My point is we can’t replace him while he is holding out. We get 1.1 million per game but can’t use it to bring in a free agent while he is sitting out. He’s screwing us and sitting on his ass laughing his head off.

Beach better trade his ass or restructure somebody’s contract to free up some cap space so he can bring Carlos and another FA or we are good and proper ****ed. :mad:

Then we should have traded him in the off-season regardless of his demands? Even if he was asking for 20mil, if DTs fall off after 30, why is this even a conversation?

The thing that irritates me the most and grows by the day is the fact we traded an elite offensive weapon last year to basically facilitate this deal and now we may not be with either for much longer…

Yeah, it's a really bizarre move. You're making it quite a bit easier for the team to justify going nuclear if it comes down to it, and those options won't be fun for old CJ.

This is why you picked the correct moniker

How did we get to this point LMAO

Jones not being on the roster makes it tougher for certain and I WANT him back at a reasonable cost, but let me ask you this.

Who are the top 5 defenses in football and how many have a truly top 5 interior defensive lineman? The answer is one of them.

SF
Dallas
Philly
Jets - *Quinton Williams
Broncos/Buffalo ?

The arguably worst defense in the NFL heading into this season, the Rams have Aaron Donald and well not much else.

I think our defense is better than advertised even without Jones as long as they stay healthy. I just think we have to figure out a way to get some good pass rush with our DE's which I believe is why we drafted DE the last 2 years.

That's called, "we better be putting up 30+ points per game"

He could have made everyone switch to his side if he just skipped training camp, played out the year and then did this holdout shit next year if they put the tag on him. He’s going the Bell route after saying he won’t play for another team. Just makes him look like an asshole.

I was all for trading him after the season…once you’ve done it with Hill and show the propensity to trade a guy like that, anyone not named Mahomes could go.

Veach mishandled it IMO and then Jones and his agents completely changed their tune…

Nah, i don't think so.

The Jones analysis is independent of the Hill analysis. Fans lumped them together but I think it's clear the organization never has.

They moved Hill because he wanted more than they wanted to pay because they felt they could build a dynamic offense without him. They were proven correct. They didn't move Hill because they wanted to save that money to sign Jones.

They moved Hill because they didn't think he was necessary and the ROI wasn't there.

So Jones must be asking for something north of 30M.

Welp, gonna have to score a lot of points this season.

It's not like they drop off a cliff. Letting Jones play out the final year of his deal while he's still capable of relatively elite play and recouping some draft assets afterwards sounds better to me than resetting the market for 3 or 4 years and having to pay it well into his 30s when the decline is starting to get more noticeable.

What legacy though? He's still about 30ish sacks from making the HOF. He has two rings already. He should seek the max he can on his potentially final big contract.

This is the way. Been saying this the last few weeks to people. It becomes a win-win for the team to do it this way.

If losing Chris Jones means we can't win the SB this year, then we have a lot bigger problems than Chris Jones. Look I get it, it would suck if he's not here, but I'm really coming around to the idea of perspective. No one guy (save Mahomes) is worth that much to a team all by himself. If Jones were out on injury, I'd still believe we could win without him. It can't be all about one guy on the interior of the defensive line being the lynch pin to a successful season.

Perspective man. I hope he comes back, but I'm not gonna say it's all over without him. By a long shot.

I like to think of it this way. What if:

A) He wasn't on the roster at all
B) He did go to training camp, and he either a) got injured until week 8, or b) did this

In either scenario, he's just not there. Like Reid says, the game goes on, and you just have to adjust. Just the way it is. Next man up, go with what you got.

You're God damn right gif

Yes. I would love for KC to keep him but:

1. He appears to want more than KC should give him, especially considering the likelihood of his performance dropping during a portion of that contract.

2. The C and G are both ascending and form 2/3rds of the core of one of the best interior lines in the NFL. You probably get both of them for what Jones costs you.

I am all for paying elite pass rushers, but Veach can't just give in to the demands of Jones if he is truly being unreasonable.

I'm standing by 'bad agent'.

He has a relatively unknown agent who's trying to use Jones to prove his value to other potential clients. And in Jones he has a willing participant.

Y'all ever watch Ballers? This is Reggie getting Vernon's ear and talking him out of signing that extension because "We have our number and that's not enough for our plans..."

Buffalo and Cincy both have elite QBs and I bet they would kill for our line right now.

Even the biggest Veach detractors surely would admit by now that given $30mm in cap space to work with, and/or additional picks that he will be able to acquire young and ready talent to stay on top. If CJ's absence causes them a SB appearance in 2024, I am confident they will be in 3 of the next 5 anyway because of the Reid/Mahomes/Veach talents

Or they are waiting on camp cuts to see if they can snag someone. If not, Dunlap should still be there.

Sounds like the Chiefs are preparing for life after Jones

came here to post that same thing

It's over

CJ ****ed this up so bad I feel awful for him

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F4OiBKrX...bp&name=medium

All those defenses have elite players in the front 7.

WTF gif

They can have a successful season without jones.

They’d have what DJ calls a punchers chance to make some playoff noise but losing your best defender in this situation…..yeah they ain’t what they were

Andy doesn’t get too fired up often. But if there is one thing that pisses him off, it is hold outs. Even for a day in TC

It’s pretty clear they are extremely far off, and Veach isn’t going to budge. It’s pretty clear the philosophy going forward is that as long as Mahomes is upright we have a chance. And we are going to invest heavily in the offensive line. Which is going to leave less money to make us a more complete team.

The shit thing is that they traded Tyreek to do this and now this happens.

Traded the wrong guy

Goddamn I hate drama queens.

It’s never worked before for other teams with elite qbs.

They can’t do it alone

The Chiefs have Mahomes/Kelce/Reid, the best O-line Mahomes has ever had, I’d argue the most complete WR room he’s ever had, and talented players all over the defense with or without Jones….

“Punchers chance” is absurd….

LMAO No they didn't. They were perfectly content to sign Hill until the Adams deal reset the market and they ended up too far apart to compromise.

Jones' production in a non-contract year is not irreplaceable. Pressure on the QB will have to be generated in other ways, but this isn't season-ruining.

This is another reason that Frank Clark contract was the stupidest decision in Veach's time here. Imagine if we didn't have $7.5mil being used up in cap space this year for a player that's on the Broncos. We could have used that to split the difference on whatever Chris is asking or if not that, used it on a player that can offset him potentially not being with the team during his hold out.

I hope I’m wrong, but let’s not expect too much for trade comp if/when that happens.

He’s a DT approaching 30 and wants big (ridiculous) money. Don’t expect a ton in return for that.

Not at all. Jones can still sign for what Veach is offering and all will be good. It's only over if Jones refuses to budge on his demands.

What if Jones was signed long term and suffered a season ending injury? They would still have to overcome that.

Of course they are. Chris Jones was a top-3 defensive player in the league last year. He made everyone else on that DL better than they’d almost certainly be in isolation. He absolutely was crucial in a number of games and a number of situations for us.

To say no one guy is worth that much to a team? Of course they can be. We won a SB by the slimmest of margins. We got the 1 seed via the slimmest of margins. He anchored our defense.

I’m not saying there’s no world where we win a SB without Chris Jones this year, but our odds go down meaningfully. We weren’t that far ahead of the pack that we can afford to lose our best defensive player without the ability to suitably replace him and expect to be the same.

I highly doubt that makes a difference regarding Jones' contract. What it most likely revolves around is guaranteed money and outs in the contract. If I'm Veach I have a huge contract on paper with outs in years 3-5 (or whatever the length would be). If I am Jones, I know this and want a ton guaranteed or a contract that makes him harder to cut as he ages. The Clark money is irrelevant to Jones' contract this year.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Browns have been ahead of the curve on this for years.</p>&mdash; Marcus Whitman (@TFG_Football) <a href="https://twitter.com/TFG_Football/status/1693766280459735287?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 21, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

The Browns are clearing space to alter Garretts number each year, it's actually brilliant.

That's additional money that can be used to sweeten up that guarantee...

Isn't that what Mahomes deal was supposed to help us do?

I doubt a one time $7.5 million is all that separates them. I would bet it's structure as much if not more than straight numbers.

No, it's not the same as creating space to roll it over to make the actual hit less, I don't think the Chiefs have really exploited that to much to be honest.

The Browns aren't 'ahead of the curve' nor is this a novel thought.

It's something the Saints have been doing for a decade+ and yeah, you can keep on pushing, but the Saints have had nasty cap sheets for a long time and sooner or later you do run out of rope.

Moreover, you lose leverage with the player. Suddenly they're sitting on a $50 million cap charge one year and you say "Hey, can we get you to reduce that to $15 million" and they say "Oh sure - if you add 2 years at $20 million/season on the back of it..."

It's okay to do here and there. It's NOT a good operating philosophy, IMO. It narrows your path to contention and puts a TON of pressure on the front office to continue to add quality players through the draft.

yes.

And they use it as needed.

That's why I say this has nothing to do with Hill. It has nothing to do with Clark. The Chiefs absolutely COULD make a Jones deal work - probably even at $30 million.

They don't want to because it's simply not smart.

They've placed a value on him, Jones isn't happy with that valuation, and he's overplaying his hand, IMO.

Ehh. He’d quite easily get top 15 pick in the draft value.

Which is roughly what Tyreek fetched. At roughly the same age, and at a better aging position

Yeah I wish we had some leaks as to what was being offered and what was being demanded.

I do think that if the Chiefs were making a substantial effort to give him a good number and it was rebuffed, they would have leaked what they were offering. Like they did with the OBJ negotiation.

The Saints problem is they refuse to blow it up even when it's obvious their window closed. Had they just ate it for a year when Brees retired they could have fixed the problem but they refuse.

As I said earlier I'd rather have a young and elite duo of Creed and Smith protecting Mahomes than maybe 2 years of elite D-line play from Jones. I think they're move valuable to the team's overall success.

Creed and Trey together likely won't sniff what Jones is asking for.

We also went through the entire playoff run with our QB on one leg which without a doubt made every game more difficult.

We lost most of our WR core in the AFCCG on top of it.

So yea, if everything goes to shit we have to scramble to win a game. But lets not act like we struggled just to be struggling.

WR room SHOULD be deeper this year. OL should be better this year. We may have to score a few more points but we SHOULD be able to.

Part of the problem with blowing it up in their situation is that it will likely be a 2 year process to get back to a decent cap situation, and with the NFC South being as weak as it is, they can reasonably make the playoffs. Hard to blow it up when your division is easily the weakest in the league and a ticket to the playoffs is easy.

I think they leaked that stuff with the Brown Jr situation because, while they were willing to keep him, they knew his demands were ridiculous and they were more than willing to let him walk. He did and the league humbled him as KC knew they would. Jones is different as I truthfully believe they want to keep him at the right price. Leaking numbers and demands only creates more bad blood and lessens the chance at a deal more.

I agree that if we knew the numbers it would be easier to know for sure.

The hard thing to see is what Jones thinks he's doing on his end.

KC won't go to the dollar amount he wants? OK. Your options are:

1) Go kick ass while clearing $20M in cash in a contract year (with a better supporting cast around you) and then cash in next season with a team that WILL give you what you want (either on a tag and trade or a straight FA walk, because the team can't REALLY afford to keep you on the tag).
2) Hold out of preseason, costing yourself about $2M, then go kick ass in a contract year after getting into shape. Probably costs you a little bit in what you get if your numbers are down, but not a LOT.
3) HAve a significant, protracted holdout. Come into the season mid-year, have to play your way into shape, and believe that you can make enough happen in the postseason to get the big deal you're seeking.
4) Sit out the whole year and not have your year of service time recognized. Get traded next year and hope some team is willing to give you the deal you want when you'll have 18 months between games.

How he is trending towards (3) is wild to me.

They protect the most important player on the team, genius.

Are you secretly Jim Irsay?

Is it worth it to keep kicking that can over and over to sneak into the playoffs and get wrecked?

And they were also still doing that when Tampa was a legit contender with Brady, it just makes very little sense.

I think the chance of a long-term contract is over, but what does either side do *this* year? If Jones holds out he costs himself serious money. Do the Chiefs want a disgruntled player? Is there a trade market given his contract demands?

The only way 3 remotely makes sense is if he thinks he can't replicate last season...has some type of body issue that he knows means his career is close to over, or legit cares about nothing but the money at this point and thinks his best days are behind him so playing could lower his value.

I sincerely doubt that, but absolutely hope you’re right

That suggests we should trade CJ and use the cap savings to re-sign Dunlap.

Chris you have 1 hour to sign the paper or I'm going to remain pissed off!

If the Chiefs feel it’s something like Creed and Humphrey or Jones, I’m taking the OL.

They're also significantly younger, you win with rookie and 2nd contracts, big 3rd contracts is how you get ****ed.

I think 3 makes since if you really want to make sure your off the team in 2024. You get your service time and sends a clear message to the team your done. Also lessons chance of injury by 50%. There is no way the team does not get him out of town in 2024.

Otherwise he may find himself back being tagged. The team will be under the same impression he will hold out of training camp but eventually report.

But yes he knows he has 1 contract left for 3-4 year deal in him if he does not get hurt. Also probably clear by now the Chiefs probably will not be paying his amount.

But if he believed any of those things, he would have signed the Chiefs' offer.

The only explanation is neither Chris Jones nor his agent know what the hell they are doing and had no backup plan in the event the Chiefs didn't give-in to his contract demands.

Edit: Players and agents trying to squeeze every last dime out of the Chiefs in a game of chicken is bad strategy win the Chiefs have Patrick Mahomes, and they can't seem to figure that out.

You risk no one paying you if you sit real games to be honest...I get the playing hardball to not get tagged but I don't think the Chiefs can realistically pay his tag number which is like 33 million dollars.

I guess we can change the meaning of "BDJ" to Big Dumb Jones. Cause he is looking really stupid right now and this whole thing is a pride issue.

He isn't going to make up the money he is about to lose.

You would have thought the obj situation would have taught them something.

Chiefs have mahomes and are kings of the mountain. We can win without you Chris. Veach knows it and won't cave.

His PYS will drop roughly 1.1M for each game he misses (got further clarification after looking last night). If he does sit till week 8, His PYS for the tag next year will be in the ballpark of 20.6M, so his tag will be MUCH more affordable. Probably the average of the Top 5 guys, so 24.5 to 25.5M, somewhere in there.

Anyone else notice Spags utilizing Chenal as an edge rusher this preseason? We've seen him do this before with Gay as well.

Have a feeling we're gonna see a metric **** load of blitz package designs this year.

I didn’t even think about that. Wonder if that’s how itll really work.

If he chooses option 3 he's probably going to hurt his back about 2 games into playing meaningful snaps. Stupid business decision.

Are we sure on that? We know KC gets a salary cap credit for next year in that scenario.

So say he holds out 8 games. Chiefs get $9M in cap credit towards 24 + it lowers his franchise tag number so much it isn’t a problem for KC to tag him at it?

That significantly reduces the players leverage on the holdout.

Jones is playing 69D Chess

Welp, i guess we're going to see what the defense looks like without a reliable interior pass rush for the first 8 weeks. Should be interesting. Especially the NYJ game Week 4. Hopefully their OL won't have fully gelled yet.

I have no doubt we'll find other ways to get pressure. As long as the guys in the middle can hold on run defense we'll be fine.

Would they go to an odd front in this scenario?

Chenal-Tranquill-Bolton-Gay could be interesting.

Not sure the Es are stout enough without Omenihu for that. Guess they could run Danna-Shelton-Karlaftis but that seems risky.