you are negative about almost everything the team does.

There are going to be people that think the Chiefs are going to win 8-10 games that lose their ****ing minds on here and want Tyler Thigpen to play.

I don't expect Cassel to put up a great year which has a lot to do with the lack of talent the Chiefs have. But some people won't be forgiving the first year Trent Green was here people hated him.

Honest opinion and being negative are not the same, just because I don't flip my opinion on players because they end up on the Chiefs doesn't make me negative.

And anyway the entire time you've posted here the Chiefs have been an awful team what do you want, me to say all the scrubs are good?

I had no idea that Jason watched all of the Patriot games...that's impressive to me. I'm sure other guys did the same. I don't have that much exposure to Cassel. I agree with him in being positive, totally. I do hope that fans will give him at least a give him a while (like a few seasons) to work in the kinks out before calling for Thigpen. The same goes for Haley and Pioli. This is a total revamping. We gotta give space for them to built continuity.

LOL, I give it a couple of games since talk radio is all about calling the Chiefs a contender and saying 8 wins or they'll be disappointed.

He is 27 years old so he needs to develop a hell of a lot faster than a draft pick though.

Neither should they place their expectations unreasonably low so as to never be excited about potential.

I haven't exactly agreed with much Mecca has said. But one area we do agree on.

At 2-14 the Chiefs sucked. And with their talent level and schedule 5-11 would be a great season. Give it time people. If you are expecting 8-8 this year or better you are setting yourselves up.
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i for one have never put any expected win total out there for this season, not seriously at least

If you don't think people are gonna flip the **** out early in the year considering what the schedule is, you don't know this forum very well.

i did. after we traded for him i wanted to know and see for myself just what exactly we were getting. i felt better after actually watching him. people here act as though he can throw 20 yards max. that couldnt be further from the truth. and you can ask anyone that actually watched the games and throughout the beginning to middle of the season moss dogged it. when it appeared that MAYBE they would have a shot he played better. still even then he was lazy on some routes that werent supposed to go his was. Which is funny because mecca has said he was a one read guy, well if that was true and the play was designed away from moss and moss wasnt running full speed, when cassel went through his progressions and threw the ball to moss wouldnt the ball be overthrown? you know cassel is expecting one speed+ moss is running slower= overthrown ball right? watch the games you will see it.

you act as though the schedule automatically means losses. not true. last year i said before the season we would give the pats all they wanted( actually i said we would beat them) you and many others made fun of me, what happened? we just about got em. should have actually. THATS WHY THEY PLAY THE GAME!!!

You play to win the game! Lol

Baltimore. San Diego. The entire NFL East. If the Chiefs go 2-6 the first half it will be a miracle of epic porportions.
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could be true, but every year some team is written off and suprises. who's that team this year? not saying definitively its us, but why not? nows the time for optimism. and like i said in the nfl any team can win on any day

No dude...I'll take your word for it. I got a business and 4 kids and need guys to give me the briefing. I'm glad that you took the time to watch it, that helps me some. He has to have talent. You don't go to USC now if you don't. They have the pick of the litter. The Patriots know that enough to draft a backup, that never started in college. That's bizarre to me.

Why not? Cuz they still suck. Even the Patriots only went 5-11 the first year of the change in doing things.
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i have a business and 3 kids of my own. but by the way some of these guys were talking about him i HAD to find out for myself. i spent a lot of time at night after the kids went to bed to watch that stuff:D

whatever dont you have some ROR ballwashing to do?

Now Cassel committed to USC before the run of top talent. He was something like the 8th or 10th QB in recruiting and a top 100 player. He got beat out by Leinart who was only a 3 star guy.

I believe he was in Carroll's first recruiting class but he committed to SC before his senior year so he was I believe recruited before Carroll was hired.

ROFL see you are still trying to put him down for some reason. why else say what you just said?

In other words your bowels are empty.

You've filled the bowl with your runny ideas filled with pieces of corn.

Now go wipe your mouth.

Hmmm. That was fun.
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How is that putting him down that's what happened....because the perception of USC today and USC in the year 2000 were not remotely the same.

nope in other words i think you are a jackass.

just that it didnt really need to be said except for the fact that you want to act like he's not that talented.